Going Wide - Possible Strategies and Loadouts

[Karl0413]

Alright, we have gotten enough information over the last couple weeks for us to be able to start formulating strategies for going wide or going tall. I like building (or conquering) big empires so let's start talking about possible wide strategies. First off, view the following video as an example of what not to do:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48VUAuTFgyk

Don't just spam cities people.

Now an ounce of preparation is worth a pound or two of perspiration so let's first talk load-out options. On sponsors, the factions that stand out as being particularly favorable to going wide are:

* Polystralia: It's bonus is +1 possible trade route from every city that can establish a trade route. Thanks to Pete Murray we know that outposts turn into cities faster when they have a trade route connected to them. We also know that trade routes to stations provide everything from additional culture to free military units to free tech: obviously more trade routes with stations the better. And finally trade routes with other civs bring in cool energy. In other words Polystralia has a very powerful snowball-effect Unique Ability, it starts off weak but it gets more and more powerful the longer the game goes on. This makes them one of the top choices for going wide.

* Pan-Asian Cooperative: 10% production to wonders is nice but the real attraction for going wide is the increased worker speed. This allows you to build up the infrastructure to support your cities faster and potentially allows you to make do with fewer workers, which frees up energy to support other things (like more tanks).

* Kavithan Protectorate: It takes 15-20 turns for an outpost to turn into a city depending on game speed setting. During this time those potential cities aren't producing anything and since enemy troops can smash them without declaring war on you they are vulnerable. KP's unique ability cuts down on the time they are vulnerable and not contributing to your empire.

These are the top three choices in my opinion for going wide. Franco-Iberia sounds nice but if the mechanics are like Civ V every city you found increases the cost it takes to buy virtues so building more than seven cities as FI might be a little counter-productive when it comes to getting the most out of its UA. The Slavic Federation, satellites are nice and Kozlov can keep them flying longer but there are virtues you can buy to get the same effect and the one free tech is situationial. Brasilia, 10% combat strength isn't that bad but it really isn't that good either and it doesn't help too much with going wide. ARC, I like what I have seen of the overhauled spy system (aka covert ops) but our objective is less conquest and disruption of other nations and more of rapid expansion and industrialization. People's African Union, 10% growth when healthy doesn't compare to increased worker speed or trade routes galore.

Now for colonists choice the two best for going wide are:

* Artists: +2 culture and +1 health in each city. You want that +1 health per city if your goal is expansion and the +2 culture per city helps alleviate the rising costs of the Virtues.

* Aristocrats: +3 Energy and +1 Health in every city. Health, see above and the increased energy output means A) you don't have to worry as much about going into the red with all the maintenance and unit costs; and B) you can rush buy stuff more and develop new cities quicker.

Scientists are nice to offset the increased science cost but they don't have that health bonus. Refugees, we want our city populations to grow at a manageable rate; they grow too fast we might have a problem. Engineers, same as scientists nice but no health bonus. That city health bonus is critical. Now spacecraft equipment options:

* Tectonic Scanner: No technology is needed to see Petroleum, Geothermal and Titanium resources. Self-explanatory, it helps you see valuable resources and allows you to scope out more valuable territory sooner than you normally would.

* Continental Surveyor: Reveal Coasts on Map. See this Let's Play to see the result of choosing it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vufyym8_ySo

You get to see coastal tiles, coastal resources like kelp. On a achipelago map this is worth it's weight in gold but on other maps I would recommend the Tectonic Scanner. The other three star-ship choices aren't as much help going wide. One hundred energy? Nice but if you choose Aristocrats it is a moot point and it doesn't have the staying power the Continental Surveyor and Tectonic Scanner have. Lifeform Sensor, you are going to find those alien nests the old fashioned way sooner or later and how you deal with them depends on your affinity and other factors. Retrograde Thrusters, this has the potential to give you a better start, but again, it doesn't have the long-term bonus the CS and the TS have.

Now on cargo options, these are a little trickier to choose from as you going to need to build all of these sooner or later:

* Laboratory: gives you Pioneering which in turn allows you to construct trade depots, truck convoys and trade ships and, of course, colonists. Of course, you aren't building your colonist on turn one (you need at least two population) but not having to research this allows you to research something else first.

* Weapon Arsenal: Gives you a soldier unit to complement your Explorer; which allows you to explore faster, pop resource pods faster and help pacify the natives when they get uppity.

