Good God

Commander

Chieftain
Joined
Feb 4, 2002
Messages
20
I've been a player of the Civ series since Civ1 came out on the Amiga about 10 years ago, but this whole deposing of the governor bit is getting annoying. I conquer another civilization and half the time the cities revert back to their original owner in a few turns. One time I lost about a dozen troops in a city I just conquered to this stupid disposing of the governor bit. I liked the partisans much better in Civ2, and think this is a tad ridiculous. Shouldn't they have periodic paritisan revolts, or peasant uprisings instead of just freely taking the city without a fight.

In game terms, if one were to do a WW2 scenerio, it would be frustrating when playing the Germans, only to have the citizens of Paris depose of the governor when there are loads of infantry and or armor in the city.

Thats not even borderline possible in real life. Not at least without a major fight between French partisans and German military forces. Civ3 could have done much better in this area of the game.

City switching should be ultra rare, and only during a period of relative peacetime (50 turns of world peace, not including barbarians), and also, only before the industrial age. By the industrial age, borders are typically well established, and the idea of some city switching allegiance, free of charge and without a fight is silly.
 

Mozenwrath

Warlord
Joined
Sep 22, 2001
Messages
280
Location
The Hotel California
Apparently, The number of ground units in a city DOES lessen the chance of a revolt. Apart from that, I usually just use the autosave to move my trrops out of a city before it revolts OR move more troops in. This way you can either easily recappture the city or it won't revolt at all.:D
 

etj4Eagle

ACME Salesman
Joined
Dec 6, 2001
Messages
614
Location
Columbus, OH
There is a thread in the forum on culture flipping I think entitled "Cultural Flipping Exposed" it was started by one of teh developers and gives the run down on how cultural flipping is determined. Also in there are some good tactics for preventing cultural flips.

The one thing you may want to try is not putting a large garrison in the city. Troops have only a small effect. Instead put some old troops in there to quell the resistors and a good defender. Also in taking the city bombard the heck out of the city to drive down its population. The number of foreignors (with resistors counting double) and the number of the 21 squares you don't control form the basis for determing your chance for flipping. Also gets those cities into WLKD to halve the chance for flipping.

In the modern world, yes cultural flipping would be very rare, but in the ancient world I don't find the concept so strange.
 

cat98

Pharaoh
Joined
Dec 3, 2001
Messages
132
Location
Calgary, Alberta, Canada (or: Egypt
The Industrial age is not an ancient time. ;)
The culture flipping thing is really, really wierd. I wonder if there is a way to turn it off altogether, and getting rid of "some" corruption might be nice too...:D
 

Vinc

Prince
Joined
Sep 22, 2001
Messages
316
Location
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
I must say that it's a bit unrealistics... It should be impossible when a city has a garrison of two or more since the unit should stop the revolting people. And it should not happen after the industrial age. Also, I think that only captured cities should revert, not cities you founded.
 

BillChin

Prince
Joined
Jan 7, 2002
Messages
494
The programmers say that garrisons help deter flips, but my experience is exactly the opposite. The greatest chance of culture flip seems to occur with large garrisons. The best way to combat flips during war is to station troops outside the city and retake it when it flips. If I am low on troops, I may raze the city or leave it devoid of troops, waiting for cultural borders to expand a bit. A large garrison is a recipe for cursing the computer, the programmers and the game. Station your troops outside of the city and avoid this frustration.

I think flips are supposed to be troops defecting due to superior culture not a fight against the resistance. However, the only historical cases of mass defections that I can think of, are during civil wars. French troops sent to capture Napolean join his army. Russian imperial troops sent to quell the peasants with pitchforks refuse to fire on them. There are cases where military conquests do not change the way of life, and the conquerors become assimilated into the dominant culture.

Originally posted by Mozenwrath
Apparently, The number of ground units in a city DOES lessen the chance of a revolt. Apart from that, I usually just use the autosave to move my trrops out of a city before it revolts OR move more troops in. This way you can either easily recappture the city or it won't revolt at all.:D
 

Badluck

Warlord
Joined
Dec 15, 2001
Messages
234
rase the city use the worker you gain to join other cities or use those one to build the land around the city you will sound found right there and after use them to join your new citi...
it will be a little less big but at least it won't culture flip back, or with very low chance of doing so...
 

satchel

Prince
Joined
Dec 26, 2001
Messages
427
Location
at work - wishing I were civving
While I found culture flipping annoying when I first started playing - because it was surprising and costly - the fact that it's arguably less "realistic" than other aspects of the game really doesn't bother me. I have learned to cope with it as a game reality that needs to be considered along with other apsects of the game that make it (to me) far more challenging than CivII was. Here's what I do:

1. crank on culture. I try to make my civ as culturally dominant as I can.
2. when taking cities, I do one of the following -
(a) bombard the population down below 6 so there are fewer resistors to deal with (this has the added bonus of reducing defense bonuses, making the city easier to take);
(b) raze the city, if it doesn't have a wonder I want, and bring in a settler with my invasion force to rebuild in the location to claim any resources and expand my borders. ta-daa! no reversion.

