Going for Gold: Start Locations

[Owlbebach]

Looking at the starting biases, I'd change the Inca's to Hills/Mountains. I've seen plenty of games where the Inca's capital lies far from any mountain range.

I always thought that Inca already has it. He is very frequently born in Mountains. However, not every time, and not having Mountins nearby is a disaster for Inca

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

According to the first page of this thread, it's just hills. I tried it out today, started 13 times as the Inca, only had a mountain range in one of those starts within 7 tiles of my starting location. In all others, it was either no mountains or 1-2 mountains. So I think it should be changed to hills/mountains or even just mountains, if only one is possible.

 

[pineappledan]

Same problem as the Aztec/Lake thing. There's nothing in the code that allows you to select near a terrain feature like a lake or mountain.

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

Hills are a terrain feature, just like mountains, yet it's possible to have a "hills" starting bias. So I hope it'd be possible to have a mountain/hills starting bias.

 

[Gazebo]

Hills are a terrain feature, just like mountains, yet it's possible to have a "hills" starting bias. So I hope it'd be possible to have a mountain/hills starting bias.

Mountains are not terrain features. Not exactly, anyways. They're pseudo features.

Not possible in code.


G

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

Thanks for the clarification!

Do you think there's any "simple" way around this to have the Incas start more often next to clusters of mountains?

 

[tu_79]

Thanks for the clarification!

Do you think there's any "simple" way around this to have the Incas start more often next to clusters of mountains?

Tune your map with more mountains (earth age) and use a map with nice mountain chains.

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

I thought about that, but that would mean everyone in the game starts in a more mountainous area, which would give the Inca an "unfair" advantage. I'd prefer a solution that gives only the Inca a more mountainous start.

 

[tu_79]

I thought about that, but that would mean everyone in the game starts in a more mountainous area, which would give the Inca an "unfair" advantage. I'd prefer a solution that gives only the Inca a more mountainous start.

It's not that radical. You get more hills and less flat lands, but it's not all hills.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

I think there's a huge difference in starting locations. Starting next to Coral/Pearls/Lapis Lazuli/etc and Tobacco are two different games. I remember thinking Tobacco was okay, but after last game with it none of them were placed in possible favourable city locations to settle on to get fast +2 Faith monopoly after Calendar (2-3 build plantations and done) so it felt bad. Mountains, whether there's natural wonders nearby and what ones, marshes/lakes/good resources all make it quite random if a start is going to be great or bad.

 

[chicorbeef]

I think there's a huge difference in starting locations. Starting next to Coral/Pearls/Lapis Lazuli/etc and Tobacco are two different games. I remember thinking Tobacco was okay, but after last game with it none of them were placed in possible favourable city locations to settle on to get fast +2 Faith monopoly after Calendar (2-3 build plantations and done) so it felt bad. Mountains, whether there's natural wonders nearby and what ones, marshes/lakes/good resources all make it quite random if a start is going to be great or bad.

I made a post in the "Going for Gold: Resources and Monopoly Bonuses" a while back about Tobacco, this seems more fitting for that thread.

 

[Gidoza]

I think some issues are solved by just not having trees give any bonus to first city (as I think it is now), that way at least there everyone starts on par.

 

[tu_79]

I think some issues are solved by just not having trees give any bonus to first city (as I think it is now), that way at least there everyone starts on par.

Not sure about this. When there are lots of trees around, it is harder to make tile improvements. There are some gained hammers by chopping, but generally connecting luxuries is harder. So it is justice to have a boosted city when the tiles around will be harder to improve.

 

[Gidoza]

Not sure about this. When there are lots of trees around, it is harder to make tile improvements. There are some gained hammers by chopping, but generally connecting luxuries is harder. So it is justice to have a boosted city when the tiles around will be harder to improve.

Trees give a boost to the initial yields, though, which offsets the loss from improvements. I only mean the first settled city, if on a tree, shouldn't get a cutting board - that way everyone starts at the same level for their town.

