GOTM 03 Pre-Game Discussion

[kojimanard]

SGOTM 9 is work in progress. No one's demonstrated that the goal is achievable .... yet

I have been following that diablocal game somewhat, and yes an India Space victory is .... Do the spoiler rules pertain to non-participants in another thread?

Moderator Action: Of course! SGOTM players do get out occasionally, and they don't want to find spoilers for their current game elsewhere on the site. It should work both ways, of course.

 

[Memphus]

@Shillen

That is why I have plan BLUE for my warriors move(to find huts which won't be random), and the more I look at my map

Here

I think that BLUE is the best chance of finding a hut, since so far 99% of people have said they would move thier warrior SW "just to make sure"

And from here the tendancy for the human mind after moving SW with the warrior would be to continue in a similar direction(Westish). If the huts are not "random" as you suspect then going the opposite way of what everyone typically would do should be the best bet for finding at least one. As only a lunatic(me in this case) would go NE with thier warrior on move 1 (Either way I'll let you know in spoiler 1)

I still can't decide if I want to go with plan BLUE or RED with my settler though

 

[fbouthil]

@Shillen
I still can't decide if I want to go with plan BLUE or RED with my settler though

If there is a good resource 4 tiles W of the starting position of the settler and you settle on the hill plain without forest, you are going to hate yourself! Of course, there is a solution for that: move your warrior SW! lol!

 

[Shillen]

I will be moving my settler 2 southwest to the plains hill on the river. One forest chop isn't worth losing 2 health over. I would have probably settled in place if not for DaveMcW's observation of a flood plain down there.

Also I'll probably stray from my normal start and build a warrior or two before my first worker. Since Toku doesn't start with mining or agriculture there isn't much reason to build a worker first.

 

[Xevious]

I have been following that diablocal game somewhat, and yes an India Space victory is .... Do the spoiler rules pertain to non-participants in another thread?

ABSOLUTELY! While I am playing the CIV4 GOTMs, I am also playing Civ3 SGOTM9 (Team Wacken). I would not want to have to avoid all other threads on this site to avoid possible spoilers to our game.

 

[Mauer]

Well, I haven't played a GOTM in about a year. That obviously means I haven't played a Civ4 GOTM. I've only completed one game of it so far and only got half way in 2 others before it crashed. With my RAM and video card upgraded I might give this one a go. As I don't have much experience, especially on this level, we'll see how that works out

 

[kojimanard]

ABSOLUTELY! While I am playing the CIV4 GOTMs, I am also playing Civ3 SGOTM9 (Team Wacken). I would not want to have to avoid all other threads on this site to avoid possible spoilers to our game.

I thought so. Wacken is great team; I enjoy following your team's posts.

 

[ungy]

I will be moving my settler 2 southwest to the plains hill on the river. One forest chop isn't worth losing 2 health over. I would have probably settled in place if not for DaveMcW's observation of a flood plain down there.

Also I'll probably stray from my normal start and build a warrior or two before my first worker. Since Toku doesn't start with mining or agriculture there isn't much reason to build a worker first.

I agree with all the above except the issue of settling in place w/o floodplains. This doesn't seem a particularly good start, especially as it could be a while to Animal Husbandry. This is a bit of a general question but people seem much more inclined to settle in place than I am--especially at epic. Am I missing something as it seems to me the chance of putting the critical first city in a better place is worth a couple of turns?

 

[Shillen]

I agree with all the above except the issue of settling in place w/o floodplains. This doesn't seem a particularly good start, especially as it could be a while to Animal Husbandry. This is a bit of a general question but people seem much more inclined to settle in place than I am--especially at epic. Am I missing something as it seems to me the chance of putting the critical first city in a better place is worth a couple of turns?

If there were no flood plains in the site to the southwest then you could be looking at no food bonus at all. That will kill your expansion rate as building settlers/workers will take far too long. It's not worth the risk moving away from a food bonus when you don't know there's any food bonuses in the direction you're heading to. The starting location isn't that bad. The only real drawback is having to research animal husbandry. But you can turn that into a bonus by grabbing nearby horses. Once you have horses then you don't need archery. Of course copper is better than horses but you don't always have copper. In fact I've played 3 test games up to 1ad or so and only 1 of them had copper anywhere near my starting location.

Oh yeah and for my 3 starts the average dates on:
Stonehenge - 1200BC
Oracle - 700BC
Pyramids - 450BC

I used a different strategy in each game. My best strategy was the 2 warriors first (I had a plains hill start so that makes this strategy even better since you can build the warriors fast) then worker at size 2. Meanwhile I researched bronze working right away and chopped out the first settler. The early warriors made dealing with barbs much easier than my other two games. I got the entire map around my starting location revealed and set my extra warriors up in fog-busting positions so I probably only had to deal with half as many barbarians as I did in the other two games. I didn't have any copper nearby but I still didn't research archery. I went for iron working and there was iron by my capital but by that point barbs weren't even an issue anymore. I expanded rapidly (7 cities at 100BC), grabbing a nice chunk of land for myself, 4 happy resources, 5 health resources, horses and iron but no copper. After researching alphabet I'm behind a couple techs but have no doubt that I'll take the tech lead soon enough.

