Going for Gold: Units

[Mad Madigan]

It's been a while since I've played a game where Ivory RNG'd in as one of the available luxuries on the map, and honestly I forget half the time that War Elephants are even an option in VP. But stat-wise I think they're fine. If you have Ivory, great, have fun with them while you can, but given that access to Ivory is far from being guaranteed the Elephants have to be pretty closely comparable to Horsemen in overall strength/value, which I think that they currently are.

 

[pineappledan]

Currently playing a game where there are no horses on my side of the continent (desert start), but I locked down a source of ivory with my 2nd city. The only thing that kept me alive through classical was my elephant corps; I had at least 4 at any given moment

 

[Owlbebach]

Currently playing a game where there are no horses on my side of the continent (desert start), but I locked down a source of ivory with my 2nd city. The only thing that kept me alive through classical was my elephant corps; I had at least 4 at any given moment

Well of course if you have no Horses....

 

[tu_79]

If you ask me Explorers should have a bonus versus barbies, not the other way around...

Currently explorers penalty vs barbarians is smaller than scouts, and scouts' is smaller than pathfinders'. I've come to understand (though not actually like) the penalty on pathfinders, so warriors can have their moment. However, scouts could get rid of the barbarian penalty, by their time there are no many barbarians to fight, just some CS quests (except for the upgraded by goody huts one, which is some kind of treasure in itself). And then, explorers could have a bonus vs barbarians, so they are competitive. It's something good that they can travel ocean and arrive to new shores before anyone else, but as Stalker0 has pointed out, they have a bad habit of running into barbarian trirremes and being shooted by composite archers while still embarked. Not to forget that in most maps the other continents are already inhabited, so no more goody huts and no lands to explore until an open borders agreement.

 

[Gazebo]

Explorers were supposed to get the same barb buff that bandeirantes have, I just forgot. I'll fix.

G

 

[Vortok]

However, scouts could get rid of the barbarian penalty, by their time there are no many barbarians to fight, just some CS quests.

I think the barbarian scarcity past the early game can be partially map-size related. Or rather, civ + CS density vs available landmass. I know that in vanilla Huge maps could commonly have barbarian camps spawning even into Modern Era and beyond.

Probably why some people have a greater focus on barbarian hunting - they play on settings that make it a better strategy than on maps where almost all of the space is taken around Classical (aka, not a huge number of turns to actively hunt, on standard speed).

--

As for other units, I'm thinking of the distance that land vs sea routes can traverse. Sea routes start out quite short, get a good distance boost at Harbors, and then just... stagnate for a very long time. I do appreciate that using Caravans (especially with roads/railroads added into the mix) has an incentive, as they're generally a bit more dangerous than sea routes (more likely/realistic opportunity to be intercepted by an enemy). That and they aren't objectively inferior in yields to Cargo Ships, like in Vanilla. Starting in a bit of a bay can eat up a fair amount of "distance." Can be a particular concern if Statescraft (capital/holy city yield boost), though there's certainly the counterpoint of assessing how well a tree meshes with a given map layout.

Not sure if anything really needs to be done, but it's always been a point that's stuck out to me a bit. Especially if trying to send a route to another continent.

 

[tu_79]

As for other units, I'm thinking of the distance that land vs sea routes can traverse. Sea routes start out quite short, get a good distance boost at Harbors, and then just... stagnate for a very long time. I do appreciate that using Caravans (especially with roads/railroads added into the mix) has an incentive, as they're generally a bit more dangerous than sea routes (more likely/realistic opportunity to be intercepted by an enemy). That and they aren't objectively inferior in yields to Cargo Ships, like in Vanilla. Starting in a bit of a bay can eat up a fair amount of "distance." Can be a particular concern if Statescraft (capital/holy city yield boost), though there's certainly the counterpoint of assessing how well a tree meshes with a given map layout.

Not sure if anything really needs to be done, but it's always been a point that's stuck out to me a bit. Especially if trying to send a route to another continent.

Not really sure what you are chimming about

 

[randomnub]

Chariot Archers

They come at The Wheel but require horses so Animal Husbandry is a given.
By the time you research both tech and connect the horses Military Theory is not far away, and for early rushes horsemen are way more impactful.
After the latest cs/rcs tuning a 7/7 with no terrain bonuses is also pretty meh compared to warriors (7) or spearmen (11), you need an overwhelming amount of CA to cut through even the basic melee units, and if you're not fighting in 100% flat terrain you must expect a counterattack every couple turns or so.
Long story short, if I'm not Egypt (their UU is actually pretty good) then I'm not going to build them ever.

Atm I'm moving Charior Archers to Animal Husbandry, then rearranging some other pre reqs to not make The Wheel an even more empty early tech: Well to Wheel, Chop Forest to Mining, Chop Jungle to Bronze Working and Clear Marsh to Calendar; consider that as a little derail/rant about jungle plantations being easier to improve than forest ones nowadays as well.

I know, Chariots have wheels and it makes sense to have the unit there but for gameplay purposes it's really a bad spot. Higher CS would be welcome as well but need some more games with the new ruleset to avoid inflating those values even more.

 

[Moi Magnus]

If we want some kind of historical accuracy, chariot archers should be uncontested monsters during the he bronze age
(and they should not really exist at the same time as horsemen, since chariot archers are from an age were horse were too small to be ridden efficiently)

To obtain this, the easiest way would be to buff them and push back horsemen one tech to mathematics, bug not sure it is the best way to go gameplay wise.

