Got a question on MOO1

[Harv]

A race's technology aptitude in a field can be Poor, Average, Good, or Excellent. According to the manual, it affects the final cost to research the project. So the sliders can be adjusted to make up the difference and being Excellent in one field and Poor in another field is just a wash.

However, it says nowhere how it affects how many projects open up in every field.

For example, the Klackon are Excellent at Construction, and Poor at Propulsion. Construction has Industrial Tech 9 and Reduced Waste 80 available. The opening Propulsion projects are Hydrogen Fuel Cells and Deuterium Fuel Cells. What is the probability of getting both of these projects available?

I think you get one project drawn at random, and there will be a certain probability, P, that you get another pick. I have not done enough testing to prove it. By this argument, then, the Klackon will simply have fewer projects to pick from in the Propulsion Technology Tree.

 

[vmxa]

Every tech has a 50/50 chance of been on the discovery list. The Psilons have a 75% chance on every tech, so they will have more techs on their list.

 

[vmxa]

IOW the Poor or Excellent or whatever has no impact on how many or what techs will be in your list. There are a few techs that are essentially guaranteed to be present in everyone list, or so they claim.

These were determined to be required to prevent anyone races from being to disadvantaged. You would not want to find that you had no planetary shields at all in your list as an example.

 

[Harv]

Thanks for the quick answers. A little bit of testing, starting up research in several Klackon games did seem to indiacate what you said above. The information is very useful.

Some of the strategy guides I have read put a lot of weight into whether a race is Poor or Excellent in a certain field in comparing the races. It should only affect your research if you are specializing in the field that your race is good at and in this case it just means that you are unlikely to be specializing in a technology field that your race is terrible at.

Speaking of research, one thing I recently found is you can count the pixels in the lightbulb to know your progress in a project. It appears each pixel represents one eighth of the base cost, rounded down to the nearest percent. So:
1 Pixel = 12% 13%
2 Pixels = 25%
3 Pixels = 37% 38%
4 Pixels = 50%
5 Pixels = 62% 63%
6 Pixels = 75%
7 Pixels = 87% 88%

I have not done enough testing yet to determine how the 15% interest is calculated and if it is rounded or truncated, or if the amount of research invested limits the amount of interest added.

EDIT: Corrected the table above.

 

[vmxa]

Yes you can tell from the light bulb, where you are on the amount accumulated. I do not remember the numbers, but yours sound about right.

The interest is limited to twice the amount you invest in that turn. No rounding is mentioned.
Their example is:

6000bc already in the bank, you gain 900bc interest. If you added 350bc next turn, you could only get 700bc. That is your 350bc, doubled. You would lose out on the rest. So you would ideally add 450bc to get the full 900bc.

 

[Harv]

A while ago we were talking about map sizes and difficulty levels. I think you mentioned the issue with a huge map (108 Stars) is either that you grab so many planets the AI does not stand a chance, or somebody grabs so many stars the rest of them don't stand a chance. You then said a medium galaxy (48 Stars) was a better game.

 

[vmxa]

Moo1 I would for sure grab a lot of planets on a huge map and get too large for the AI. They would get ahead for a short time, but then it would be planets galore.

I actually like to play small maps the most, but mediums are ok. Small maps seem to get you into some fun situations.

The only thing bad about huge in regards to the AI, is that you can run into the 32k stack bug. Next thing I see is someone with a max fleet count and some of the fleets have 32k ships. Actually they are 64k.

That can be a real pain, especially if they are mostly large size and even a stack of huge sizes. I have not seen this in a long time as I am not playing as much Moo1 or 2 this past year as normal for me.

Someone made a fix for this bug. It is a negative fleet count that shows up as 32k, but can contain 64k ships in a stack.

I have defeat the fleet a few times, long, long ago.

