sirdanilot
BBcode owns in sigs!
^ What do you mean with that? 
Golden Age
- Thread starter Paul#42
- Start date
cubsfan6506
Got u
If we don't get the resources nobody gets them because thsi map is fair and balanced also they wouldn't do that because that would favor one team.
sirdanilot
BBcode owns in sigs!
Well allright, I agree it would be really unfair if we'd miss a resource for a space race, so I think we must assume that this is not going to happen.
donsig
Low level intermediary
Some interesting reading in this old thread. (The post before this one is almost a year old!)
cubsfan said nukes can't destroy nukes. We need to find out if that is true.
Our early GA thinking was that building the Internet to trigger our GA was best. Now I think we are leaning towards using another trigger (Magellan's?) so we can use our GA to get the Internet. Is this correct?
cubsfan said nukes can't destroy nukes. We need to find out if that is true.
Our early GA thinking was that building the Internet to trigger our GA was best. Now I think we are leaning towards using another trigger (Magellan's?) so we can use our GA to get the Internet. Is this correct?
Those five days you could have waited to pass also...
I'm also leaning towards starting it earlier.
Either by Magellan's or by our UU in the battle for SCI. That would be the sure bet, if anybody beats us to Magellan's by a turn, our plans are dust...
And: Our GA triggered by wonder (or in defense), we can't plan your production for the first turn of the GA as easily as by starting it on our active turn. I need to see those extra shields to be sure.
The Modern Times are surprising close, we need to fuel our productivity.
I'd like to trigger our GA SOON, even if it means we spend two turns of it researching MilTrad or Navigation (or even Espionage) which basically is a waiting loop to get into SABER's slipstream...
9600 or 17400 beakers to Miniaturization.
CA2 says we could do 1600bpt in Golden Age - at 100% and -156gpt.
Sounds like we'd need ten turns and 2,000 gold in the worst case.
The Internet will enhance our research by 25% (50% of base commerce). That's just 2,000 instead of 1,600.
Still some techs to go after our GA ended - no matter when we have it...
I think our GA is best invested to secure The Internet.
Our only chance to get it if we don't negotiate with SABER on it.
I'm sure, chamnix also thinks about how to get it... He must be preparing some offensive war to use his nation's strength, right?
I'd like to trigger our GA SOON, even if it means we spend two turns of it researching MilTrad or Navigation (or even Espionage) which basically is a waiting loop to get into SABER's slipstream...
9600 or 17400 beakers to Miniaturization.
CA2 says we could do 1600bpt in Golden Age - at 100% and -156gpt.
Sounds like we'd need ten turns and 2,000 gold in the worst case.
The Internet will enhance our research by 25% (50% of base commerce). That's just 2,000 instead of 1,600.
Still some techs to go after our GA ended - no matter when we have it...
I think our GA is best invested to secure The Internet.
Our only chance to get it if we don't negotiate with SABER on it.
I'm sure, chamnix also thinks about how to get it... He must be preparing some offensive war to use his nation's strength, right?
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
I don't have a direct opinion on using a Golden Age to help us get the Internet, since I'm not an MM guy - but I just wanted to speak up and say that I'll take a $20 wager against anyone here that Chamnix already has an internet pre-build planned down to the exact turn and shield.
If we want to have any hope of beating Saber to it - we need to drag our MM-masters in here and beg them to roll up their sleeves, do the hard math, and get us a detailed plan.
I propose we offer a new trophy and permanent bragging rights for the first Councilor to create this kind of plan for us.
(Plus a spot in The Council pantheon of gods if their plan successfully gets us the internet!)
Can anyone help?
To summarize:
#1)
#2)
#3)
#4)
If we want to have any hope of beating Saber to it - we need to drag our MM-masters in here and beg them to roll up their sleeves, do the hard math, and get us a detailed plan.
I propose we offer a new trophy and permanent bragging rights for the first Councilor to create this kind of plan for us.
(Plus a spot in The Council pantheon of gods if their plan successfully gets us the internet!)
Can anyone help?
