Good Unique Units Discussion

[D0NIMATRIX]

@Everybody who disagreed about the MW on small maps

Sorry, I meant to write large maps, on small maps, MWs are beasts! They can easily get from place to place fast and bring with them the same attack as a swordsman. However, I would rather have gallic swordsmen because they only cost 10 more shields IIRC and have an extra defense.

@Anaxagoras

Once again the size of the maps is EVERYTHING. I play on a 256x204 map of the world, so the AI will have lots of defenders in lots of cities, so it's not advantageous to me to get early cavalry, but on smaller maps it's a great plan to liquidate them fast.

 

[MAS]

@Everybody who disagreed about the MW on small maps

Sorry, I meant to write large maps, on small maps, MWs are beasts! They can easily get from place to place fast and bring with them the same attack as a swordsman.

It depends on many factors, of course, but even on huge maps the MW is Good.
Especially also because the extra movement is more needed on larger maps.
And MW can las through most of the middle ages. 2 MW is better than 1 knight.

However, I would rather have gallic swordsmen because they only cost 10 more shields IIRC and have an extra defense.

If you compare unit to unit, the MW>GS. That extra defense is by far not worth 10 shields!
On top of that, the MW has a much better upgrade path, the unit the GS upgrades to can even be considered a downgrade.

(I would still build GS rather than horseman if I where playing Celts though, because of the extra attack)

 

[PaperBeetle]

If you compare unit to unit, the MW>GS. That extra defense is by far not worth 10 shields!

Hear hear! And in PtW, the gallic even costs 50 shields. For that price, I wouldn't build them. But of course they can be made by upgrading axes, which strategy keeps them in the top tier of UUs imho.
Which reminds me of the discussions regarding mounted warriors and knights... obviously 7 braves are better than 3 knights, but when pursuing a military VC with the Quois, that isn't really the choice we have to make. The choice is first: do I spend my commerce short-rushing braves, or researching to Chivalry? Then, once Chivalry is available (whether we researched it or took it from the AI), the second choice: do I spend my commerce short-rushing braves or upgrading them to knights?
Soooo: 60 shields and 240g buys you 2 knights using upgrades (C3C, no Leonardo) or 4 braves using rushing. The braves still get my vote, but playing PtW, and/or getting Leonardo would tip the balance further towards knights.

 

[D0NIMATRIX]

@MAS

1)On large maps, however, there are better UUs to choose, so generally I use them instead. And off the UU topic, the Iroquois don't exactly have the most useful traits (expansionist, agricultural) so I don't use them much anyway.
2)I myself would rather have 1 knight than 2 MWs, because the MWs will just keep dying, bringing up the HP of the defender, and making it harder and harder to take him out. However, knights have a higher initial chance of taking out a defender, and then the damaged guy will be even easier to take out because of their higher atk.

@PaperBeetle

1)I always speak about Civ3 Complete, but if GWs were 50 shields, then I'd go all MWs.
2)As I said above, I would rather have 3 knights because the 7 MWs just keep dying, while 3 knights won't go so easily.

I love argument when there are good arguments

 

[Aabraxan]

. . . . the Iroquois don't exactly have the most useful traits (expansionist, agricultural) so I don't use them much anyway. . . .
1)I always speak about Civ3 Complete, but if GWs were 50 shields, then I'd go all MWs. . . . .

I realize the above were directed at two different people, but . . . You do know that the Iros are agricultural and commercial in Conquests, right?

 

[D0NIMATRIX]

Are you sure? I'm positive I've seen Iroquois scouts in C3C before, maybe Complete had final revisions or something ?

Or a bug...

 

[gmaharriet]

Are you sure? I'm positive I've seen Iroquois scouts in C3C before, maybe Complete had final revisions or something ?

Or a bug...

Nope, in vanilla and PTW the Iroquois were Religious and Expansionist. They changed to Agricultural and Commercial in C3C.

 

[RickFGS]

Hoplites are also a great UU, until Cavalry comes along you don´t really need anything else in your cities, it´s cheap and can be used in early choke´s like enkidu warriors, when they are obsolete, just upgrade to musk/rifle/inf, a great unit and a good civ for builders.

The num merc gets +10 shield and +1 attack, meaning you can defend and then go kill readlined units, making it somewhat similar to hoplites.

Of course, the impi, enkidu, jag and war chariot are far better.

 

[Aabraxan]

Are you sure? I'm positive I've seen Iroquois scouts in C3C before, maybe Complete had final revisions or something ?

Maybe you're thinking of the Inca? They're expansionist and agricultural in C3C.

 

[D0NIMATRIX]

Could be, but I'm still positive I saw an Iroquois scout before in C3C.

 

[gmaharriet]

Could be, but I'm still positive I saw an Iroquois scout before in C3C.

Maybe you were playing a mod or scenario???

 

[Sashie VII]

Deleted to save myself additional embarassment.

EDIT: Ineffable confusion causing me to post wrong info.

 

[gmaharriet]

The change in C3C was replacing the commercial trait with the agricultural trait. Iroquois are still expansionist and still have scouts.

No they don't. In C3C they're Agricultural and Commercial. Here's a CA2 screenie...left-hand side shows C3C1.22 and right-hand side shows their traits.

Edited to add: The Inca are Agri and Exp.

 

[Sashie VII]

I stand corrected. Been a while since I played with or against Iroq. Apologies

 

[D0NIMATRIX]

Nope, I rarely play scenarios with modified rules, and even when I do they rarely have altered nations. I am positively certainly incontestably sure that it was a normal game.

 

[ecuwins]

Iroquois are Religious & Expansionist in Vanilla. You really must be thinking of Vanilla, or a mod, or you were smoking that day.

 

[D0NIMATRIX]

Very funny. No, I am positive it was on civ3 complete, non-modded, with civ-specific traits, and I was in my right mind.

 

[MAS]

All civ can build explorers though.

Also, if you turn on the "don't use civ specific traits" rule at the game setup screen, then all civ will start with a scout and the ability to build more. But they can't build their UU nor do they have any traits.

 

[gmaharriet]

Also, if you turn on the "don't use civ specific traits" rule at the game setup screen, then all civ will start with a scout and the ability to build more. But they can't build their UU nor do they have any traits.

So in that case the Iroquois could have scouts, but could NOT have any mounted warriors? *shudders*

 

[MAS]

So in that case the Iroquois could have scouts, but could NOT have any mounted warriors? *shudders*

Yes, using that rule, all civ will be equal, except for their name tag and color.