My second game I used an early warmonger strategy. That was the game I did have copper. I took out my nearest neighbor easy enough but my economy wasn't so great in that one due to distant cities and too many units for how small my cities were. Barbarians weren't a problem since I had lots of axemen.

My first game was my best game techwise (tech lead at alphabet) but I had a lot of trouble with barbarians since I didn't build enough warriors to bust fog and I didn't settle cities quickly enough. I also tried to build the pyramids since I had stone but missed them by one turn. I didn't do any chopping, figuring I could get them without chopping, but that was obviously a mistake. I stopped this game at 300BC with only 4 cities and expansion is already blocked off in one direction.

So like I said my warriors first/rapid expansion strategy worked out best. I don't think I'll be going for any wonders or religions. I can capture a religion since I will be going for a military victory. I don't think I'll go to war before catapults but we'll see.

 

[DaveMcW]

If your goal is rapid expansion, it's good to head straight for bronze and build a couple warriors before the worker.

But if you are focusing on science, I think it's better to build a worker right away and grab Pottery before Mining/Bronze. Every floodplain should have a cottage ASAP.

 

[ungy]

Shillen--thanks for sharing the results and strategies for your games. As far as the first move goes, I wasn't suggesting settling in a worse spot--just that the risk of losing 2 (or even 3 or 4) turns seemed small to me compared with what looked like a mediocre start.

 

[Shillen]

If your goal is rapid expansion, it's good to head straight for bronze and build a couple warriors before the worker.

But if you are focusing on science, I think it's better to build a worker right away and grab Pottery before Mining/Bronze. Every floodplain should have a cottage ASAP.

The only problem with early cottages is they don't give you food or hammers so you will build workers/settlers very slowly if you're working cottages. You'd end up having to do a lot of chopping to get them out. I will oftimes irrigate floodplains early in the game to get my empire set up as quickly as possible, then I can switch some of that irrigation over to cottages. I think even if you want a fast tech pace you're best off grabbing as many cities as possible first before going into cottage spam/research mode. I guess it depends on how many trees are nearby. If there's a ton of trees then you might as well cottage spam and chop like crazy.

My dilemma is the early warmongering. While my economy was in worse shape after taking out my nearest neighbor, it's hard to value the fact that I'll have 1 less civ to take out later on in the game.

edit: My next game I'll try a cottage spam approach to test it out.

 

[Elandra]

If your goal is rapid expansion, it's good to head straight for bronze and build a couple warriors before the worker.

But if you are focusing on science, I think it's better to build a worker right away and grab Pottery before Mining/Bronze. Every floodplain should have a cottage ASAP.

Could you elaborate a bit on the rapid expansion scentence? At first I couldn't see the direct connection, although perhaps the warriors help scouting and the bronze helps to chop settlers. Or is there something more strategic that I am missing? (newbie, obviously... )

 

[DaveMcW]

My first sentence was agreeing with Shillen's post above it. See that post for more details.

 

[Sparts]

But if you are focusing on science, I think it's better to build a worker right away and grab Pottery before Mining/Bronze. Every floodplain should have a cottage ASAP.

On the other hand, like Shillen says, that will mean that chopping starts later. Provided there are enough forests, which it looks like, chopping a second worker and then a settler and then cottaging those floodplains will mean you'll catch up relatively quickly.

Regardles, contrary to my nature I'll go for agressive expansion early and consolidate when researching for Civil Service and Machinery, for a next (and final?) push. Then I'll try my luck with this whole 'milking' thing you guys are so hot about. (no cultural expansion is the key right?)

As for the huts, I didn't find any huts on my first GOTM, GOTM2, so I figured most will be removed, which I don't think is such a problem. You can, to some extend, influence whether a civilization declares war on you 500 BC, but not what the outcome of a hut is. Though I did notice with civ3 that when I first ran around the house naked and clicked the mouse with my left middle toe, the chance of getting a settler was much bigger.

 

[Boppy]

Hi,

Although new to the Civ scene I am quite keen that the GOTM difficulty has increased again.

Before GOTM2 I was struggling at around Noble level. Now thanks to GOTM2 and reading about people's various tactics and strategies I find Prince fine. I find the GOTM as well as being great fun is ideal for improving your Civ skills.

Now onto GOTM3 I realise I may have been making mistake for some time with what people have been saying about barbs. I generally build a Warrior first whilst I send my original Warrior off to scout the land. Once my second Warrior is built I always fortify it in case of attack.

It would seem that this is unneccessary and I'd be better off sending my second Warrior off to scout/map too? I guess the trick is to know when to start fortifying.

I've just played a practise game with the GOTM3 settings. I was a bit shocked at just how early C.O.L was discovered in the game - at 860BC. I was trying to beeline to that Tech but I got beat anyway. Oh well - I guess the GOTM may turn out differently or maybe I'll change my strategy and try something different.

Looking forward to the 1st!

