Going Wide - Possible Strategies and Loadouts

[KrikkitTwo]

Genetics
And Trade depots
That's probably the secret to industry wide

You have 3 health/city from buildings in genetics.. So you can keep expanding as long as you keep your gold up.

Also Trade depots mean 2 x #cities = #trade routes
So 0.5 health/trade=1 health/city (1.5 with polystralia)
And that can be virtue #4 (directly after 'rome' bonus)


So I'd probably prioritize Genetics and engineering (thorium reactor for energy)....unless you got Aristocrats.

 

[3of5]

Genetics
And Trade depots
That's probably the secret to industry wide

You have 3 health/city from buildings in genetics.. So you can keep expanding as long as you keep your gold up.

Also Trade depots mean 2 x #cities = #trade routes
So 0.5 health/trade=1 health/city (1.5 with polystralia)
And that can be virtue #4 (directly after 'rome' bonus)


So I'd probably prioritize Genetics and engineering (thorium reactor for energy)....unless you got Aristocrats.

Don't forget that you can expand the health from clinic to +2 health via quest. I am also assuming that the genetics buildings would have a quest speccialization too. I'm gonna use artists, to make use of early virtues (and health), with commodization and maybe investment i'm in the green with energy then.

 

[mabalogna]

In my personal experience with REX and wide empires, the key with going wide is always production and energy. What you'll end up lacking the most in is production early on to build the important early buildings, and energy later on when you have to maintain all the buildings you've made. For this reason I think I would put more focus in Industry when doing an early REX strategy. Also keep in mind that in past CiV games, rapid expansion means your neighbours will get ticked off quickly as you gobble up territory they desire - because of this, I think its important to have Might/Industry be apart of the early build.

Also don't be so quick to dismiss +food and +growth for REX. PAU has the potential to free up citizens to work either specialist slots, or, work hills/mines and still being able to grow. Refugees basically gives you the ability to open up on Turn 1 with placing your first citizen on a Hill to get extra production and still grow, or speed up the time it takes to get to 2 pop and then work production/energy heavy tiles. +food/+growth doesn't just mean faster growth, it also means having more flexibility with where/how you place your citizens in each individual city.

I think that Engineers, Refugees, and Aristocrats will be the most useful. Culture and Science can snowball as you build more cities and will not be a problem once you're in the mid-game; late game a wide empires science/culture outputs can rival most tall empires if managed properly

 

[KrikkitTwo]

In my personal experience with REX and wide empires, the key with going wide is always production and energy. What you'll end up lacking the most in is production early on to build the important early buildings, and energy later on when you have to maintain all the buildings you've made. For this reason I think I would put more focus in Industry when doing an early REX strategy. Also keep in mind that in past CiV games, rapid expansion means your neighbours will get ticked off quickly as you gobble up territory they desire - because of this, I think its important to have Might/Industry be apart of the early build.

Also don't be so quick to dismiss +food and +growth for REX. PAU has the potential to free up citizens to work either specialist slots, or, work hills/mines and still being able to grow. Refugees basically gives you the ability to open up on Turn 1 with placing your first citizen on a Hill to get extra production and still grow, or speed up the time it takes to get to 2 pop and then work production/energy heavy tiles. +food/+growth doesn't just mean faster growth, it also means having more flexibility with where/how you place your citizens in each individual city.

PAU is +growth rather than +food, so it doesn't really free that much up

Refugees do though

 

[OldEarthRelic]

They always talk about a tall/wide balance (I don't know why - there does not seem to be an inverse relationship between size and technological advancement in the real world). Since they've pumped up wide with the colonists, they'll probably nerf it some other way (e.g. higher science penalty, culture penalty etc.)

 

[KrikkitTwo]

They always talk about a tall/wide balance (I don't know why - there does not seem to be an inverse relationship between size and technological advancement in the real world). Since they've pumped up wide with the colonists, they'll probably nerf it some other way (e.g. higher science penalty, culture penalty etc.)

Wide is nerfed by the fact that there is no resource health... can't just say 1 lux/new city and you are OK... there is No luxs, instead each new city needs to build up enough building health Just to support the city.. not even worrying about the population.

 

[mabalogna]

PAU is +growth rather than +food, so it doesn't really free that much up

Refugees do though

True - but mid-late game, with enough food in a city, the 10% bonus could translate to more than 3 food per city which would make PAU's ability stronger than Refugees in the long run, however, refugees would be a stronger pick for early REX.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

True - but mid-late game, with enough food in a city, the 10% bonus could translate to more than 3 food per city which would make PAU's ability stronger than Refugees in the long run, however, refugees would be a stronger pick for early REX.

PAUs benefit will not give you 3 food per city...almost Ever.

It is +10% Growth Not +10% Food. (the text is wrong (at least in the latest 100 turn videos)

Which means you will need 21 Excess food to beat refugees, which is probably not going to happen in a city that is smaller than 20 or so..

