GOTM - 01: A New Beginning. Pre-Game Discussion

[CivCinque]

This seems to be a very good start for a first CivIV GOTM. My previous experience with the Mali Civ on Rhye's World Map with all those unhealthy floodplains arround has shown to me, that a strategy of maximizing food at all costs is not always the right strategy. This setting seems to be different, though.

If the first move of the warrior does not reveal anything spectacular, I will probably settle just on the hill with its defense bonus. My first build will be some units for exploration. This will also ensure that Rome will have some turns of undisturbed growth. With city size of three or four, I will build a settler. Probably followed up by another one or a worker.

The worker is not my first priority, though. There are enough good tiles for the first turns and no need for an early activation of the gem luxuries.

In the long run, I would like to leave five forest in the city radius for a good health bonus. The rest will be choped. Of cause the ones next to the river. The silk tiles by the riverside are probably the best choice.

 

[Ambiorix]

Hmm... with the play-time somewhat reduced I definitely want to give this a go.

Furthermore, I am not burdened (yet) with any usefull knowledge or experience on this game, which makes setting up an early strategy much easier.

Let's take a look at what's interesting for Rome : granaries, lighthouse, praetorian (bronze and iron working) and later courthouses.
That means I'll probably start research on agriculture, followed by the wheel and pottery, then writing to get libraries.
I consider that more important than bronze and iron working right away. those praetorians won't be needed in the first couple of turns in the game.
All this means that we blatantly ignore all the religions that will be discovered around us. Oh well, one thing less to worry about (we won't be short on money anyhow, I think).
Edit : after pottery, I might go mysti-medi-priesthood-CoL, to get Confusionism, I mean, Confucianism.

First move will be to let the warrior climb the hill. I'm hoping he'll discover a nice coastline with clams or fish or something. Can't imagine the coast being far away if Rome gets part of its advantages from there (lighthouse).

I don't really see a point in moving the settler. I like the hill for defense (you never know), and I don't see any immediate compensations for the lost turn.

I'm also thinking of building a worker before a settler, to mine the gems first and then gnaw some corn. I might even build a worker right from the start. The alternative (a warrior) seems less useful for a couple of reasons :
- we already have one
- searching good spots for a second city is less urgent than it was in Civ3
- making contact with other civs seems also less important : nothing to trade anyhow.
All in all, the concept of early exploration seems to be devaluated a lot.


Some final notes :
- is the QSC also revived ? I hope so...
- Map created by Aeson, hèh ? Somehow that sounds reassuring. "Reassuring" as in "Welcome aboard this airplane. Your pilot will be Indiana Jones" : you're in for lots of excitement, but you know up front there will be a good ending.

 

[Ribannah]

Chopping a forest is best done, I expect, when you are building a Worker or Settler. That way you have less turns of zero growth.
It sounds like we will not have any health problems soon in this game - happiness will rather be the limiting factor on city growth - so I see no reason not to chop all the forests that we won't be working on.

I don't think I like settling on the starting tile, because I want to work that hill, and get another within my borders at the same time. So I am inclined to settle one tile east.

With only one resource (Corn) providing a food or hammer bonus, starting on a Worker right away (15 instead of 12 turns) sounds like the way to go. That should be long enough to invent Agriculture, too.

I'm not sure what to do next. I will study the advantages of Rome and make a plan.

 

[Glock30]

Ok. I'm eagerly waiting for the file.

 

[White Elk]

Me too
__________

>

 

[Puppeteer]

@Ambiorix: "4otm", I like it! Good point on bronze & iron. It's important to know before settling, but maybe there's some time to grab another couple of techs before needing to know where the metals are. On the other hand I hate making warriors, and it seems silly spend time researching archers when we may have UUs available shortly after.

@everyone: An odd thing I didn't mention about my test game is that nobody would trade Myst and following techs to me. Nobody. I was researching Drama and Currency and such and the two close civs wouldn't trade me Myst long after the wonders were built and the religions were founded. At the time I traded I may have been an opposing state religion; no telling if that had an effect on this specific tree branch, but otherwise relations were okay. I finally started picking the techs up one by one between higher level techs, and the others still wouldn't trade any of the after-Myst tree to me.