I can't really complain too much about culture flipping because I benefit from it as often as not, given that I place such a premium on culture when I am building. I usually convert 3-5 neighboring cities in the ancient era and middle ages.
 

Troyens

Warlord
Joined
Jan 6, 2002
Messages
195
Originally posted by Commander
I've been a player of the Civ series since Civ1 came out on the Amiga about 10 years ago, but this whole deposing of the governor bit is getting annoying. I conquer another civilization and half the time the cities revert back to their original owner in a few turns. One time I lost about a dozen troops in a city I just conquered to this stupid disposing of the governor bit. I liked the partisans much better in Civ2, and think this is a tad ridiculous... Thats not even borderline possible in real life. Not at least without a major fight between French partisans and German military forces. Civ3 could have done much better in this area of the game.

City switching should be ultra rare, and only during a period of relative peacetime (50 turns of world peace, not including barbarians), and also, only before the industrial age. By the industrial age, borders are typically well established, and the idea of some city switching allegiance, free of charge and without a fight is silly.

You are 100% correct!!

Culture Flipping cities - and borders - is the biggest crock I've seen in a game since Civ II's AI buildng battleships in lakes.

The Disappearing Garrisons in Civ III is about as stupid as bombers being unable to sink warships, also another bizarre Civ III feature.

Send your complaints to: http://www.firaxis.com/contact_gamefeedback.cfm

Oh yes, another crock is all the silly advice about using autosave to load and reload games to get it the right way. If Sid hadn't screwed up in the first place we wouldn't have to bother.
 

Troyens

Warlord
Joined
Jan 6, 2002
Messages
195
Originally posted by BillChin
The programmers say that garrisons help deter flips, but my experience is exactly the opposite. The greatest chance of culture flip seems to occur with large garrisons. The best way to combat flips during war is to station troops outside the city and retake it when it flips...

Which is totally ABSURD of Civ III as no city population would ever rebel/defect with a huge garrison directly outside the city ready to destroy them. Also, retaking it during peace would make you a "warmonger", according to the game. :crazyeyes

The programmers have admitted that garrisons MINIMALLY deter flipping. They should have a HUGE effect on flipping. I personally don't think they make any difference at all. Of course, garrisons just vanish into thin air when a city flips! :lol:

This Culture Flipping crap also goes on with borders. I have had a border flip on my road, mine, and garrisoned fortress within one of my citiy's boundaries - and then I am ordered to leave. If I won't, I get blamed for any war by the entire world forever.

Culture Flipping was never in Civ I or II. I want to know what idiot at Firaxis insisted in putting it in Civ III. Sid, fess up. :mad:
 

Commander

Chieftain
Joined
Feb 4, 2002
Messages
20
Thats another problem I have. Razing cities, I would think this would cause major diplomatic penalties, equivalent to a nuke attack. Lets see here, I conquer New York City, but I dont want it, so just kill 7 million people and burn it to the ground. That should turn a few heads against you.

There should be periodic partisan resistance movements of foriegn nationals with whose countries you are at war with. Which would be better than Civ2's, partisans on the initial conquest of a city. And in the medieval times there would be peasant revolts.
 

Woody

General
Joined
Nov 16, 2001
Messages
439
I only have one thing to say, your not playing CivII anymore. Yes there are several new and different concepts in CivIII, whining about them doesnt help, you have to learn how to play the game within the new rules.

Culture flips dont bother me a bit anymore, in any given game I will be on the right end of them more often than not because I keep my culture high and plan my wars carefully.

The main way I keep cities from flipping is to keep my wars short and to the death. If you eliminate the enemy civilization you eliminate the chance of a city flipping back to it. I capture cities and only leave one unit behind and keep pressing the attack. Sometimes the city will flip the next turn but I only loose one unit and the enemy only gets one or two weak defenders that are easily defeated again. Once the enemy is gone then I go back and quell the resistance and start building up the city.
 

chiefpaco

Emperor
Joined
Dec 26, 2001
Messages
1,381
Location
Fanatika - Where did everybody go?
I think flipping is one of the most interesting aspects of the game. Totally changes my strategy - instead of fighting just their units, you have to fight their culture too.