 

[The Dark Knight]

I think going tall and eventually going wide is optimal here:

- There is a tile improvement call "biowell": it gives 2 food, 1 health and costs 2 energy.
If u build 6 - 8 around every city (and 3 generators to compensate).
- Build all health buildings u can
- Get the virtues "9. Community Medicine
+1 health for every 6 citizens in a city" and
the tier 3 prosperity health virtues "12. Joy from Variety
+1 health for every type of improved Basic Resource" and "15. Eudaimonia
25% less negative health"

- There is an orbital unit called "Weather Controller" wich gives "+1 Food on tile you own; Generates new Basic Resources on unimproved tiles" This stacks with "Joy from Variety" if u didn't have that type already.

If u can build and sustain enough health buildings and biowells nothing is going to stop u from going tall (4 - 5 city's) into going wide (10 - 15 city's).

 

[manu-fan]

Have we got definite information on extra cost of Virtues and Techs with each city? Is it the same as Civ 5?

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Have we got definite information on extra cost of Virtues and Techs with each city? Is it the same as Civ 5?

There was a mouse over, I believe it was 10% in the 100 turn demo

 

[DarkestOnion]

Harmony (Less Persistent Alien Aggro)
Kavithan Protectorate (+50% Outpost to City Speed)
Artists (+1 Health/City, +2 Culture/City- More Virtues)
Retrograde Thrusters (To insure an optimal Capital)
Machinery (Free Worker to Build Health Tile Improvements)

Virtues Required
PROSPERITY- Frugality, Homesteading, Colony Initiative, Helping Hands, Pioneer Spirit, Settler Clans, Mind Over Matter, Hands Never Idle, Eudaimonia

KNOWLEDGE- Foresight, Social Mores, Creative Class, Laboratory Apprenticeship, Cohesive Values, Networked Datalinks, Memeweb, Learning Centers, Monomyth, Technoartisans

Free Virtue from Tier 1 Breadth Bonus
Free Virtue/+1 Covert Agent from Tier 2 Breadth Bonus
+10% Culture/+10% Science from Knowledge Depth Bonuses

I intend to alternate between Prosperity and Knowledge to get Tier 1 and then Tier 2 Breadth Bonuses.

What do you folks think of my workup?

 

[Acken]

Here are my thoughts on what you have chosen:
For this I assume that we base this mostly on civ5 and that health is the priority for wide empires

-For wide, if investing into Prosperity you'd like the tier 2 prosperity bonus at 10virtues (+1 health per city).
-I don't like Monomyth for wide. Wide empires usually have more trouble in civ5 to spam wonders.
-Since health is usually your limited ressource for wide, I doubt Creative class is good. You will probably struggle to keep your happiness high enough to keep growing so getting 50% of your meager positive health is just bad. Or in that case, at least take Applied Aesthetics which look like the better of the two.
-If you take Cohesive Values (which value is questionable) you may want Community medicine as your cities reach reasonable pop numbers. If you get at least 6 and then 12 pop per city it is definetely a very good virtue.
-Metaresearch is in my opinion one of the best virtue in knowledge. Unless we research very few leaf techs, but I doubt it. Leafs cost more than the rest, this virtue cuts down 20% out of every one of them. Sounds too good to pass. I'm reserved on Memewebs (like Cohesive values) as well as learning centers because I have no idea how academy works in that game. If it's like civ5, learning centers would be TERRIBLE.
-Prosperity also has Joy from variety which can be a good health source.

Finally we will have to see what kind of stuff multiple cities affect and what kind of mechanics scale with wide empire. For example if trade routes number scale with wide empires, we would get a lot of benefits from everything affecting them. Or for example, does the game have a National wonder mechanic ? In which case trying to get some good production bonuses in a wide empire would be critical (or gold).
Either way I'd value standardized architecture a lot even if you don't invest more into Industry.

 

[Lucius_]

-Metaresearch is in my opinion one of the best virtue in knowledge. Unless we research very few leaf techs, but I doubt it. Leafs cost more than the rest, this virtue cuts down 20% out of every one of them. Sounds too good to pass. I'm reserved on Memewebs (like Cohesive values) as well as learning centers because I have no idea how academy works in that game. If it's like civ5, learning centers would be TERRIBLE.

Agreed on Metaresearch. I assume memewebs would change the culture cost of founding new cities from 10% increase per city down to 5%. I could see that synergizing well with Cohesive values as the latter becomes stronger the more cities you have and the higher your virtue cost becomes. Academies appear to work the same as in CiV, +6 Science so the virtue makes it +8 on the tile. Not sure why you'd say it's terrible. I'm assuming due to being wide and not having enough citizens in a single city to work tons of academies.

Finally we will have to see what kind of stuff multiple cities affect and what kind of mechanics scale with wide empire. For example if trade routes number scale with wide empires, we would get a lot of benefits from everything affecting them. Or for example, does the game have a National wonder mechanic ? In which case trying to get some good production bonuses in a wide empire would be critical (or gold).
Either way I'd value standardized architecture a lot even if you don't invest more into Industry.