* Raw Materials: Free Clinic which gives +1 science and health, useful for getting the ball rolling.

* Machinery: Free worker to build farms, generators, plantations and chitin ranches right off the bat.

* Hydroponics: One free pop nice generic starting boost.

I am quite partial to Weapon Arsenal and the Lab but again you are going to have to build a soldier, worker, clinic and research Pioneering to start expanding so take whichever floats your boat.

OK, now we have landed on Planet we need to decide which virtues and techs we are going to grab first. On Virtues, just looking over the bonuses and it becomes clear that Prosperity is Liberty on steroids:

* Tier 1 choices include +15% worker speed bonus (stacks with PAC bonus to give you Super-Bulldozer), +30% faster development for Outposts (combine with KP and trade routes for Urban Miracle Grow) a free colonist and a free worker.

* Tier II has a kicker bonus of +1 health in every city and Virtue choices of +2 Population for newly founded Cities, +7 health empire wide and -25% Culture needed for border expansions.

* Tier III includes such choices as +1 Production from every Basic Resource; +1 Health from every type of Basic Resource that is improved;25% less negative health and +2 energy from any Population acting as a Specialist. I would obviously recommend buying every Tier I and II Prosperity Virtue and most of Tier 3 if going wide.

Secondary Virtue choices:

* Knowledge: I would recommend grabbing a few Virtues to offset the science penalty of spamming cities. At least Foresight, Social Mores and Laboratory Apprenticeship (+10% science when healthy, each city tile generates +0.25 culture per population, each city tile generates +0.25 science per population).

* Might: well you got to get the natives off your lawn after all but the Tier I Virtue Public Security gives you +0.25 Health for every military unit under your command is something you might want to seriously consider grabbing. Going wide equals having a large military out of necessity, in Civ V I typically have a ranged infantry unit garrisoned in every city; at least one, more often than not two, rapid reaction cavalry forces and a coastal defense fleet. With Public Security having 20 military units is +5 health; think about is all I am asking.

* Industry: Labor Logistics gives you +10% to building construction and Standardized Architecture pretty much gives you Rome's UA from Civ V (+25% Production towards Buildings which have already been built in the Capital). I would recommend grabbing those two to speed up your empire's development.

Now for techs to research first:

* If you didn't choose the Lab as your cargo option Pioneering should be one of the first techs you research.

* Ecology gives you the ultra-sonic fence, which is helpful for keeping the Siege Worms at bay so I recommend grabbing it quickly.

** It's leaf-tech Alien Biology gives you Harmony points (which can be a plus or minus depending on your affinity choice) but it also gives your workers the ability to clear Miasma and a Miasma Immunity which is tempting (since Miasma reduces the tile output in addition to damaging your units).

* Physics gives you access to the Ranger unit, your defensive infantry archer equivalent. You are going to want either this guy or an artillery unit stationed in each one of your cities so grab it.

* Computing which gives you your first artillery unit the Missile Rover (along with Gunboats and spies).

* Chemistry allows you to refine petrol and gives you access to the Lab and the Recycler (Eat Recycled Food).

* Planetary Survey allows your units to embark across oceans. Unless you are starting out on an island map and your starting island can only support one city you can put this off until later. You're still going to want to grab it eventually.

My recommended research queue is this: Ecology, Physics (or Pioneering if you didn't take the Lab, if so make Physics your third tech), Chemistry, Alien Biology, Computing, Planetary Survey.

Now granted all of this is subject to change come us actually playing the game but this is my opinion of how things stand right now in regards to starting out going wide. Thoughts?

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I've been kicking this idea around too. You hit many good points. I do wonder about that Virtue that gives extra population in new cities. That means every new city takes up more Health. Won't that inhibit expansion if you're fighting the Health threshold more than you already would be?

 

[Karl0413]

I've been kicking this idea around too. You hit many good points. I do wonder about that Virtue that gives extra population in new cities. That means every new city takes up more Health. Won't that inhibit expansion if you're fighting the Health threshold more than you already would be?

Yes, that is a potential complication; but you have to buy that in order to get the Tier II kicker unfortunately. How much of a trade-off this is we don't know until we can experience the game play ourselves. Alternatively, you can put off grabbing it to later in the game when you are mostly done with settling new cities (you might settle 2 or 3 more but not 10) and grab some of the other Virtues like the Knowledge ones first. That you way get the kicker to offset your growing population but don't butt against the positive health threshold unnecessarily.