 

[Gidoza]

You'd think that Songhai's bias would demand a river.

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

I looked at Gazebo's ZIP file and thought it might come in handy to post it all here:

CivilizationType,StartAlongOcean
CIVILIZATION_ENGLAND,1
CIVILIZATION_JAPAN,1
CIVILIZATION_POLYNESIA,1
CIVILIZATION_DENMARK,1
CIVILIZATION_CARTHAGE,1
CIVILIZATION_SPAIN,1
CIVILIZATION_BYZANTIUM,1
CIVILIZATION_INDONESIA,1
CIVILIZATION_KOREA,1
CIVILIZATION_PORTUGAL,1
CIVILIZATION_VENICE,1
CIVILIZATION_NETHERLANDS,1

///

CivilizationType,StartAlongRiver
CIVILIZATION_SONGHAI,1
CIVILIZATION_NETHERLANDS,1
CIVILIZATION_EGYPT,1
CIVILIZATION_INDIA,1
CIVILIZATION_BABYLON,1
CIVILIZATION_CHINA,1
CIVILIZATION_ASSYRIA,1

///

Terrain to avoid:

CivilizationType,RegionType
CIVILIZATION_EGYPT,REGION_JUNGLE
CIVILIZATION_EGYPT,REGION_FOREST
CIVILIZATION_SONGHAI,REGION_TUNDRA
CIVILIZATION_ASSYRIA,REGION_TUNDRA
CIVILIZATION_BABYLON,REGION_TUNDRA
CIVILIZATION_HUNS,REGION_FOREST
CIVILIZATION_HUNS,REGION_JUNGLE
CIVILIZATION_ZULU,REGION_JUNGLE

///

Starting bias:

CivilizationType,RegionType
CIVILIZATION_ARABIA,REGION_DESERT
CIVILIZATION_AZTEC,REGION_JUNGLE
CIVILIZATION_IROQUOIS,REGION_FOREST
CIVILIZATION_MONGOL,REGION_PLAINS
CIVILIZATION_INCA,REGION_HILLS
CIVILIZATION_CELTS,REGION_FOREST
CIVILIZATION_NETHERLANDS,REGION_GRASS
CIVILIZATION_AUSTRIA,REGION_HILLS
CIVILIZATION_BRAZIL,REGION_JUNGLE
CIVILIZATION_MONGOL,REGION_PLAINS
CIVILIZATION_MOROCCO,REGION_DESERT
CIVILIZATION_POLAND,REGION_PLAINS
CIVILIZATION_OTTOMAN,REGION_HILLS
CIVILIZATION_GREECE,REGION_HILLS
CIVILIZATION_AMERICA,REGION_FOREST
CIVILIZATION_SIAM,REGION_JUNGLE
CIVILIZATION_SIAM,REGION_FOREST
CIVILIZATION_HUNS,REGION_PLAINS
CIVILIZATION_ZULU,REGION_PLAINS
CIVILIZATION_POLAND,REGION_GRASS
CIVILIZATION_FRANCE,REGION_GRASS
CIVILIZATION_GERMANY,REGION_GRASS
CIVILIZATION_CELTS,REGION_HILLS
CIVILIZATION_ROME,REGION_GRASS
CIVILIZATION_SHOSHONE,REGION_GRASS
CIVILIZATION_GERMANY,REGION_FOREST
CIVILIZATION_MAYA,REGION_JUNGLE
CIVILIZATION_PERSIA,REGION_HILLS
CIVILIZATION_ETHIOPIA,REGION_HILLS
CIVILIZATION_EGYPT,REGION_DESERT

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

I looked at Gazebo's ZIP file and thought it might come in handy to post it all here:

CivilizationType,StartAlongOcean

CIVILIZATION_JAPAN,1
CIVILIZATION_BYZANTIUM,1
CIVILIZATION_KOREA,1

Not sure why these have a coastal bias? They have no coastal/maritime unique elements, IIRC.