EVERY city in CivBE gets 2 trade routes with a trade depot. That may be upgradable, not sure and of course Polystralia gets an additional trade route per city. I think trade routes will be very key for wide empires.

Not much is known about national wonders afaik. I believe we know of 1 or 2 but can't think of what or where I saw that.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I suspect that covert agents will scale with the number of cities as well. It clearly can't be linked to eras, it doesn't seem to be linked to Affinities, and there are only a few in virtues. And they don't seem to be in the tech web.

So either covert agents can be built like trade units or they come from a building that can be built in each city, perhaps the Spy Agency.

And if espionage does scale with the number of cities, it would behoove the ARC to be at least a little wide.

It would be highly amusing to set of a dirty bomb in every city in a tall empire on the same turn that they declared war on you.

 

[Acken]

Agreed on Metaresearch. I assume memewebs would change the culture cost of founding new cities from 10% increase per city down to 5%. I could see that synergizing well with Cohesive values as the latter becomes stronger the more cities you have and the higher your virtue cost becomes. Academies appear to work the same as in CiV, +6 Science so the virtue makes it +8 on the tile. Not sure why you'd say it's terrible. I'm assuming due to being wide and not having enough citizens in a single city to work tons of academies.

I don't see why people think cohessive value is better for wide than small empire (see the other thread). Sure the saved raw culture is higher but that is the wrong way to look at it. You want to look at it on whether or not it will give you more virtues in the long run as a wide empire than a tall empire. And so far early maths have proven that both tall and wide would get approximately as many virtues out of it which is 1 after 30 virtues (if taken early).

I'd have to reuse my excell table to see for memewebs but that one is clearly better for wide empire than tall due to direct scaling with number of cities. Cohesive value doesn't scale with size, it just cuts down by 10%. However Cohesive value leads Metaresearch whic is imo very good.

Edit: Memewebs is indeed really good after quick testing. Even with only 4 cities it pays off faster than cohesive values, with like 8 it becomes quite crazy.

EVERY city in CivBE gets 2 trade routes with a trade depot. That may be upgradable, not sure and of course Polystralia gets an additional trade route per city. I think trade routes will be very key for wide empires.

Not much is known about national wonders afaik. I believe we know of 1 or 2 but can't think of what or where I saw that.

Good thing, trade routes not scaling with empire size in BNW is one of the major issue with wide play. Let's hope it doesn't make wide too good though.

 

[3of5]

So either covert agents can be built like trade units or they come from a building that can be built in each city, perhaps the Spy Agency.

I expect agents to be finite (a given number through the national wonder, from affinity tier maybe and from some virtues and wonders (from buildings would inherently benefit wide empires so i don't think that will happen). But in BE spys are useful even if you have a tech lead and don't care about diplomacy victory (because there is none). Having a tech lead does not automatically mean that stealing techs is goind to become difficult. There will always be leaf techs to steal from your neigbors while you advance selectively through the web. Thats why i tink ARC would be a really good faction, and the only one that can yield a possible science advantage (even if it is only the scraps left behind that you're getting).

I like how they have linked trade unit number to number of cities though (offsetting the maintance problem when going wide).

 

[MadDjinn]

"[..] you may want Community medicine as your cities reach reasonable pop numbers. If you get at least 6 and then 12 pop per city it is definetely a very good virtue."

1 health every 6 pop is a horrible conversion.

If you're going super wide, then you want the Prosperity 2 kicker and the 25% reduction in unhealth at the end of the tree. The extra +7 health and +1/basic resource are just bonus after that.

A Prosperity+Industry combo plan to hit all health is actually overkill though. Might be useful for the biggest maps when going total war (full kill Domination).

for metaresearch, well, 2/3'rds of the techs are leaf techs.

 

[Karl0413]

If you're going super wide, then you want the Prosperity 2 kicker and the 25% reduction in unhealth at the end of the tree. The extra +7 health and +1/basic resource are just bonus after that.

A Prosperity+Industry combo plan to hit all health is actually overkill though. Might be useful for the biggest maps when going total war (full kill Domination).

You said earlier that you think Industry works better with Polystralia going wide. Say I am playing Polystralia and I invest heavily in that as my core Virtue Tree, going far enough in to grab Magnasanti; exactly how much of Prosperity would you recommend grabbing? Only Tier Is or some Tier IIs? I think I would probably want to grab Gift Economy at the very least.

 

[OldEarthRelic]

Another issue with wide is the time it takes to go from outpost to city - 15 turns seems like a lot (and you still have to build/move them). Yes this can be shortened by being Kav or with a trade route, but it's still a hurdle.

Also, if I put my outpost somewhere, can a foreign city come down within 3/4 tiles of it? Or does the outpost claim the space?