 

[Acken]

I'll just wait for the game. It's pretty hard to get that kind of stuff right only with partial information and 0 experience :/

I clearly see what you point out as being wide friendly, how it will truly end up or what has priority over what is another story. Also some stuff may change before release.

 

[ggmoyang]

Even when going wide, you'll need some pops in cities and 3 is perfectly fine. You can avoid growth of them and can build things faster with extra 2 pops.

 

[MadDjinn]

Prosperity or Industry (for the other health bonuses) are equally viable as the core Virtue, depending on the sponsor and what you pick.

Polystralia works better with Industry than Prosperity.

 

[3of5]

Remember when settling new bases in SMAC with a mass transit wonder built? Unless you improved the land of your future settlement first one risked starvation right of the bat (keep a trade route ready). Without Refugees as colonists the base tile only gives 1 food (depending on the terrain it sits on, it seems), so this virtue could actually backfire, Since you don't need all virtues in T2 (unless you want to have the 15 virtues bonus), just grab 10 virtues in prosperity T1-T3. I'd skip the free worker, the free colonist, pathfinders, the +2 pop (which goes pretty fast anyway with some trade route turns) and the terrascape buff (unless terrascapes give another benefit we don't already know of). But i'd probably go tall in the first 60 turns of the game anyway (giving me time to grab some Knowledge virtues to increase my culture output) before going wide, so just building workers and colonists does not hurt me much (and i prefer virtues that scale throughout the whole game). In that case starting with a worker and artists suits me fine. I might even forgo the tectonic scanner, since i expect to have researched chemistry and engineering anyway before sending my settlers out. Build order would probably be: exporer, soldier, relic, laboratory/vivarium.

 

[Zet]

Polystralia works better with Industry than Prosperity.

So you're saying that the trade route related Industry virtues are a big deal when you have an extra trade unit.

I'm guessing it's not Profiterring (+0.5 health for every trade unit).

Alternative Markets (+6 energy fo trade routes with stations per station tier) sounds powerful.

But Independent Network (+25% yield from internal trade routes) sounds like the winner when we're talking about going wide.

The sequence of Opener -> Commoditization -> Standardized Architecture -> Profiteering -> Independent Network -> Liquidity -> Civic Duty -> Magnasanti looks like a great choice for wide empires.

 

[NASAROG]

Can you even go tall on a map that isn't small?

 

[ggmoyang]

At least it was viable in ciV.

 

[Karl0413]

Prosperity or Industry (for the other health bonuses) are equally viable as the core Virtue, depending on the sponsor and what you pick.

Polystralia works better with Industry than Prosperity.

I did think about that, especially when I saw Profiteering in Industry Tier II and how that compliments Polystralia's UA but not having played the game I do not know if the net health bonus of Profiteering, and Magnasanti in Industry III, surpasses the net health bonuses of investing in Prosperity. Though with Magnasanti and all the buildings a wide Civ builds it might and with Profiteering 10 trade routes is +5 health so I can see why a Polystralia player might want to grab that.

 

[indradiva]

Alright, we have gotten enough information over the last couple weeks for us to be able to start formulating strategies for going wide or going tall. I like building (or conquering) big empires so let's start talking about possible wide strategies. First off, view the following video as an example of what not to do:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48VUAuTFgyk

Don't just spam cities people.

Now an ounce of preparation is worth a pound or two of perspiration so let's first talk load-out options. On sponsors, the factions that stand out as being particularly favorable to going wide are:

* Polystralia: It's bonus is +1 possible trade route from every city that can establish a trade route. Thanks to Pete Murray we know that outposts turn into cities faster when they have a trade route connected to them. We also know that trade routes to stations provide everything from additional culture to free military units to free tech: obviously more trade routes with stations the better. And finally trade routes with other civs bring in cool energy. In other words Polystralia has a very powerful snowball-effect Unique Ability, it starts off weak but it gets more and more powerful the longer the game goes on. This makes them one of the top choices for going wide.

* Pan-Asian Cooperative: 10% production to wonders is nice but the real attraction for going wide is the increased worker speed. This allows you to build up the infrastructure to support your cities faster and potentially allows you to make do with fewer workers, which frees up energy to support other things (like more tanks).

