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gosh, I just realize l've spent 25 min of my life on moving my troop to start a war

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by gettingfat, Jan 30, 2017.

  1. TimChuma

    TimChuma Chieftain

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    HACK THE PLANET!


    I thought if you didn't like something in this game you can change it yourself? I already got rid of the opening narration (sorry Sean Bean) but the patch put it back in. Back in days of yore (CIV III) I remember there being a pretty good combined arms mod that streamlined a lot of the management for you or at least made it so you had to use a more realistic military force. There are other games where you have to manage it bullet by bullet but I am not sure what mods are available for this game.

    There are people who do not want to play with mods and I understand that. At least fix the things that are annoying you about the game and that other people have already put in the work to fix.

    Thank you.
     
  2. MyOtherName

    MyOtherName Emperor

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    Did it really take 25 minutes to move the pawn one space forward? Or did that only take one second and the rest of the time was spent deciding whether or not to move the pawn forward?
     
    Victoria and Olleus like this.
  3. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    No hyperbole, civ 5 and 6 each add more than an hour of slogging through city builds and unit moves per game compared to previous titles, to say nothing of the joke of rendering off-screen units and forcing animations. My old videos show footage where this variance is easily measured between 4 and 5, and 6 actually made it worse than 5, which is impressive in a bad way.

    Autocycle is unplayable if you actually play the game quickly. It force-selects and moves units different from the one you selected, so you can give orders to one unit and move another. Unit bottlenecking can mean it seriously takes 15-20 minutes go get through turns repositioning your units to a new front after a war, and only a small fraction of the added turn length (player and between) is due to 1UPT. The game just that poorly optimized and implemented, and yes that means it's boring for people who just want to get to the next choices that matter, because the game blocks you doing so.
     
  4. GhostSalsa

    GhostSalsa Emperor

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    I can't believe anyone has trouble crediting the 25 minute figure. I wasn't long into the game before I had bottlenecks where I spent probably 1 minute between 5 turns trying to figure out how to get a scout through faster than one unit per turn. Being forced to sacrifice movement points leads the player to spend a lot of mental effort searching for invisible mp gains, and mental effort takes time.

    I've already solved this one, units should teleport.
     
  5. ShinigamiKenji

    ShinigamiKenji King

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    I've read it, and I'm going to answer to your proposal here because I don't to bump a long gone thread.
    • Is there any way to cancel it, should anything occur? Would it sit in a tile, waiting until teleportation is finished, and if I need it I just issue a movement and it's back (despite logic dictating that my unit is probably arriving at its destination)?
    • The way you put it, it's still quite gamey. I could settle a city on another landmass and teleport all my units there.
    • If you can only use it within your own tiles, does it address the problem? The issue at hand is mostly army positioning, which usually takes place in neutral or enemy territory.
     
  6. DJ_Tanner

    DJ_Tanner Emperor

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    It is no problem to play with autocycle I can and do so very quickly whenever I want. While having not done so in Civ VI, my friends and I frequently play speed civ playing on 30 second turns. I am able to run an effective (enough) empire and a decent army all in under 30 seconds, and autocycle does not phase me in the slightest. If you are struggling with the animations then simply turn them off, seems simple enough.
     
  7. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    In civ 6 you can't turn animations off so what you describe is completely impossible (only option is "quick" animations that still take time and ignore input buffers). There are also very many inputs to manage lots of cities w/ no efficiency. In practice even if you are a 150 APM starcraft 2 player you will not get through mid-late game civ 6 turns in under 60 seconds, probably not under 90.

    To make matters worse, the game renders animations offscreen (...), and remember you can only make them faster, you can't turn this off.

    If the game worked, you could indeed still do 30 seconds or less, after all you're only giving orders to 10-15 units so you don't even need to do one action/second to keep that pace. But the game doesn't work so you can't.

    Anybody who says the auto cycle in civ 6 is okay is wrong. The game controls doing something different than the player orders is not okay. This isn't magicka where your buddy slapped a "confuse" spell on you.
     
  8. Larsenex

    Larsenex King

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    While I can sympathize with the OP. I am happy they made the change. For some folks who like to move large armies it may feel tedious but it makes for a sense of accomplishment when you can bring to bear your armies.

