Txurce
Deity
Attacking cities?
Going for Gold: Units
- Thread starter Stalker0
- Start date
Attacking cities?
Also holding defensive positions. The long sword serves its purpose, it’s just a bit more niche than the knight
chicorbeef
Emperor
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The fortification bonus is 20%, it's still got less power than the Knight even when fortified. To hold a line, Knights are better imo.
Hardly better at all (and with like 2 promotions they even out) and besides, Longswords start with Shock I so you tend to go that path.
I feel like the Longsword could just use a little buff to boost their front-line capacity. If I have the choice between a Longsword and a Knight right now, I will almost always pick the Knight. And Crossbows/Comp Bows are being buffed now too further plunging the status of the Longsword as it lacks both the mobility/strength to deal with them.
Txurce
Deity
That's an awful lot of qualifiers you packed into that sentence. The promotions one obviously cuts both ways. And better is better.
You will almost always pick a knight? That's okay. As Stalker0 said, longswords are a more niche unit. Knights are expected to dominate the era. I'd second Chandler that, if anything, I'd increase the cost of knights a bit. Always err against buffing creep!
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I'm not really a fan of the barbarian penalty on explorers either.
Longswords have the job of breaking up pikemen, they can fortify, and they hit cities harder (not that important in my experience). The extra promotion means they effecitvely have about 22 CS when lowly promoted, and when highly promoted its the difference between having something like march or overrun and only having shock III, which is a massive difference. Overall the knight is stronger but longswords are useful.
Longswords have the job of breaking up pikemen, they can fortify, and they hit cities harder (not that important in my experience). The extra promotion means they effecitvely have about 22 CS when lowly promoted, and when highly promoted its the difference between having something like march or overrun and only having shock III, which is a massive difference. Overall the knight is stronger but longswords are useful.
I do want to agree on the barb penalty. My only real beef about explorers is that they are paper against barbs. And when you are exploring areas on a map with no civs, there are going to be a lot of barbsrians. So they can’t really actually “explore”. If they could at least hold their own against barbs they would be much more useful
pineappledan
Deity
It is a bit strange that only Brazil gets the Brute Force promotion on its explorers, while everyone else gets a 30% penalty. That’s a 60% difference in Barb fighting ability, ignoring the Bandeirantes’ CS steroids.
ElliotS
Warmonger
Agree. I think it should be removed.
Mad Madigan
Prince
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Wait, Explorers still have the Barbarian penalty? Yeah, I agree that should get removed at that stage of the Pathfinder > Special Forces unit line. Part of the usefulness of Explorers should be helping to clear off Barb camps from small mid-ocean islands (maybe even guarding ruins), and you can't count on other units supporting them until you get Astronomy 2 techs later.
As for Medieval Era melee units (Knights, Pikemen, Longswords, and Landsknecht), I feel that the CS balance is pretty much right where it needs to be. My only concern is that currently Landsknecht and Longswords both have 20 CS, but the free promotions on Landsknecht are so much better than Shock I. Landsknecht are straight-up better than Pikemen (20 vs 17 CS and come with the "Free Pillage" and "Gold on City Attack" promotions, which remain on upgrade), with their only "downside" being that they can only be purchased, not built. Longswords have the same CS as Landsknecht, but lack the bonus versus mounted units and cost Iron. Their only benefit is the free Shock promotion, which doesn't even make sense given that their niche is city assault so you want to be giving them Drill and Cover as they level up. Longswordsmen are supposed to be weak to Knights (so that Pikemen have a purpose), but if you go Authority Landsknecht pretty much cover the roles of both Longswords and Pikemen so they are all you need to purchase (rather than spending your gold to upgrade Swordsmen/Spearmen).
Since Pikemen are at a good CS to counter Knights, I would suggest dropping Landsknecht to 19 CS (or buffing Longswords to 21 CS), as well as changing the free promotion on Swordsmen/Longswordsmen to either Drill 1 (to illustrate their niche to new players) or Stalwart (to represent their heavy armor as compared to other contemporary melee units).
As for Medieval Era melee units (Knights, Pikemen, Longswords, and Landsknecht), I feel that the CS balance is pretty much right where it needs to be. My only concern is that currently Landsknecht and Longswords both have 20 CS, but the free promotions on Landsknecht are so much better than Shock I. Landsknecht are straight-up better than Pikemen (20 vs 17 CS and come with the "Free Pillage" and "Gold on City Attack" promotions, which remain on upgrade), with their only "downside" being that they can only be purchased, not built. Longswords have the same CS as Landsknecht, but lack the bonus versus mounted units and cost Iron. Their only benefit is the free Shock promotion, which doesn't even make sense given that their niche is city assault so you want to be giving them Drill and Cover as they level up. Longswordsmen are supposed to be weak to Knights (so that Pikemen have a purpose), but if you go Authority Landsknecht pretty much cover the roles of both Longswords and Pikemen so they are all you need to purchase (rather than spending your gold to upgrade Swordsmen/Spearmen).
Since Pikemen are at a good CS to counter Knights, I would suggest dropping Landsknecht to 19 CS (or buffing Longswords to 21 CS), as well as changing the free promotion on Swordsmen/Longswordsmen to either Drill 1 (to illustrate their niche to new players) or Stalwart (to represent their heavy armor as compared to other contemporary melee units).
Legen
Emperor
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I think Landsknecht are ok now, the player is paying with their policy choice and the unit should feel roughly as rewarding as unlocking Zero and B17. In older patches, people were complaining that Authority's finisher could as well not exist.