To summarize:
#1)
#2)
#3)
#4)
The safest bet might be to have two pre-builds, one for if we get computers as our free tech and only need to research miniaturization and one for if we need to research both Computers and miniaturization, the second pre-build can perhaps be used for the SETI Program (has same effect as cops and newton)
Of course there is an opportunity cost of having two of our best cities both building wonders.
We could also look to see if it would be possible to slow down a build enough for the time it takes to research an extra tech, this might only be possible by selling a factory.
Of course there is an opportunity cost of having two of our best cities both building wonders.
We could also look to see if it would be possible to slow down a build enough for the time it takes to research an extra tech, this might only be possible by selling a factory.
That is possible at the cost of beakers and maybe population. Just turn all citizens scientist and you'll get 6 spt in The Treasury for instance - and 99 instead of 150bpt.
Even chamnix cannot know how many turns there are left to Miniaturization. Two major unknown variables even for him: Our research pace and both our free techs.[...]but I just wanted to speak up and say that I'll take a $20 wager against anyone here that Chamnix already has an internet pre-build planned down to the exact turn and shield.
[...]#4)
I'll pm you my account number to send me the 20$ immediately, you chamnix - adherer
donsig
Low level intermediary
I think Paul got you there General. So now I'm more convinced we go for navigation instead of military tradition - even if we decide to trigger our GA with a h'watcha. Would Magellan's trigger a SABER golden age? It seems we'd have a slight edge in this race if we use our golden age and SABER can't.
cubsfan6506
Got u
Wow this thread is really old, I'm prettt sure about those nukes, but I'll test it again.
BTW I was really into nukes then wasn't I.
BTW I was really into nukes then wasn't I.
cubsfan6506
Got u
What I said about the nukes is true
AutomatedTeller
Frequent poster
Internet takes 1000 shields to build. So we need 1000 shields.
Computers takes 7800 beakers, Miniaturization 9600.
Paul says that 100% gives us 1600 bpt in a GA - I'd assume that it gives us 1500 at 90%.
Our top city is the treasury, it can build in 10-11 turns in a GA.
So, if we spend some time doing a prebuild while we research our last tech and we can kick off our GA, we should be able to time a prebuild to finish the turn after we should get miniaturization if we get computers as our free tech and turn that into something like Battlefield medicine if we don't and still giving us time to flip it over to a prebuild for SETI while we research computers.
Wonder what internet would do for our culture? We have, what... 25 cities? We'd get an immediate boost of 50 cpt, which would still put us less than 50% of gong's cpt, right? So not all that much.
What does the internet buy us, btw? Labs are only 100 shields, so our best cities can build them from scratch pretty quickly, which has the advantage of getting us the labs 10-13 turns earlier. We could go for nuclear power faster and get us nuke plants, go for fission to find uranium, go for rocketry for aluminum and tow infantry or research to synth fibers for modern armor, which we could use to wipe out our enemies (if we wanted)
I guess what I'm saying is that we can get a lot of the benefit of the internet for the same shield cost sooner. Sure, we have to pay an additonal 20 gpt in maintenance and miss out on an extra 15 labs or so, which is a downside.
hmm. I wonder if we can give them rights to SETI if we have rights to the internet - it will help us more than them, anyway, since we have less corruption and the free labs will help us more.
btw - I think we have to get mil trad to these guys - it's been part of two treaties and we still don't have it.
Computers takes 7800 beakers, Miniaturization 9600.
Paul says that 100% gives us 1600 bpt in a GA - I'd assume that it gives us 1500 at 90%.
Our top city is the treasury, it can build in 10-11 turns in a GA.
So, if we spend some time doing a prebuild while we research our last tech and we can kick off our GA, we should be able to time a prebuild to finish the turn after we should get miniaturization if we get computers as our free tech and turn that into something like Battlefield medicine if we don't and still giving us time to flip it over to a prebuild for SETI while we research computers.
Wonder what internet would do for our culture? We have, what... 25 cities? We'd get an immediate boost of 50 cpt, which would still put us less than 50% of gong's cpt, right? So not all that much.