    Just now I had a war with Gandhi. I finally found his last city. It was up a mountain..surrounded by mountains and very very hard to get to. I spent 65 turns moving 9 units into place, I lost 4 via his damn elephant knights. In that time he built walls AND produced more elephant knights. This protracted war dragged on and on for another 70 turns as I was now mad and had to crush him. Alas I got muskets. Keep in mind the I had to go 40 tiles and keep securing open borders treaties just so I could GET to him. Finally I had some ranged, some artillery and some knights and muskets (with siege-towers thank God!). I finally did the assault on this damn hold out city. I had 8 units surrounding it and crossbows behind those. I lost 4 units 'taking the city' down enough to capture it while his elephants killed mine and my artillery (catapults).

    Over all it took a long time to get my units to him, and the ai used its terrain to its advantage and it was very enjoyable. I felt immense satisfaction seeing his face in defeat!

    Anyway the movement while slowing the game down does not make it any less enjoyable for me.

    Cheers.
     
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  9. Art Morte

    Art Morte Prince

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    I was going to say something about how I don't mind the cycling and animations in Civ6 - the series has never been a game for the impatient - but then I saw the previous poster's avatar.... My goodness, Minsk! Almost getting emotional here thinking about the best video game(s) ever made, Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 !
     
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  10. gettingfat

    gettingfat Emperor

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    I actually spent so many weeks playing BG1 and 2, and later Neverwinter Nights 1 and 2. There were a lot of long walking in these games, and they all had some issues in the auto paths of the characters (characters frequently got trapped), but I never felt impatient. The immersion was just too good and the pace was still ten times faster. And as I mentioned before, I played Civ series since the original version on my 8088 giant PC and never had any problem. My no. 1 hobby before I worked was playing chess. My job is also a job that requires hours of preparation in a single task, so overall I believe I'm quite patient.

    The issues in Civ 6 (and lesser extent Civ 5) are many-fold and I can quickly come up with a few: horrible UI even with autocycling turned off, one can't fully trust the "move to" most of the time, lack of any group function to collectively move your units (limited stacking, multiple ctrl clicking, whatever works is fine with me), constant unit blocking including friendly or neutral units as well as religious units, the lack of promotions tailored for the landscape (e.g. Woodman 2 in Civ 4 can be quite easily got with a barrack) to speed up the movement, the lack of roads even up to mid-game (yes yes, I know I can send trader to the city I plan to invade, but one needs to first complete the foreign trade policy and then build a trader, and the trader only moves one tile per turn so you have to wait as well, also considering that the craftman policy gives 50% reduction in the cost of melee/range units which is usually in higher priority for early rush)....so a player simply needs to spend a lot of time on this so called "logistics" stuff (borrow some posters' term).

    My most favorite sports is one of the most "boring" games --- baseball. There are a lot of strategic moves that cost a lot of time with zero action, but I never mind because they are strategically needed. However, playing Civ 6 is like playing the baseball game in a poorly conditioned field. Workers need to come out every inning and spend some mins each to fill up some holes in the field or redraw the line, etc. I'll get impatient and consider that a waste of my time. Ok, I admit that my patience is conditional.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2017
  11. Art Morte

    Art Morte Prince

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    I agree that moving units in Civ6 isn't as quick as it could be, but I just don't mind it. I haven't felt it's an irritating job. In fact, I've grown quite like the auto-cycling once I got used to it and learnt to anticipate its rhythm.

    When it comes to path finding and other units blocking the way etc., I'm not too fussed about that, either. Unless it's a crucial situation during a war or something, it's usually just fine if a unit takes a turn or two longer to get to their destination due to path finding problems. And if it's a crucial situation where time is of the essence, I just move the unit(s) myself every turn. Am cool with it.

    Ps. Neverwinter Nights were disappointing, imo, after they were hyped as some sort of successors to Baldur's Gate, iirc : (
    Don't think I ever even played NN2 after the first one.
     
  12. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Strategy =/= trivialized decision movement logistic simulator, and I'm not going to buy an argument that handwaves them as interchangeable.