* Kavithan Protectorate: It takes 15-20 turns for an outpost to turn into a city depending on game speed setting. During this time those potential cities aren't producing anything and since enemy troops can smash them without declaring war on you they are vulnerable. KP's unique ability cuts down on the time they are vulnerable and not contributing to your empire.

These are the top three choices in my opinion for going wide. Franco-Iberia sounds nice but if the mechanics are like Civ V every city you found increases the cost it takes to buy virtues so building more than seven cities as FI might be a little counter-productive when it comes to getting the most out of its UA. The Slavic Federation, satellites are nice and Kozlov can keep them flying longer but there are virtues you can buy to get the same effect and the one free tech is situationial. Brasilia, 10% combat strength isn't that bad but it really isn't that good either and it doesn't help too much with going wide. ARC, I like what I have seen of the overhauled spy system (aka covert ops) but our objective is less conquest and disruption of other nations and more of rapid expansion and industrialization. People's African Union, 10% growth when healthy doesn't compare to increased worker speed or trade routes galore.

Now for colonists choice the two best for going wide are:

* Artists: +2 culture and +1 health in each city. You want that +1 health per city if your goal is expansion and the +2 culture per city helps alleviate the rising costs of the Virtues.

* Aristocrats: +3 Energy and +1 Health in every city. Health, see above and the increased energy output means A) you don't have to worry as much about going into the red with all the maintenance and unit costs; and B) you can rush buy stuff more and develop new cities quicker.

Scientists are nice to offset the increased science cost but they don't have that health bonus. Refugees, we want our city populations to grow at a manageable rate; they grow too fast we might have a problem. Engineers, same as scientists nice but no health bonus. That city health bonus is critical. Now spacecraft equipment options:

* Tectonic Scanner: No technology is needed to see Petroleum, Geothermal and Titanium resources. Self-explanatory, it helps you see valuable resources and allows you to scope out more valuable territory sooner than you normally would.

* Continental Surveyor: Reveal Coasts on Map. See this Let's Play to see the result of choosing it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vufyym8_ySo

You get to see coastal tiles, coastal resources like kelp. On a achipelago map this is worth it's weight in gold but on other maps I would recommend the Tectonic Scanner. The other three star-ship choices aren't as much help going wide. One hundred energy? Nice but if you choose Aristocrats it is a moot point and it doesn't have the staying power the Continental Surveyor and Tectonic Scanner have. Lifeform Sensor, you are going to find those alien nests the old fashioned way sooner or later and how you deal with them depends on your affinity and other factors. Retrograde Thrusters, this has the potential to give you a better start, but again, it doesn't have the long-term bonus the CS and the TS have.

Now on cargo options, these are a little trickier to choose from as you going to need to build all of these sooner or later:

* Laboratory: gives you Pioneering which in turn allows you to construct trade depots, truck convoys and trade ships and, of course, colonists. Of course, you aren't building your colonist on turn one (you need at least two population) but not having to research this allows you to research something else first.

* Weapon Arsenal: Gives you a soldier unit to complement your Explorer; which allows you to explore faster, pop resource pods faster and help pacify the natives when they get uppity.

* Raw Materials: Free Clinic which gives +1 science and health, useful for getting the ball rolling.

* Machinery: Free worker to build farms, generators, plantations and chitin ranches right off the bat.

* Hydroponics: One free pop nice generic starting boost.

I am quite partial to Weapon Arsenal and the Lab but again you are going to have to build a soldier, worker, clinic and research Pioneering to start expanding so take whichever floats your boat.

OK, now we have landed on Planet we need to decide which virtues and techs we are going to grab first. On Virtues, just looking over the bonuses and it becomes clear that Prosperity is Liberty on steroids:

* Tier 1 choices include +15% worker speed bonus (stacks with PAC bonus to give you Super-Bulldozer), +30% faster development for Outposts (combine with KP and trade routes for Urban Miracle Grow) a free colonist and a free worker.

* Tier II has a kicker bonus of +1 health in every city and Virtue choices of +2 Population for newly founded Cities, +7 health empire wide and -25% Culture needed for border expansions.

* Tier III includes such choices as +1 Production from every Basic Resource; +1 Health from every type of Basic Resource that is improved;25% less negative health and +2 energy from any Population acting as a Specialist. I would obviously recommend buying every Tier I and II Prosperity Virtue and most of Tier 3 if going wide.