My take on Authority's finisher units is that they aren't meant to fill a different role than existing units of the time, since the base units are already well diverse; rather, it is meant to provide better versions of existing units, for a price. Foreign Legion, Mercenaries, Zeroes and B17 are all clear improvements over the equivalent unit of their era. I see no reason for Landsknecht not to be as well.
Enrico Swagolo
Deity
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I think if Landsknechts get nerfed or the alternatives get buffs, they'll go back into the never-used territory as garrisons as long as they're the cheapest available gold purchase. They're fine as is. They're clearly better than Pikemen and stand their own with Longswords, but there's only one way to obtain them.
The only problem is they hardcounter Knights too hard, but after ranged units are buffed, mobility will be a greater factor again so I don't think any change is needed before the outcome of that change becomes apparent.
The only problem is they hardcounter Knights too hard, but after ranged units are buffed, mobility will be a greater factor again so I don't think any change is needed before the outcome of that change becomes apparent.
Mad Madigan
Prince
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But as it stands right now, Landsknecht are better than both Pikemen AND Longswordsmen. They have (essentially) the same CS as Longswords but have the same anti-mounted promotion as Pikemen, plus 2 other promotions that help them recoup their purchase cost when being used in active combat. I agree that Landsknecht need to be good to counter them being an Authority-finisher special unit, but it kind of takes the fun out of the game to make them the obvious choice for Authority players during the Medieval Era. And their unique promotions remain when they get upgraded to Tercios, so you'll want to get as many as you can unless you have a better Civ-specific unique unit available (Japan/Denmark/etc.). But at the same time, I don't think drastic changes are needed, just a little tweaking. I would drop Landsknecht to 19 CS so the range of Medieval melee units would be:
Pikemen - 17
(25.5 vs Mounted)
Longswordsmen - 20 (22 with free Shock and/or Drill)
Landsknecht - 19 (28.5 vs Mounted + Improved Pillaging and Gold on City Attack)
Knights - 25
Pikemen - 17
(25.5 vs Mounted)Longswordsmen - 20
(22 with free Shock and/or Drill)Landsknecht - 19
(28.5 vs Mounted + Improved Pillaging and Gold on City Attack)Knights - 25
ElliotS
Warmonger
I second that Swordsman line should go from free shock to free drill. That would also be enough to make them compete with Landsknecht because Blitz and Stalwart are really, really good. getting those a promotion earlier would be really powerful.
Only concern would be Alhambra. Probably switch it to shock 1, because allowing Longswords to start with Blitz or Stalwart with armories would be 100% insane.
Only concern would be Alhambra. Probably switch it to shock 1, because allowing Longswords to start with Blitz or Stalwart with armories would be 100% insane.
Enrico Swagolo
Deity
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Actually Alhambra would just not work on Longswords in it's current state, it doesn't add another level of Drill, it merely adds level one if unit can get it and doesn't have it. If Alhambra still had Drill afterwards, that'd actually make Landsknechts even better in comparison (Longswords wouldn't have an edge in one +10% CS +XX% flanking promotion, they'd be merely 2 promos behind) so Alhambra would need to get Shock then.
pineappledan
Deity
Alhambra giving drill used to be more thematic because drill gave a rough terrain bonus. Since VP changes what drill and shock do, this could be looked at again.
Of the two, drill certainly is the more thematically appropriate of the two promotion lines (a bonus vs cities is more evocative of the reconquista than a flanking bonus), but I think it’s much more flexible now.
For my part, I think medieval CS are all pretty good as is. I know G is boosting the archery and siege units, and nerfing the heavy skirmisher, so I would rather take a “wait and see”. I also agree with those saying landsknecht needs to be powerful, and that trumps other concerns because having landsknecht that are mediocre compared to longswords comes at a massive opportunity cost to Authority players.
Of the two, drill certainly is the more thematically appropriate of the two promotion lines (a bonus vs cities is more evocative of the reconquista than a flanking bonus), but I think it’s much more flexible now.
For my part, I think medieval CS are all pretty good as is. I know G is boosting the archery and siege units, and nerfing the heavy skirmisher, so I would rather take a “wait and see”. I also agree with those saying landsknecht needs to be powerful, and that trumps other concerns because having landsknecht that are mediocre compared to longswords comes at a massive opportunity cost to Authority players.
Chandler
Warlord
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Hum... I'm not sure about that. The Alhambra was mostly built by the Emirate of Granada, at a time when muslim control over the Iberian peninsula was already in the past. The "rough terrain bonus" was certainly thematic and appropriate. But a bonus vs cities... I'd say a defensive bonus promotion would make more sense, as they were able to hold those lands for about three more centuries.
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So authority gives you a unique unit, and people are complaining that it’s bsffer than its contemporaries?
Of course it is, it’s supposed to be. I want landssketch better than longs words, otherwise I only build them If I don’t have iron
Of course it is, it’s supposed to be. I want landssketch better than longs words, otherwise I only build them If I don’t have iron
They already are cause they are cheap and do not cost iron. They also can act right after you bout them making them super powerful in defending and reinforcement.
Its like War Elephants, did you know that they are actually weaker then Horsemen considering theit cost? You only need 1 War Elephant in your army, maximum 2, and you need them because of debuff it has
pineappledan
Deity
Ehh... that’s another debate entirely. War elephants are a very different kettle of fish.
