Going for Gold: Start Locations

[CrazyG]

I would think there should be fewer civs with a coastal start bias. Specifically civs without coastal synergy such as Korea, Ottomans, and Byzantium shouldn't. Sometimes Carthage or Polynesia don't start on water, its usually because there are too many civs with a coastal start bias. I can recall a game where Korea began with coast but England was heavily landlocked.

some very thematic start biases (eg. Egypt, Arabia) still have some synergy.

Egypt does not have a desert start bias, just FYI. His bias is avoid forests.

 

[chicorbeef]

I would think there should be fewer civs with a coastal start bias. Specifically civs without coastal synergy such as Korea, Ottomans, and Byzantium shouldn't. Sometimes Carthage or Polynesia don't start on water, its usually because there are too many civs with a coastal start bias. I can recall a game where Korea began with coast but England was heavily landlocked.

Egypt does not have a desert start bias, just FYI. His bias is avoid forests.

According to the table Luka posted, Egypt has 3 biases-avoid forest/jungle, desert bias, and river bias. Some civs have plains/grassland bias. Songhai has River/Avoid Tundra bias. Basically civs can have multiple biases.

That's partly why I'm proposing to remove bias off all those civs Luka mentioned as not needing them, as well as a few more (eg. Rome, Persia, America, Germany, Indonesia, Ottomans).

 

[CrazyG]

According to the table Luka posted, Egypt has 3 biases-avoid forest/jungle, desert bias, and river bias. Some civs have plains/grassland bias. Songhai has River/Avoid Tundra bias. Basically civs can have multiple biases.

That's partly why I'm proposing to remove bias off all those civs Luka mentioned as not needing them, as well as a few more (eg. Rome, Persia, America, Germany, Indonesia, Ottomans).

Posted where? I'm pretty sure this is wrong.

 

[chicorbeef]

Posted where? I'm pretty sure this is wrong.

In this thread, on the page before this one. He said he looked at Gazebo's ZIP file.

 

[CrabHelmet]

I agree with @CrazyG - I was having a problem trying to get coastal starts as Polynesia recently because of this issue. The Ottomans are especially egregious, since the early Ottoman polity was not coastal, and only became coastal by conquering Byzantine cities.

 

[CrazyG]

According to G's excel file, Ottomans aren't appearing on coast due to a bias.

In this thread, on the page before this one. He said he looked at Gazebo's ZIP file.

I see now, thank you.

There are 12 civs with a Start_Along_Ocean bias (what we sometimes call a coastal start bias). I'm going to sort them from highest coastal priority to lowest, in terms of unique traits.

These are the civs, which for gameplay reasons prefer to begin the game on coast
Polynesia..............entire identity is water related
Carthage............... entire identity is water related
England.................both the UA and UB need water
Portugal.................the Feitoria needs water to be built, UA also likes coast
Denmark................jelling stones like coast, UA benefits coast to some extent
Netherlands............the unique unit is a ship. Otherwise, zero coastal synergy

These are civs that currently have an along ocean bias, but don't have significant synergy with water.
Indonesia................the civ itself has zero coastal synergy, but there is flavor for an island nation beginning on coast
Japan ................the civ itself has zero coastal synergy, but there is flavor for an island nation beginning on coast
Spain ...................the civ has some exploring synergy, but you don't need a coastal capital to use it
Byz ......................the only flavor is the capital city
Korea ......................this civ would probably prefer not to begin on coast. I don't care if Korea is a penninsula, this should be changed.

I would personally drop the along ocean for all of these, but I can see an argument for Japan or Indonesia keeping it.


Then there is Venice, who gets an even higher priority to be on coast. He probably needs it less than Carthage or Polynesia, but he is also just a weird civ.

 

[CrabHelmet]

I disagree re: Byzantium. Its maritime nature was extremely important to its historical development and culture. I agree on the rest.

However, I would go further on one. Polynesia needs to join Venice in the high priority code category. Non-coastal Polynesia may as well not have a UA or UI.

 

[CrazyG]

I disagree re: Byzantium. Its maritime nature was extremely important to its historical development and culture. I agree on the rest.

However, I would go further on one. Polynesia needs to join Venice in the high priority code category. Non-coastal Polynesia may as well not have a UA or UI.

I mean you can make this case for so many nations that have a coastline though, many of whom have never had a coastal bias in civ 5 at all.

Really Byz has a coastal bias because its unique unit used to be a boat.

 

[CrabHelmet]

I mean you can make this case for so many nations that have a coastline though, many of whom have never had a coastal bias in civ 5 at all.

Really Byz has a coastal bias because its unique unit used to be a boat.