Secondary Virtue choices:

* Knowledge: I would recommend grabbing a few Virtues to offset the science penalty of spamming cities. At least Foresight, Social Mores and Laboratory Apprenticeship (+10% science when healthy, each city tile generates +0.25 culture per population, each city tile generates +0.25 science per population).

* Might: well you got to get the natives off your lawn after all but the Tier I Virtue Public Security gives you +0.25 Health for every military unit under your command is something you might want to seriously consider grabbing. Going wide equals having a large military out of necessity, in Civ V I typically have a ranged infantry unit garrisoned in every city; at least one, more often than not two, rapid reaction cavalry forces and a coastal defense fleet. With Public Security having 20 military units is +5 health; think about is all I am asking.

* Industry: Labor Logistics gives you +10% to building construction and Standardized Architecture pretty much gives you Rome's UA from Civ V (+25% Production towards Buildings which have already been built in the Capital). I would recommend grabbing those two to speed up your empire's development.

Now for techs to research first:

* If you didn't choose the Lab as your cargo option Pioneering should be one of the first techs you research.

* Ecology gives you the ultra-sonic fence, which is helpful for keeping the Siege Worms at bay so I recommend grabbing it quickly.

** It's leaf-tech Alien Biology gives you Harmony points (which can be a plus or minus depending on your affinity choice) but it also gives your workers the ability to clear Miasma and a Miasma Immunity which is tempting (since Miasma reduces the tile output in addition to damaging your units).

* Physics gives you access to the Ranger unit, your defensive infantry archer equivalent. You are going to want either this guy or an artillery unit stationed in each one of your cities so grab it.

* Computing which gives you your first artillery unit the Missile Rover (along with Gunboats and spies).

* Chemistry allows you to refine petrol and gives you access to the Lab and the Recycler (Eat Recycled Food).

* Planetary Survey allows your units to embark across oceans. Unless you are starting out on an island map and your starting island can only support one city you can put this off until later. You're still going to want to grab it eventually.

My recommended research queue is this: Ecology, Physics (or Pioneering if you didn't take the Lab, if so make Physics your third tech), Chemistry, Alien Biology, Computing, Planetary Survey.

Now granted all of this is subject to change come us actually playing the game but this is my opinion of how things stand right now in regards to starting out going wide. Thoughts?

Nice thoughts! And here are my own:
On factions: I agree that F-I is more suited for tall than wide as well as PAU, but ARC and Brazilia can also be played wide, they just do it differently. Playing wide means having a lot of cities, no matter where they come from. I'm not sure about Kozlov, he seems not favor either direction, although he needs to take the +15% to Wonders virtue to get the bonus for orbitals and that indicates a rather tall strategy. But, with many cities he will get a lot coverage, so it also a good idea to play him wide, it's really up to you. By the way, I really like the way the factions are designed, they are really flexible in that most can be played tall or wide.
On Spacecraft: Your idea about CS and TC is right, but you seem to underestimate the Lifeform Scanner. You see, the alien nests have Xenomass and it is a strategic resource, just like Titanium, so it has the same worth as TC, especially for Harmony. And Harmony apparently favors wide playstyle. On that occasion, from what we know, each Affinity favors their own playstyles: Purity is inclined to go tall and grab a lot of land via border expansion, Harmony as said favors wide. Supremacy is unclear, the devs just mentioned them to need a lot of energy and that can be done by playing it either way. So if you want go wide, consider taking harmony along the way. Of course, it's not set in stone, it's just what the known info implies. What do you think about it?

 

[Karl0413]

Nice thoughts! And here are my own:
On factions: I agree that F-I is more suited for tall than wide as well as PAU, but ARC and Brazilia can also be played wide, they just do it differently. Playing wide means having a lot of cities, no matter where they come from. I'm not sure about Kozlov, he seems not favor either direction, although he needs to take the +15% to Wonders virtue to get the bonus for orbitals and that indicates a rather tall strategy. But, with many cities he will get a lot coverage, so it also a good idea to play him wide, it's really up to you. By the way, I really like the way the factions are designed, they are really flexible in that most can be played tall or wide.
On Spacecraft: Your idea about CS and TC is right, but you seem to underestimate the Lifeform Scanner. You see, the alien nests have Xenomass and it is a strategic resource, just like Titanium, so it has the same worth as TC, especially for Harmony. And Harmony apparently favors wide playstyle. On that occasion, from what we know, each Affinity favors their own playstyles: Purity is inclined to go tall and grab a lot of land via border expansion, Harmony as said favors wide. Supremacy is unclear, the devs just mentioned them to need a lot of energy and that can be done by playing it either way. So if you want go wide, consider taking harmony along the way. Of course, it's not set in stone, it's just what the known info implies. What do you think about it?