    I'm asking for strategy in my strategy game. That's because it's reasonable to expect the majority of your decisions in a strategy game to have a meaningful impact on the outcome, and that the required inputs to implement them are reasonable.

    If you don't mind that Firaxis is selling alpha levels of control and UI, that's one among many that allows Firaxis to viably ship a product with pathetic alpha levels of controls small development teams trashed 20 years ago. I don't appreciate that gesture, because it's thoroughly unnecessary and sloppy behavior on Firaxis' part. They have always been pretty bad with UI/controls, but at least in civ 4 they tried and it showed, and in civ 5 they didn't try but designed away from it a little to mask the deficiency after vanilla.

    In a game that's part of a series where managing 40 cities in seconds without heaps of popups and hidden information has already been done, this kind of regression is pathetic. Not just bad, pathetic, knowing this game's incentive will lead players to 20+ cities.

    Liking an objectively bad/nonfunctional feature is among the worst kind of consumer behavior that one can do while still being a consumer :(.

    Maybe this series has too many new/"loyal" players that either haven't experienced competent controls in TBS or just blindfold their way out of noticing as they play. This is egregious. It'd be hard to believe what I'm reading without seeing it for myself. It saddens me that Firaxis did this, and frustrates me that they're apparently going to get away with it.

    "I like that the controls are objectively broken" :D. That's a new low!
     
  13. Art Morte

    Art Morte Prince

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    I guess I just find the controls fine.
     
  14. Cronos

    Cronos Chieftain

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    Yes thankyou for what stating what should be the obvious. My idea of strategic depth in Civ is managing your cities, building your empire, managing diplomatic relations and yes planning for war, not babysitting your units as they crawl across the map. It's a shame this game was so rushed to fit into the 25yr anniversary window and yes its double shame that fellow players are so accepting of such regressive controls.
     
  15. Timothy001

    Timothy001 Prince

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    They already have the ability to link support units to military units. Why not the ability to link 2 or 3 military units in adjacent hexes. Give the order to move, and all move in a column. No tedious tripping over each other. Just click on the lead unit, the others will follow.
     
  16. agonistes

    agonistes wants his subs under ice!

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    I think the movement rate is just fine.

    I play marathon games on Giant sized earth map, TSL.

    Cleo, Arabia, and France died fairly quickly, and the Aztecs (whom I usually don't allow in the game) have zorged US. Aside from the fact I annhilated Scythia out of irritation, I don't like Civs dying. So I launched my army.

    So, on the GIANT TSL map, I march from Russia down to Egypt, liberate 6 cities (4 of them in jungle). Then march through the desert and across the sea to France, and DoW on Rome and Spain. Currently fighting this one out. Then I'm going to have to sail over to the New Lands and push the Aztecs back (I knew it was a mistake to let them play).

    Lot of troops, lot of moving. I'm also colonizing in Indonesia. But I think the movement rate is just right. If it were higher, you could flash in and siege any city in 1 turn. Having the slow movement allows the AI to take pot shots at your troops as they are maneuvering. You really want conquering to get easier?

    If you want to speed up travel time, invest in trade routes and pay for open borders.
     
  17. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    While I am oft berated as one of the gentler players and often get things wrong ... But movement cycling worked like a bent bycicle for me.
    I would move a unit partway, go to move it again and the screen would go woosh and move my new unit instead. Unless I made an effort to pause for a second before move, my impatience made a patient of me.
     
  18. MyOtherName

    MyOtherName Emperor

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    You're talking about the movement rate per game turn -- the main topic of the thread is movement rate per real life time.
     
  19. MyOtherName

    MyOtherName Emperor

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    At least you notice. I strongly expect that a large fraction of people subconsciously adjust to the UI, so they don't even realize that they could have more fun if they had a better UI that let them play at their own pace. (or, they realize there's something obstructing their fun, but they misattribute it)

    That said, I don't understand how you can actually be aware that the game is continually forcing these short pauses on you and think it's fine. At least, your tone gives me the impression you think it's fine, rather than something you resignedly put up with.
     
  20. Gub

    Gub Chieftain

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    I don't know about Aztecs, but you ~could say that similar battle at Thermopylae caused mighty Xerxes to rage quit his campaign as well.
     

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