I don't think you can. What's important is not that the nation was coastal, because any Civ can become coastal by settling or conquering a coastal city. What is important is that the origin and/or capital of the Civ was coastal. Take Spain - it's a Civ with a proud maritime history... but Oveido, the capital of the Kingdom of Asturias, was not coastal, Leon, the capital of the Kingdom of Leon, was not coastal, and Madrid, the capital of Spain proper, was not coastal. They became coastal by taking out the taifa states, culminating in the conquest of Granada. Consequently, VP Spain can evoke the maritime history of Spain without needing a coastal bias, same as Spain did, by conquering their way to the sea.

Byzantium is different, though. You can't possibly begin to understand Byzantium without understanding Constantinople, the Queen of All the World, and you can't understand Constantinople without understanding the vital role it held as the gateway over the Bosphorus and the lynchpin of the Mediterranean. A non-coastal Constantinople is just... wrong.

 

[CrazyG]

Byzantium is different, though. You can't possibly begin to understand Byzantium without understanding Constantinople, the Queen of All the World, and you can't understand Constantinople without understanding the vital role it held as the gateway over the Bosphorus and the lynchpin of the Mediterranean. A non-coastal Constantinople is just... wrong.

Sounds like a great argument for a chokepoint bias, but it doesn't exist. I don't think moving her towards what will usually be just a normal coastline represents this.

Nothing else in the toolkit of Byzantium supports this either. Furthermore, having a coastal capital doesn't make it a trade center. I distinctly remember playing the Mediteranean map before and trying to create a trade city on the Bosporus strait. It didn't work at all, nothing in VP encourages a trading post to be on a chokepoint.

I think keeping her bias as along ocean is wrong, we shouldn't half-ass representing a great capital city. That along ocean bias usually just puts along a flat coast somewhere. You can recreate Constantinople there either. If you want recreate Constantinople, you really need to take tradition and make a powerful city. I would probably take tradition more often with Byz if she didn't have a coast bias.

 

[CrabHelmet]

I'd rather just drop Korea, Japan, and Spain, I think. None of the three had coastal capitals, and having a coastal capital doesn't guarantee being an island for Japan. Then there's 9 coastal civs from 43. Suppose there are 4 coastal starts on the average Standard/Continents map. For a coastal-bias Civ to end up non-coastal, you therefore need 5 or more out of the 9 to appear in your 8 Civs. The odds of that are 0.55%.

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

I think Spain should retain the coastal bias, given that it can buy ships with faith, and you'll usually want your capital to be able to buy ships with faith since it most likely will have the most XP giving buildings.

Indonesia, Japan, Byz and Korea - I'd favour them losing the coastal start bias.

 

[tu_79]

I think Spain should retain the coastal bias, given that it can buy ships with faith, and you'll usually want your capital to be able to buy ships with faith since it most likely will have the most XP giving buildings.

Indonesia, Japan, Byz and Korea - I'd favour them losing the coastal start bias.

Not necessarily. The National wonder that grants moral only affects land units.
Spain won't be very punished by not having a coastal capital. It's a civ that expands wide, so it has high chances of settling one of the secondary cities by the coast, and then it can faith-purchase naval units, so it does not even need to be a strong city.
CrabHelmet is right. Even in the time of the Kingdom of Aragon (the real naval power in Spain), its capital was in Zaragoza, while the fleet stationed in Barcelona.

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

Your capital is the most likely to build St. Basil's (free Order) or Brandeburg (+15 xp to all units created there), plus it's usually the first city to build armories, military academies... That's why as Spain I prefer my capital to be on the coast.

 

[CrabHelmet]

Honestly, Spain is one of the best Civs in VP. I don't really mind if the coastal bias being removed is a very, very slight nerf. That's pretty acceptable to me, especially as it is more flavoursome.

 

[Omen of Peace]

I also vote for Spain remaining on the coast because of its UA.
Otherwise we'll get people complaining they have heavily landlocked starts and can't use the UA fully.

 

[tu_79]

I also vote for Spain remaining on the coast because of its UA.
Otherwise we'll get people complaining they have heavily landlocked starts and can't use the UA fully.

Spain? Landlocked? Have you played it?

 

[Omen of Peace]

I have. I crushed the heathens again 2-3 weeks back.

 

[tu_79]

I have. I crushed the heathens again 2-3 weeks back.

Then you must know Spain can't be landlocked. Only Carthage and China can rush their cities that fast, so even if the coast is three cities away, you get there. Even when you can't, it's not that difficult to open a way.

 

[Omen of Peace]

While the post was in part tongue-in-cheek (since we've had complaints about Polynesia and remarks about heavily landlocked starts), I stand by it. It makes sense that a civ with a naval component to its UA has a coastal start; you have to think of newcomers and casuals, not only about what VP veterans can do with the civ.