A couple of different hypotheses explaining the resistance to trade: Maybe the AIs prefer to trade within a particular branch of the tree: post-Myst tech for post-Myst tech, perhaps. Or maybe the Myst branch is guarded more not just because of the religions and wonders but the powerful religious buildings they allow.

EDIT: Stop holding your breath for the 4otm file release. They said they're waiting until after the first patch, and I don't see a first patch yet. Try playing a practice game as the Romans..it helps. Does anyone know how to quickly reroll a start with the same parameters and name? I had to go through the options for each reroll.

 

[Uty]

I decided to get some practice last night and I started a game with good 'ol Ceaser. I came to the conclussion that it is actually far better to develop techs such as hunting, agriculture, wheel, pottery and develop infastructure early on. You get a much better lead than if you go for one of the early religions. I might go for Christianity or Islam .. who knows.

 

[CivCinque]

@Ambiorix:

I'm also thinking of building a worker before a settler, to mine the gems first and then gnaw some corn. I might even build a worker right from the start. The alternative (a warrior) seems less useful for a couple of reasons :
- we already have one
- searching good spots for a second city is less urgent than it was in Civ3
- making contact with other civs seems also less important : nothing to trade anyhow.
All in all, the concept of early exploration seems to be devaluated a lot.

I'm not really convinced by your argument. You won't need a worker for a couple of turns. At least until you research agriculture. The mine on the gems brings one happiness, which isn't necessary until you have a much bigger city. Therefore I would go for someting else.

One thing I would really like to discuss with you guys out there: Is it recommendable to wait with the production of food consuming units until the city grows to a certain size? I know there are a lot of die-hard statisticians out there. What about looking at the impact of both strategies: building workers and settlers first for quick expansion or building someting else for a better city growth. I know, this probably depends heavily on one's individual strategy, but there should be some general advises.

 

[RoddyVR]

don't really see a point in moving the settler. I like the hill for defense (you never know), and I don't see any immediate compensations for the lost turn.p\

settlers and workers move 2 in civ4, so moving 1 tile does not cost the settler a turn, move 1 and settle on the first turn. (as long as you dont move into a forest or onto a hill)

I thought if the forest grew on the hills it would save me from mining them since a forested hill is the same production as a mined hill.

mine adds 2 hammers to a hill,
forest adds 1 hammer to a hill
if your reason for waiting for not mining hills was what you state, then i'll stick with my mining.

i started a game with same settings as this one last night.
i found that the best thing, by far to do was forget settlers alltogether and just go strait for iron working (well after agriculture) and just take one of hte AI civs's second city.

so assuming that i dont need animal husbandry if there isnt a cows of pigs revealed in the city radius (in the hidden tiles) then my research will go:
agriculture
bronze working
iron working

the two warriors i'll have (build one while growing to size 2) will find the closest civ (not to mention hopefully some bonuses from huts)
the worker i build (after city grows to two) will chop down the forests under the silks to make those tiles give 2 coins a piece and help with production of the praetorians (once i get iron).
realy hoping/gambling that there's iron close to the starting location somewhere.
i've found that the AI places their second cities prety well (ie using quite a few bonuses) so i usualy keep their cities if they're relatively close to my capitol. i have yet to have a game where the AI didnt want peace a few turns after i've taken their second city from them.
as i'm going for the metals techs early, i'm hoping to have to fight mostly wariors or chariots and not so many archers (man i hate those guys)
if there's a bronze in the rome city radius then i'll make my initial attempt at a city capture with an axeman or two probably. those guys are actualy prety strong if they're not fighting archers in cities. then once iron comes in i'll be able to scare the AI into peace with my superrior units

 

[RoddyVR]

One thing I would really like to discuss with you guys out there: Is it recommendable to wait with the production of food consuming units until the city grows to a certain size? I know there are a lot of die-hard statisticians out there. What about looking at the impact of both strategies: building workers and settlers first for quick expansion or building someting else for a better city growth. I know, this probably depends heavily on one's individual strategy, but there should be some general advises.

a couple of my first games i actualy play tested this.
i came to the conclusion that its best to get a worker as soon as possible.
the time you spend "growing" your city on undeveloped corns and rices is a waste compared to making a worker and then growing twice as fast after you put a farm (or pasture) on your bonuses.
at the same time i wouldnt recoment starting a worker on turn 1 because it usualy takes only 8 turns to get to size 2 (there's almost always a 3 food tile) and the second worked tile does two things:
1, it makes the worker be built by about 3 or 4 turns faster (so you only losing 4 or 5 turns over starting worker right away)
2. it (usualy) gives you gold also, so your early techs go faster.

the one time i did worker from turn 1 i found that once the worker was built, he had nothing to build. i still didnt have the wheel to build roads and mining was pointless cause the city needed food more hten hammers. and i hadnt gotten to animal husbundry yet (the city had cows and pigs, but no corn/wheat/rice)

edit: sorry for not putting these two posts into one.