 

[civvver]

You guys probably know this, but the tech unlocking is determined by the grid cells in the tech table at the end of the manual. For example to get to Ion Rifle in the third row cell of the weapons table you need to research one of the above row items either Anti missile rockets or nuetron pellet gun or hyper-x missile etc. However there are a couple rows that have only 1 tech, thus you're guaranteed to get those, like terraforming +120. Thought that was interesting.

Also I have read that the techs available is determined at the start of the game, so reloading won't help there.

I didn't know about the cap on interest, that's very interesting. Mathematically as long as you put some research in a field so you don't lose research for having nothing, splitting between two fields 80/20 vs 50/50 grants the same total amount if you ignore that penalty. So I have been normally putting just one click level in every field except one which I'm going for, which gets all the rest. This seems to work pretty well, you never get research decay, but obviously your interest is then capped in those fields you contribute little. What do you think is the best method then for splitting up research? Go for a more even split between two fields?

Also when you finish a tech does the research carry over to the next field? I assumed it does and thus that's why I put a tiny bit in every field, to not decay, but if it doesn't you could just go 100% in a field and not lose anything and make sure to get the full possible interest.

 

[civvver]

Side note to other comments, I like large size maps the best but medium I think is most balanced. I can't play huge anymore, game slows down way too much it's super annoying. Even large crawls near the end but I can live with it. However often times on large you get one runaway AI and a couple idiot races vote for him so you end up in a total war situation. Happened to me two games in a row, I was trying human, doing fine, about to leapfrog everyone in tech and start conquering when alkaris got voted in and then my second game silicoid did. It's pretty dangerous if you don't have 1/3rd population to stop a vote and start your warring, because suddenly everyone hates you and votes for the other big guy. I was like 1 vote short in both games. And I can win these total war games but it takes forever. This was also with 5 opponents. With less you should have room to expand to match whichever AI is running away. With 5 you get boxed in too soon and have to wait for research to catch up with weapons that can take down bases.

 

[Darza]

"So I have been normally putting just one click level in every field except one which I'm going for, which gets all the rest. This seems to work pretty well, you never get research decay, but obviously your interest is then capped in those fields you contribute little. "

Actually its not good idea. All the stuff with this interest rate was supposedly done to hurt tech rushing, but it doesnt work this way, so it was dropped in moo2. Suppose you need to do some tech for 1000 RP, and you can do 200 if you would set all your ships BC to research, and 100 if you just use exceeds. Best way would be to put all possible RP in first turn of research (200 in this example), and thus set the maximum rate on next turn, and then keep it at amount enough to maximize the interest gain. With case of slow accumulation of RP with "one click level" interest simply rise so slowly, so if you would decide to add some large amount of RP lately - basically youll lose all the interest accumulated this way, it would be simply neglectible. Upd - And moreover - suppose you research spending 3 rp - even if youll accumulate some good amount PR this way - youll get interest in 3RP each turn only, wasting the possible surplus to get. So most profitable is to throw as much as you can in first turn, than keep it at max possible interest rate amount next turns (thus effectively doubling your spending), and throwing freed RP's to other techfield and repeat it there (in case you dont need to get a tech ASAP), and after you get some ~10% chances of breakthrough reduce it to lowest possible spending, to keep research going, again unless you need it ASAP.

"Also when you finish a tech does the research carry over to the next field?" - no, why it should? its not production, research is process what include random factor, there is no sence to roll up surpluses, as you cannot predict if youll get it done next turn or not, exept the case when you can spend X2 of declared cost outright. No sence to save surplus in this case still.

 

[civvver]

Yeah I dropped that idea in my next game and went full 100% on fields I needed and split between two sometimes, didn't notice a difference. Just seeing the penalty if you have no research in a field scared me but since you put zero in there's nothing to lose.

 

[Harv]

Necroed this thread for another question: When starting Propulsion Tech, you get either Hydrogen Fuel Cells, Deuterium Fuel Cells, or a choice. Can anybody think of a reason I might choose Hydrogen Fuel Cells over Deuterium Fuel Cells?