What does the internet buy us, btw? Labs are only 100 shields, so our best cities can build them from scratch pretty quickly, which has the advantage of getting us the labs 10-13 turns earlier. We could go for nuclear power faster and get us nuke plants, go for fission to find uranium, go for rocketry for aluminum and tow infantry or research to synth fibers for modern armor, which we could use to wipe out our enemies (if we wanted)
I guess what I'm saying is that we can get a lot of the benefit of the internet for the same shield cost sooner. Sure, we have to pay an additonal 20 gpt in maintenance and miss out on an extra 15 labs or so, which is a downside.
hmm. I wonder if we can give them rights to SETI if we have rights to the internet - it will help us more than them, anyway, since we have less corruption and the free labs will help us more.
btw - I think we have to get mil trad to these guys - it's been part of two treaties and we still don't have it.
donsig
Low level intermediary
I don't think we should give away SETI. Won't that help us alot since we have Newtons? We're getting near the end of this race and at some point we need to leave the competition behind us.
SETI is also 1000 shields. There's a 25% chance we'd get computers as a free tech, and 7/16 chance (almost 50-50) that either SABER or us will get computers as a bonus. What does SETI give us? It doubles scientific output, but both The Treasury and The Chamber have a doubling wonder. How does a second one affect beaker output? Ok, looks like the second doubling wonder would add the same amount of beakers as the first one. At 100% science that looks like ~60bpt for The Chamber, ~55bpt for The Treasury and ~40bpt for The Admiralty or The Igloo. Spending 400 shields for labs in The Chamber and The Treasury get us almost as many bpt as the 1000 shields from SETI would. Ok, I see now how attractive the 1000 shield investment in the Internet is.
The question(s) to be answered now are, do we need SETI or the Internet (or both)? How important is it to deny these wonders to our competitors? What are our chances of building one or the other without using our golden age? Is SABER our only competitor or does FREE have a shot at either?
Imagine a golden age kicked off after we have one or both of these wonders.
SETI is also 1000 shields. There's a 25% chance we'd get computers as a free tech, and 7/16 chance (almost 50-50) that either SABER or us will get computers as a bonus. What does SETI give us? It doubles scientific output, but both The Treasury and The Chamber have a doubling wonder. How does a second one affect beaker output? Ok, looks like the second doubling wonder would add the same amount of beakers as the first one. At 100% science that looks like ~60bpt for The Chamber, ~55bpt for The Treasury and ~40bpt for The Admiralty or The Igloo. Spending 400 shields for labs in The Chamber and The Treasury get us almost as many bpt as the 1000 shields from SETI would. Ok, I see now how attractive the 1000 shield investment in the Internet is.
The question(s) to be answered now are, do we need SETI or the Internet (or both)? How important is it to deny these wonders to our competitors? What are our chances of building one or the other without using our golden age? Is SABER our only competitor or does FREE have a shot at either?
Imagine a golden age kicked off after we have one or both of these wonders.
AutomatedTeller
Frequent poster
We get labs for 100 shields (1/2 price, cause we are scientific)
Best use of our Golden Age imo would be to build these wonders AND use them. So like getting The Internet after 7-12 turns of our GA is not bad at all.
Before we face those expensive MT techs we'd have some "cheap" IA research at lower science rate to do, piling some gold (at the same rate as later) and not missing the beaker multiplyers too much.
So I'd prefer this way:
Get a cheap tech (MilTrad or Navigation) while conquering SCI. #196-#199
Start GA in #199 (or #198) using a Hwatch'a.
If we trigger by Magellan's, we'd need to build from #197 to ~#201 in The Admirality - or cancel the plane and switch now for a finish in #199.
We get Electronics from #199 to #204 piling some more gold and entering MT in #204.
prebuild one (The Treasury) scheduled for #205. With 125spt in GA we'd need 8 turns. We'd start right after the current bomber and need GA real soon...
prebuild two (The Chamber) scheduled for #210.
If we get Computers, The Treasury builds SETI in #206.
If SABER gets Computers, The Treasury builds SETI in #207 (unless SABER does).