If you take a city surrounded by their borders, you have to expect it to flip in a few turns. However, by taking out their surrounding cities, and you have a much better chance of holding on to it.

Plus I laughed a lot when I once saw my Babylonian AI opponent lost a load of invading but resting units when a city desposed on him!
 

camens

Chieftain
Joined
Jan 13, 2002
Messages
25
I agree that culture flipping while on a conquest mission is frustrating, but I found that I can generally manage it.

I only place 1 unit in a city I've conquered. If it flips I simply re-conquer it with other units that are on their way to the front lines. I used to pile units into a key city, but it would flip and really hurt my offense. Now flipping doesn't really bother me.

When I'm conquering overseas, I usually bring a settler along to create my own city. If railroads are already laid, I bring all my tanks to that city for repair. It never flips so I never loose tanks that are being repaired.

As for razing a city, it wouldn't be popular, but has been suggested. Hitler said he would not accept Stalingrads surrender, he wanted the city destroyed. It was a very large city! So while not succeeding in razing that city, he intended to. (If my history is off here, please correct me!)
 

Akka

Moody old mage.
Joined
Nov 14, 2001
Messages
14,621
Location
Facing my computer.
City switching should be ultra rare, and only during a period of relative peacetime (50 turns of world peace, not including barbarians), and also, only before the industrial age. By the industrial age, borders are typically well established, and the idea of some city switching allegiance, free of charge and without a fight is silly.


:confused: ?
Without entering in the rest of the argument (I don't like the "city suddendly switch, kills all your units without a shot, and gain a defendre", but I want to point out something else), I just don't get your reasonning.
You say that culture flip should not happen once we get in the industrial age ?
I would say it's all the other way, culture flip should not happen BEFORE the industrial age.
It's nationalism that gave the people the feeling they were part of a greater nation, and made them much more reluctant to change allegiance. By the middle age, conquests and annexions were common, while the more you advance in time and in the more there is nationalism, the harder it's to change the borders (exactly like you said, "By the industrial age, borders are typically well established").
In the modern world, it's now close to impossible for any country to conquer any land from another as people everywhere has a strong sense of nationalism, and would never be quiet. In this regard, the "raze it or face civilian troubles" is quite accurate (though very poorly implemented and extremely annoying).
 

Dutchman

consul
Joined
Feb 1, 2002
Messages
73
Location
Leiden, the Netherlands
When I'm planning my military campain I always look at the opponents culture score, if it's high then I raze the bordertowns an try to capture his core towns in 1 turn so they can't flip back. If it's low I just capture them all, but you proberly guessed that one!:lol: :lol: :lol:
 

DrJambo

Crash-test dummy
Joined
Dec 27, 2001
Messages
1,028
Location
Athens of the North (Edinburgh)
One tip for culture flipping cities...

If you are in Communism use the foreign residents (not resisting ones) to hurry production, that way you can kill two birds with one stone! :)

If your culture is high and you are in democracy, cities rarely flip against you anyhow... :)
 

Cerryl

Warlord
Joined
Nov 12, 2001
Messages
216
Location
Kansas City, Missouri
Holy cheese and crackers, someone understands that there *IS* really a way to conquer enemy nations, and not resort to whining to Firaxis in an attempt to make the game less challenging and easier for those who cannot figure it out.




Originally posted by Woody
I only have one thing to say, your not playing CivII anymore. Yes there are several new and different concepts in CivIII, whining about them doesnt help, you have to learn how to play the game within the new rules.

Culture flips dont bother me a bit anymore, in any given game I will be on the right end of them more often than not because I keep my culture high and plan my wars carefully.

The main way I keep cities from flipping is to keep my wars short and to the death. If you eliminate the enemy civilization you eliminate the chance of a city flipping back to it. I capture cities and only leave one unit behind and keep pressing the attack. Sometimes the city will flip the next turn but I only loose one unit and the enemy only gets one or two weak defenders that are easily defeated again. Once the enemy is gone then I go back and quell the resistance and start building up the city.
 

Zachriel

Kaiser
Joined
Oct 7, 2001
Messages
2,294
Location
Jovian System
Ancient: Rome lost the Levant when Antony bolted, including garrisons.

Middle Ages: Xanadu lost their empire when it broke into pieces and reverted to local cultures, including garrisons.

Industrial: European colonial empires disintegrated. Garrisons either went native or were disbanded.

Modern: Moscow lost Eastern Europe very recently. Garrisons now in unemployment line.
 
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