 

[Owlbebach]

Atm I'm moving Charior Archers to Animal Husbandry, then rearranging some other pre reqs to not make The Wheel an even more empty early tech: Well to Wheel, Chop Forest to Mining, Chop Jungle to Bronze Working and Clear Marsh to Calendar; consider that as a little derail/rant about jungle plantations being easier to improve than forest ones nowadays as well.

I absolutely love this. All of those changes will greatly improve early-game balance. And moving Chariots to Animal Husbandry is a must cause right now Chariots are by far the most useless unit in the game

 

[tu_79]

I absolutely love this. All of those changes will greatly improve early-game balance. And moving Chariots to Animal Husbandry is a must cause right now Chariots are by far the most useless unit in the game

Or remove the horse requirement for chariots. They are not that great units, especially in harsh terrain. It works for Egypt.

To improve them, I'd get rid of the 'cannot move on harsh terrain' sillyness and have them at 3 movement. The moment I start near harsh terrain I know I don't want chariots. But even when the terrain is flat, by the time I'm able to produce chariots, I'm already producing horsemen.

 

[pineappledan]

I like the idea of moving chariots to husbandry. I don’t think much else needs to be done to buff the chariots; it’s just that they can’t be deployed fast enough.

You need to unlock horses with animal husbandry
Then you need to settle on a source of horses if you don’t have them in your capital
Then you need a worker
Then you need to improve the pasture to get those horses.
Then you need to unlock chariots with wheel.

By the time you can get chariots fielded, you might have researched 4 techs, when you only really needed 2. By the time you have the infrastructure for chariots, skirmishers aren’t far off, so you may as well make do with archers until then. You’ll just be eating upgrade costs otherwise.

It’s funny that egypt’s Unique unit is the ability to field chariots faster and better than others, when chariots were something introduced to Egypt by Indo-European/Semitic invaders. Since Egypt doesn’t need horses, they don’t need to unlock horses, they don’t need to improve horses. It almost feels like a unitclass that is entirely locked to Egypt, and other civs don’t have access to it

 

[Rekk]

I like the idea of moving chariots to husbandry. I don’t think much else needs to be done to buff the chariots; it’s just that they can’t be deployed fast enough.

You need to unlock horses with animal husbandry
Then you need to settle on a source of horses if you don’t have them in your capital
Then you need a worker
Then you need to improve the pasture to get those horses.
Then you need to unlock chariots with wheel.

By the time you can get chariots fielded, you might have researched 4 techs, when you only really needed 2. By the time you have the infrastructure for chariots, skirmishers aren’t far off, so you may as well make do with archers until then. You’ll just be eating upgrade costs otherwise.

It’s funny that egypt’s Unique unit is the ability to field chariots faster and better than others, when chariots were something introduced to Egypt by Indo-European/Semitic invaders. Since Egypt doesn’t need horses, they don’t need to unlock horses, they don’t need to improve horses. It almost feels like a unitclass that is entirely locked to Egypt, and other cubs don’t have access to it

So the issue is that you need to have three techs (assuming no horses in your capital) before you can start producing your first chariot. Granted, given that you aren't likely to build the council right off the bat, the Wheel can be researched concurrently with improving the pasture. This tech path is incredibly aggressive, and you might not get more than two chariots before you get your fourth tech (which could easily give you horsemen).

Granted, it seems pretty awful in theme for chariots to exist before your civ knows how to make a wheel.

 

[ElliotS]

Or remove the horse requirement for chariots. They are not that great units, especially in harsh terrain. It works for Egypt.

To improve them, I'd get rid of the 'cannot move on harsh terrain' sillyness and have them at 3 movement. The moment I start near harsh terrain I know I don't want chariots. But even when the terrain is flat, by the time I'm able to produce chariots, I'm already producing horsemen.

This 100%.

 

[pineappledan]

I like the rough terrain penalty... I want that to stay

I don’t have a problem with their power, or that they are so early for a strategic resource unit. My issue is that, as the first strategic resource unit, their techs need to be more streamlined than they are now.

 

[Stalker0]

I would be curious what Epic/Marathon players think.

For me, the issue is that chariot is just an extraneous unit at that point in the game. I only have so many hammers to use, and every building, unit, and tech I get is key at this point in the game.

I just don't have time to be getting chariots when there is something better down the line. I don't think that is because chariots are bad, I just think that by the time I have built the other infrastructure and units I need that I'm now ready to go horsemen.


But on Epic or Marathon play it may be different. And ultimately if the chariot is a viable unit for those playstyles and those styles alone....I don't think that is bad.

 

[Mad Madigan]

As an Epic speed player, I have only ever built Chariot Archers as Egypt. I can't normally spare the hammers to build chariots in the Ancient Era, even if I want mounted ranged units. I just wait for Mathematics and start building Skirmishers if I really need that class of unit. I don't think anything is wrong with the unit stat-wise, but it is in a really awkward position in the tech tree. I agree the unit should unlock with Animal Husbandry, because even then I might not want to build them depending on what terrain I'm in and how many horse resources I have available.

 

[Moi Magnus]

But on Epic or Marathon play it may be different. And ultimately if the chariot is a viable unit for those playstyles and those styles alone....I don't think that is bad.

You don't have more hammers to save in Epic and Marathon. You have more time to use them, but the current problem is that you have them too late.

 

[HungryForFood]

Just had a game go to Atomic, and had a nuclear war with a strong AI. What I found was that first strike was far too strong; as long as you have enough to nuke nearby cities a few times, the AI will never get a chance to even launch a nuke.

IMO, nukes should be immune to nukes, so that mutually assured destruction is more of a thing.

 

[pineappledan]

IMO, nukes should be immune to nukes, so that mutually assured destruction is more of a thing.

That makes sense. You make sense.