 

[Puppeteer]

mine adds 2 hammers to a hill,
forest adds 1 hammer to a hill
if your reason for waiting for not mining hills was what you state, then i'll stick with my mining.

You sure about that? Everything I've read so far says both add 1 hammer unless there's a resource bonus the mine unlocks. I think this is the way it was in my game. I know I've seen forested hills give 3 hammers, and I know I've seen a mined iron hill give 4 hammers. I may have missed something, though.

However it's a bit of a moot point for me now as I waited half a gamespan and didn't see a forest grow on a hill, so next time I'm mining that hill--ideally shortly before I need to work it. (Assuming I have the food to support working the hill.)

 

[Ambiorix]

@Puppeteer : credit for "4OTM" goes to Ainwood, who raised it in a different thread. Too lazy to search which one, though.

@CivCinque : Ainwood explains at the start of the thread that mined gems result in 5 commerce and 1 hammer. Seems worth it, no ?


Edit : it just struck me : 'Ambiorix' playing the Romans. Caesar would turn over in his grave if he knew.

 

[MeteorPunch]

@Puppeteer : credit for "4OTM" goes to Ainwood, who raised it in a different thread. Too lazy to search which one, though.

I don't think it's actually gonna be called that, at least I hope not.

 

[RoddyVR]

You sure about that? Everything I've read so far says both add 1 hammer unless there's a resource bonus the mine unlocks. I think this is the way it was in my game. I know I've seen forested hills give 3 hammers, and I know I've seen a mined iron hill give 4 hammers. I may have missed something, though.

However it's a bit of a moot point for me now as I waited half a gamespan and didn't see a forest grow on a hill, so next time I'm mining that hill--ideally shortly before I need to work it. (Assuming I have the food to support working the hill.)

yes, you missed something:
there are two types of hills (well 2 good types)
there's hill/plains, which gives: 2 hammers, 3 hammers with forest, 4 hammers with mine
and there's hill/grassland, which gives: 1 food 1 hammer, 1 food 2 hammers with forest, 1 food 3 hammers with mine.
in addition to that, a mined hill will give a coin bonus if next to river, a forest does NOT get a coin for being next to river.

this seems to be a common misconseption on the internet. an article in the single player civ4 articles forum has it wrong, and either it took info from somewhere, or everyone is taking it from there.
i've posted a correction.

people gotta stop reading and start testing (sorry to those who dont have game and cant test)

 

[LeSphinx]

Great job Ainwood. It's very interresting to have all the information you gave with the description of the differents aspect of the game.

ROME. As I remerber Rome was the first GOTM1!!!!!

I'm looking foward to start my C4GOTM!!!!
When the patch will be released ?

LeSphinx

 

[BrandonIT]

Anxiously awaiting the patch and my first GOTM!

 

[Alistic]

I am anxious to try out this GOTM too for the 1st time.

Do we have an estimate on when the patch is due out?

 

[remconius]

Good work Ainwood and Aeson! I'll be trying this game when it becomes available.

Fot the people planning to start one S, there seems to be desert in the fog south of the hills... Would be a shame of a nice starting situation....

 

[thedaian]

you sure that its the place you settle? i thought it was number of floodplains in city radius as StanNP posted 3 posts above yours.

After learning more about the game, and specificly, tile bonuses and penalties, you're right.

-Still learning the game

 

[RoddyVR]

Good work Ainwood and Aeson! I'll be trying this game when it becomes available.

Fot the people planning to start one S, there seems to be desert in the fog south of the hills... Would be a shame of a nice starting situation....

dang, you're right. that does look like a desert. hopefully its an oasis or a floodplain.