///

CivilizationType,StartAlongRiver

CIVILIZATION_BABYLON,1
CIVILIZATION_CHINA,1
CIVILIZATION_ASSYRIA,1

Not sure why these have a bias to start near a river? Historical reasons? Perhaps (debatable), but it makes their starts on average stronger, considering the watermills and extra food from farms.

///

Starting bias:

CivilizationType,RegionType
CIVILIZATION_AUSTRIA,REGION_HILLS
CIVILIZATION_GREECE,REGION_HILLS
CIVILIZATION_PERSIA,REGION_HILLS
CIVILIZATION_ETHIOPIA,REGION_HILLS

Not sure why these have hills starting biases? IIRC, they have no unique elements connected to hills, unlike the Ottomans with the Siege Foundry & +2p on mines.

 

[chicorbeef]

I looked at Gazebo's ZIP file and thought it might come in handy to post it all here:

CivilizationType,StartAlongOcean

CIVILIZATION_JAPAN,1
CIVILIZATION_BYZANTIUM,1
CIVILIZATION_KOREA,1

Not sure why these have a coastal bias? They have no coastal/maritime unique elements, IIRC.

///

CivilizationType,StartAlongRiver

CIVILIZATION_BABYLON,1
CIVILIZATION_CHINA,1
CIVILIZATION_ASSYRIA,1

Not sure why these have a bias to start near a river? Historical reasons? Perhaps (debatable), but it makes their starts on average stronger, considering the watermills and extra food from farms.

///

Starting bias:

CivilizationType,RegionType
CIVILIZATION_AUSTRIA,REGION_HILLS
CIVILIZATION_GREECE,REGION_HILLS
CIVILIZATION_PERSIA,REGION_HILLS
CIVILIZATION_ETHIOPIA,REGION_HILLS

Not sure why these have hills starting biases? IIRC, they have no unique elements connected to hills, unlike the Ottomans with the Siege Foundry & +2p on mines.

There are even more civs who don't really need their start biases as far as I can see. Like why attach a start bias to Germany/Rome/Persia/America? Ottomans synergy with their bias is kind of weak. Indonesia doesn't really need a coastal bias now that their UA doesn't have to do with the coast (is it kept for thematic reasons?).

I agree that those civs don't need start biases. I do remember that Byzantium has a unique naval UU in 3/4 UC, maybe that is being considered?

 

[pineappledan]

3/4 UC is not considered for base VP. If we need to change a start bias for 3/4UC, we will.

I don’t see much of an issue with how the civs are arranged for this right now. Starting biases tend to be determined by the civ’s IRL geography more than any game consideration, unless their unique abilities require some starting bias consideration. Those are few and far between, however. Really, the only civs which need a start bias are Iroquois, Songhai, Venice, England, Carthage, and huns. maybe Siam and Denmark.

Give it a rest; It’s fine. This whole post is just a necro at this point

 

[chicorbeef]

3/4 UC is not considered for base VP. If we need to change a start bias for 3/4UC, we will.

I don’t see much of an issue with how the civs are arranged for this right now. Starting biases tend to be determined by the civ’s IRL geography than any game consideration, unless their unique abilities require some starting bias consideration. Those are few and far between, however. Really, the only civs which need a start bias are Iroquois, Songhai, Venice, England, Carthage, and huns.

Give it a rest. It’s fine.

I disagree. Civs that have both thematic reasons and gameplay reasons for their start biases are the civs you listed plus Mongols/Poland/Shoshone/Morocco/Siam/Brazil/Maya etc. all have some reason, big or small, to spawn in their locations, and some very thematic start biases (eg. Egypt, Arabia) still have some synergy. Pointless start bias for Rome etc. is pointless though. Especially when Rome was a vast empire covering many landscapes...Italy itself was diverse. More varied start locations for civs that don't have any need for their start biases is a good thing.