Currently, I make this decision on a case by case basis. After exploring some systems, I see if I can get away with the Hydrogen Fuel Cells.

For example, if I am playing the Klackons (on Impossible) the difference in cost is 800 RP. These RP can be counted against the next projects, which will likely be Planetology - Construction - Construction. The 800 RP savings can also be counted towards having the next Colony Ship a little bit sooner.

The obvious consequence is those systems that are 5 Parsecs away have to wait a few more turns. The other consequence is systems 8 Parsecs away cannot be scouted - and they might have Artifacts that an opponent might reach first.

Does anybody have thoughts?

 

[civvver]

You mean range 4 vs range 5? I think it really depends a ton of the planets nearby and how far they are. If range 4 is sufficent to branch out then just do the range 4. If range 5 is needed then do 5. If range > 5 is needed then do 4 to leapfrog 5.

 

[Darza]

I can bring at least 2 (actually its one, just with different wording) - you can just want to have MOAR technologies for the sake of it, or you can want them for the sake of better technology level in propulsion.

 

[Harv]

I was actually thinking about the very early game and the very first technology to research before returning to spamming colony ships. (Always thinking of Huge Galaxy)

The more I think about it, the more I think the long term favors the Deuterium Fuel Cells. Range 5 means you reach that system you are trying to get to. I cannot think of too many situations where you cannot get there with Range 5. Scout ships get a range of 8, and cover more systems that the opponents do not get to scan.

The 800 RP saved will amount to one turn of research before we know it.

Civver, somewhere on this board I posted a gripe about a game where a system I needed was out of reach, at 6 Parsecs and going through the Propulsion Technology Tree, I found nothing with more range. It was in that game that I learned what technology levels are needed to have Large-Sized Colony Ships with Reserve Fuel Tanks. With that and Range 4 Hydrogen Fuel Cells, you can reach a system 7 Parsecs away.

After that, I do not research any more range. Speed is so much better.

Another question: I had a game where my opponents did not research any improved engines for quite some time. Does the AI prefer range over speed for some reason?

 

[Darza]

Ill abstain to comment about AI's research, sorry, not much knowledge about it for me. Just i guess its pretty random stuff.

 

[Harv]

About Research: According to the game manual, after accumulating the requisite number of research points, the probability of a breakthrough is one percent for every two percent the balance is above the requisite number of research points.

P=INT(100*R/2/C-50), where
P is the Probability of a breakthrough, in percent;
R is the accumulated number of Research points;
and C is the Cost of the project in research points.

But the number displayed on the Research screen is:

D=INT(100*R/4/C-25), where D is the Displayed probability of a breakthrough in percent.

As anecdotal information, if the number displayed on the research screen is correct, breakthroughs seem to happen surprisingly often. If I am adding 6% each turn, I should get to 30% or more half the time, but this is not what I am recording. If I am really adding 12% each turn, then I will be getting to 48% (24% on the display) a little less than half (43%) of the time.

Maybe the best way for me to settle this is if I have 30% on the display, save the game and keep reloading and replaying the turn and see how many times out of 10 or 20 it hits. Am I getting closer to 6 or 12?

 

[Darza]

Not a really good idea with reload, as PRNG seed is locked some turns prior, so you wouldnt get the difference by "short reload". Its about moo2 though, but should be the same in moo1 too afaik. Not sure where you get the formulae though.
And i just meant "AI's research routine" here.

 

[Harv]

Agreed on MOO2 - It has a preserved random seed. However, I have not seen evidence of a preserved random seed on MOO1. I am not sure when the idea of a preserved random seed came out - I think I first encountered it in MOO2 and CIV3.

For example, I can reload and get a successful spy roll.

 

[Darza]

Ok, forget about random seed then, my bad. But what is idea of C-50 and C-25 in formulae? Manual have nothing about it or im unable to find it.