Good religion for calambim?

[Monkeyfinger]

If you want to keep it under wraps with sanctify you need to have hyborem spawn on top of you and kill him quick, otherwise hell will spread out of control. If he spawns far away from you, you likely have time before you see hell, but once it gets to you it'll be impossible to really get rid of. If hyborem's surrounded by good/neutral people it won't happen, but give him any evil neighbors or shorelines and hell has a way out to the rest of the world.

 

[xAlephx]

Guilds allows gold rushing.

*blink*

So it does.

Still, the fact that the unlimited available sages are significantly more effective under scholarship / caste than StW / Guilds stands, possibly effective enough to make up for the lower numbers of them available.

The happiness/health points of hell are also well taken. I was doing very nicely in my current game, with hyborem on another continent , until he worldspelled me and I didn't have any vitality mages available.

 

[Angel-Julia]

The only things that do not allow buying with gold are the starting civic, apprenticeship, and slavery - arete, caste system, and guilds all allow buying with gold option. This means that both caste system and guilds are equal on that note.

The bigger issue with StW is it requires ashen veil, and being able to get StW first requires summoning hyborem. This leads to hell terrain expanding, which will lead to resources changing. Animal resources become toads/nightmares - that is -2 , 5 with smokehouse (toads don't count double with smokehouse), rice/corn/wheat turns into snake pillars (-3/6 ), and dye/sugar etc. turn into razorweed/gulgarn (- and ). The only things that don't change are mineral resources, incense, reagents, and (possibly) ivory. This means that the vast majority of your health/happiness will have to come from buildings, and most buildings that give health/happiness do so by giving additional bonuses to resources, which you would no longer have. This can be fixed by sanctify... but that kinda goes against the point of sending the world to hell...

-Colin

hmm, team game with a good civ? keep hell out of one half of the team, and then share around the normal and the hell resources. that way everyone gets rice/corn/wheat/dye/sugar etc and also snake pillars(razorweed/gulgarn etc.

 

[Andvare]

So, let's see what is required to run each, and their respective yield.
I wont go into agristo economy, as that have been covered already. Also, there are few, if any, multiplier, which means that for all practicality =:beaker:, so the two gained from aristocracy is less (or equal with financial) than the 3:beaker: you would gain from a scientist from the extra food. Thus it's not beneficial to this analysis.
I assume that it will be all grassland/river tiles. The river helps FoL more, while the Grassland helps StW more.
The yield will be displayed in base overflow output, meaning that the 1 extra coming from the extra is counted, and the food output is the leftover.
With each "farmer", add 2 , and subtract 1 . CBA to do it myself.
To get a sense of a baseline, all is done with a minimum growth.

"Vanilla"

At city size 3:
StW
Need 2 health.
1 farmer; 2 specialists.
Total of 3 (4 from farmer, 2 from city - 3 from population), 2 (1 from tile/river, one from city), 9 (4 from population/, 1 from city, 4 from specialists) or 5 6:beaker:
+ 1 food with sanitation.

FoL
No need.
2 lumberjacks; 1 specialist.
2, 3, 7 or 5 3(4):beaker: (with scholarship)

At city size 10:
StW
Need 9 health and 5 happy.
2 farmers; 8 specialists.
0, 3, 28 or 12 24:beaker:
With sanitation: +2

FoL
No need
6 lumberjacks; 4 specialists.
0, 7, 32 or 24 12(16):beaker:

(Continued)

 

[Andvare]

(Continued)

At city size 20:
StW
Need 19 health and 15 happy
5 farmers, 15 specialists.
2, 6 , 50 or 22 45:beaker:
Sanitation: only 4 farmers needed, so add another specialist (2 or 3 :beaker: -1)

FoL
Need 1 health.
13 lumberjacks; 7 specialists.
1, 14, 62 or 48:hammers 21(28):beaker:

At city size 30:
StW
Need 29 health and 25 happy
7 farmers, 23(!) specialists.
0, 8 , 78 or 32 69:beaker:
Sanitation: 1 extra specialists, +2 -1

FoL
Need 11 health and 5 happy
20 lumberjacks, 10 specialists.
2, 21 , 112 or 92 30(40):beaker:

At city size 40:
StW
Need 39 health and 35 happy(!)
10 farmers, 30 specialists.
2, 11 , 102 or 42 90:beaker: (120! with the Great Library).
Sanitation:
8 farmers, 32 specialists.
2, 9 , 106 or 42:hammers 96:beaker: (128)

FoL
Can't support this size.