Well Supremacy's Level 3 bonus, Roads and Magrails do not cost any Energy to maintain, is very conductive to going wide so that alone makes me think that Supremacy might be a good pick for a wide empire. I also agree with Harmony being the most obvious wide pick; the devs have repeatedly stressed that Harmony factions have an easier time expanding their territory and with techs like Alien Biology we can see why. And if you are planning to go Harmony from the start being able to locate Xenomass deposits automatically from turn one would be nice so the Lifeform Scanner would be a good pick. Now I didn't say you couldn't go wide as ARC and Brazilia; I just think Polystralia, PAC and KP have better UAs for doing so.

 

[Cyon]

Wide is also good for winning faster for harmony some more cities means more mind stalks that you can build which speeds up the mind flower transcendence victory

 

[swordoflight86]

Unless they have changed things from earlier Civ games, science is still the be-all and end-all of the game, so I would go with scientists, even though I wouldn't get the health boost.

After that, more thought is in order, but I would say that either hydroponics for the extra pop, which will give me a 5-10 turn leg up on 3 pop as well as 5-10 extra turns of resources, plus a science boost if science is still based on pop(is it?), or machinery so I can get right to improving my land. Improved tiles are a huge boost to a new city.

If I'm playing multiplayer, I would probably go with Retrograde Thrusters, because I can't just restart if I get a meh drop, so I need to maximize what I do get. Otherwise I would probably go with Continental Surveyor, so I can get the prime expansion spots.

As for techs and virtues, I missed that one, so I need to look that up before I can really say one way or another.

 

[indradiva]

science is always important, but they seem to have toned it down in this game. And expanding with scientists is much harder than with artists or aristocrats, because unhealth now reduces science and culture, so if you want to expand with scientists make sure you have health enough to do it.

 

[Rakshasa72]

The thing that really kills going wide in Civ V is arbitrary numbers like limits on trade routes and spies. Scaling cost on culture and science can hurt too. Unfortunately I don't really consider the game to be a 4X if you can't eXpand.

That being said I put my vote in for Scientists too. The per city science bonus will help you combat the scaling cost and get you through the tech web faster. Which in turn will get you more buildings and bonuses to combat any other limits on going wide.

 

[aguliondew]

In civ5:BNW science was toned down(per city tech penalty) and gold/culture based civs were improved(trade routes/tourism). Not sure what the negative health/energy penalties will be, since outposts can not help your civ until it turns into a city. Need a small army to clear some aliens and defend you outposts. Going to wide, to early and you may not be able to focus on key builds.

Wonder if the aliens aggression to a civ determines their spawn rate? On one of the videos I watched, aliens on a different continent were not aggression to you even though the one on by the capital were. Harmony could be the best for expansion if you can kill aliens without them getting mad or spawning a ton of units to kill you.

 

[Inhalaattori]

I personally think Artists seems really strong for wide strategy. Those extra virtues bring flexibility and that +1 health helps you also. Getting 3 cities pretty fast seems possible with artists + Prosperity and/or Industry.

 

[Lucius_]

The thing that really kills going wide in Civ V is arbitrary numbers like limits on trade routes and spies. Scaling cost on culture and science can hurt too. Unfortunately I don't really consider the game to be a 4X if you can't eXpand.

That being said I put my vote in for Scientists too. The per city science bonus will help you combat the scaling cost and get you through the tech web faster. Which in turn will get you more buildings and bonuses to combat any other limits on going wide.

I agree the science per city is nice to offset the science penalty for having a large empire. But until we know more about how health works and how easy is it to get health, it's difficult to say which will be more important for wide.

I noticed MadDjinn said industry can be a core virtue tree for wide, though I don't see much health in there. So that leads me to believe that health could be obtained from another source (likely tile improvements) so instead of using virtues to augment your health, you use virtues to augment your and since you will be working more health tiles and less mines and such.

Based on CiV though, I'll probably go artists for my first wide game.