If we have to research Computers, The Treasury builds an expensive bank... or is reset to 500 shields by switching to battlefield medicine...
The Chamber than resets and starts the second prebuild later.
Q:
chamnix will be aware of the advantage the slower researcher of the last IA techs has. How will he cope with it? Will he delay research artificially?
If SABER should get Computers and refuse to share it, our plans are dust...
Huh, now I'm confused...
If we don't get any of those wonders, our GA is not wasted, we'd build labs in a hurry and we'd still cruise away in tech during the remaining 10 turns of our Golden Age...
Before we face those expensive MT techs we'd have some "cheap" IA research at lower science rate to do, piling some gold (at the same rate as later) and not missing the beaker multiplyers too much.
So I'd prefer this way:
Get a cheap tech (MilTrad or Navigation) while conquering SCI. #196-#199
Start GA in #199 (or #198) using a Hwatch'a.
If we trigger by Magellan's, we'd need to build from #197 to ~#201 in The Admirality - or cancel the plane and switch now for a finish in #199.
We get Electronics from #199 to #204 piling some more gold and entering MT in #204.
prebuild one (The Treasury) scheduled for #205. With 125spt in GA we'd need 8 turns. We'd start right after the current bomber and need GA real soon...
prebuild two (The Chamber) scheduled for #210.
If we get Computers, The Treasury builds SETI in #206.
If SABER gets Computers, The Treasury builds SETI in #207 (unless SABER does).
If we have to research Computers, The Treasury builds an expensive bank... or is reset to 500 shields by switching to battlefield medicine...
The Chamber than resets and starts the second prebuild later.
Q:
chamnix will be aware of the advantage the slower researcher of the last IA techs has. How will he cope with it? Will he delay research artificially?
If SABER should get Computers and refuse to share it, our plans are dust...
Huh, now I'm confused...
If we don't get any of those wonders, our GA is not wasted, we'd build labs in a hurry and we'd still cruise away in tech during the remaining 10 turns of our Golden Age...
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
A few random comments from me:
@Paul - ah, we've been able to roughly calculate Saber's tech ability... I don't see why they couldn't do the same? And there's no reason Chamnix couldn't have 3 or 4 plans to cover the various possibilities of the free techs!
I find your lack of faith, disturbing...
I think it's really unlikely that Saber will fail to give us their Bonus Tech.
They might go slow at the end, like we're talking about - but I highly doubt they'll blatantly violate the treaty. With all the other variables we have to worry about, I don't think we should waste much time on this one. (Other than to realize we should avoid intentionally antagonizing FREE, just in case Saber goes wacky on us)
Finally - regarding the Internet ... The argument about being able to build labs before we can build the internet is compelling in many ways... especially since we get labs at 1/2 price. But one thing I haven't heard mentioned here is the fact that Labs add to the pollution of cities.
... The Internet would spare us some of the tile shuffling that goes on due to pollution.
@Paul - ah, we've been able to roughly calculate Saber's tech ability... I don't see why they couldn't do the same? And there's no reason Chamnix couldn't have 3 or 4 plans to cover the various possibilities of the free techs!
I find your lack of faith, disturbing...
I think it's really unlikely that Saber will fail to give us their Bonus Tech.
They might go slow at the end, like we're talking about - but I highly doubt they'll blatantly violate the treaty. With all the other variables we have to worry about, I don't think we should waste much time on this one. (Other than to realize we should avoid intentionally antagonizing FREE, just in case Saber goes wacky on us)
Finally - regarding the Internet ... The argument about being able to build labs before we can build the internet is compelling in many ways... especially since we get labs at 1/2 price. But one thing I haven't heard mentioned here is the fact that Labs add to the pollution of cities.
... The Internet would spare us some of the tile shuffling that goes on due to pollution.AutomatedTeller
Frequent poster
um.
The internet gives us labs in all our cities and they will produce pollution. Pollution is a fact of life now
The internet gives us labs in all our cities and they will produce pollution. Pollution is a fact of life now
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
it doesn't just create the effect? 
Bah. I'll be quiet now.
Carry on....
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