So, what does this all mean?
Well, first of, the StW will grow a lot faster, that's a given. Secondly, the StW is far easier to specialize. Think about a size 20 StW city, with only 4 farmers, the rest is plains/hill/mine. This would produce a size 20 102! city. That is quite a bit, and almost on par with the output of a size 30 FoL city.
A size 30 capital StW city under GodKing and 100% science, running nothing but merchants (all 24 of them) and farmers, have an income of 108 gold and a production of 48 hammers, and that is before any building modifier. Along with a decent holy city, and that city could pay for a rather large empire by itself.
It also means that Divination (life mana) and Alteration (enchantment mana) is quite a bit more important for a StW Calabim.
A StW Calabim also benefits a lot more from the Great Library, as the amount of specialists is huge.
Also, a StW Calabim city could, with enough health, reach a size of 100! from just farms (with sanitation).
And the agristo economy will help a lot in the start of the game, as we all know, but, as already noted, only helps until a certain point.
The FoL cities on the other hand, are less able to specialize, but are all well rounded. You can, and should, still specialize your cities, but can skimp on happy buildingsl.

But in the end, it means that you have to play the map! Just like in every other CivIV game, the map determines how the optimal play will be. Do you start in a resource diverse floodplains map, or a map filled with nothing but forest and rivers?
If you can get enough resources, including life and enchantment mana, go the StW path.



RifE only:

A further analysis shows that the Financial trait is actually more beneficial for a FoL Calabim than for a StW Calabim.
Why? Because the point of StW is population, and thus a SE, where your and :beaker: comes from specialists, not worked tiles.

Also, a FoL Calabim requires quite a lot more techs to really get going, as the lumbermill takes forever to build before iron working, and doesn't provide much until a certain point. However, when all required lumbermill techs and civics (industry helps alot) are taken, it beats StW in every department except when sacrificing pops to empower vamps.

 

[DaveGold]

Given the title of the post I thought mention that Decius can work well with the Council of Esus. It doesn't have as much power under the bonnet as other religions but all the benefits come together at just the right time. A vampiric Gibbon Goetia can be just what you need, just remember not to make any illusionary flesh golems.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Personally I much prefer OO for the Calibim.
You get a set of good undead units but more importantly you get that Tower of Complacency.

Now this wonder might sound useless but if you are evil and hated by the rest of the world it can give you the ability to have at least 1 Mega Feeder city for your vampires even without any Happy resources.

Also, OO is much easier to spread to all civs since many will not accept AV so you can build up a good power base of allies without making the world go to hell.

 

[Andvare]

But, for a mega feeder, you only need population, and as long as you have 20 happy (easily done), the city will grow just as fast under every other religion (faster and bigger under StW).
The only reason to get the tower, is to produce a massive amount of GPP, as you lose the production from population.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

20 Happy is not easily done if you are evil and hated by the rest of the world and you don't have many happy resources.

 

[Andvare]

20 Happy is not easily done if you are evil and hated by the rest of the world and you don't have many happy resources.

True, but if you are hated because you are evil, wouldn't it be easier, and more worthwhile, to turn to good, and trade for those happy goods?

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Or go evil, spawn cheap undead, spam them while leveling your vamps on that one city.
Than when all is ready march into their lands and take the resources.

I prefer that option.


AV is just too much offset by the whole AC penalties. The only time I can make an AV strategy work is when I turn on all AC hindering options and include the Elhonim in the game.