Boppy

 

[BCLG100]

I like Japan so i might make a brave attempt to actually finish this game so i can submit it for this GOTM

 

[Velvet-Glove]

I'm a newbie to Monarch so I tried two test game starts with these GoTM03 settings yesterday.

First game: found myself on the east side of the map and soon hemmed in by other civs. Plenty of copper around (expanded to get 3), and an elephant on the NE boundary but no horses or iron which was a major disadvantage. I stopped playing this game at 660AD - glad to still be alive but not in a strong position. I expect I would have been attacked soon if I had continued.

Second game: located in the north this time and slightly better able to expand. Again, copper was not a problem and I eventually snagged an iron resource (yay!) but no horses. Again I had elephants and some good food resources but precious little in the way of happiness resources. Game stopped in 1030AD, having beaten off an initial assault from Washington. When he attacked my capital (with horsemen, cats and crossbows brought all the way up from the far south) I was a few turns away from getting the last tech needed for Samurai (they were a looooong time coming!) but eventually chop rushed a few just in time to see him off. A close shave!

My impressions, as a non-aggressive Noble level player:

1. Barbs are manageable if you are prepared: defend with archers then axemen ASAP and keep the fog of war back by posting units around your boundaries.

2. Religion is impossible to get. Adopting someone else's will most likely be required - a temple is essential if you have few luxury resources.

3. Tech trading is definitely the way to go, it's impossible to keep up otherwise. Civil Service & Machinery (for Samurai) take a LONG time to arrive but the Samurai are great units when you do get them. The research path needs to be thought through very carefully as the AI can do it so much faster on this level. Getting BW (for those all important axemen) and later Alphabet (for tech trading) are two key ones to aim for. Resources will dictate some of these early tech decisions - choose wisely!

4. It's very hard to beat the AI to wonders as well. Best not to bother if you don't have an accelerator like stone or marble (which I didn't).

5. You're unlikely to build more than 5 or 6 cities on this type of map before you're hemmed in so make the most of position.

6. You're forced into chopping just to keep your head above water.

These games are very grim for someone like me and I have to say I didn't particularly enjoy these initial trial games. It's not much fun when the odds are so unfairly stacked against you. I've proved to myself that I can stay alive but don't feel at all optimistic about doing much more than that, let alone get myself into a winning position. It's a struggle just to have enough defensive units, building a viable offensive force seems to be a very difficult goal, even with Tokugawa. Having said that, I do still think I have learned a few valuable lessons from these games so it's not all negative.

 

[Shillen]

2. Religion is impossible to get. Adopting someone else's will most likely be required - a temple is essential if you have few luxury resources.

Through self-research it might be impossible. The way people will found them is either via the oracle or by building some other wonder and getting the generated great person to found a religion for them.

3. Tech trading is definitely the way to go, it's impossible to keep up otherwise. Civil Service & Machinery (for Samurai) take a LONG time to arrive but the Samurai are great units when you do get them. The research path needs to be thought through very carefully as the AI can do it so much faster on this level. Getting BW (for those all important axemen) and later Alphabet (for tech trading) are two key ones to aim for. Resources will dictate some of these early tech decisions - choose wisely!

Tech trading is essential. That is how you take the tech lead by getting techs that the AI's don't know yet and trading them for multiple other techs and meanwhile withholding them from any civ that has nothing to give you. That's why I tend to be behind in techs by alphabet (since I hadn't traded any techs yet) but am not concerned about taking the tech lead from that point forward. So good point. Just like in civ3 if you don't make the most of your tech trades you will fall hopelessly behind in techs.

4. It's very hard to beat the AI to wonders as well. Best not to bother if you don't have an accelerator like stone or marble (which I didn't).

The AI's don't get any bonus to building wonders. The bonus they get is 1) researching the required tech faster and 2) their faster expansion makes it more likely for them to have stone or marble. But the player's advantage is in forest chopping. If a player really wants to get stonehenge, the oracle, or pyramids then they can do so with enough forest chopping. It's of course a lot easier with stone or marble.

5. You're unlikely to build more than 5 or 6 cities on this type of map before you're hemmed in so make the most of position.

Another good point. Like I said earlier an outside in approach is best on this map. Try to block your neighbor's expansion in your direction before worrying about the cities right next to your capital.

6. You're forced into chopping just to keep your head above water.

If you want a strong start then this is the advantage a player can leverage over the AI. I won't say it's required, though. I was recently in an SG (LOTR19, which happened to be an inner sea standard map, epic speed) where we beat immortal difficulty and there were still quite a lot of forests left at the end of the game with lumbermills on them. So if chopping every tree isn't required on immortal it certainly isn't on monarch. But you definitely should do some chopping, if you don't do a chop every tree approach.

These games are very grim for someone like me and I have to say I didn't particularly enjoy these initial trial games. It's not much fun when the odds are so unfairly stacked against you. I've proved to myself that I can stay alive but don't feel at all optimistic about doing much more than that, let alone get myself into a winning position. It's a struggle just to have enough defensive units, building a viable offensive force seems to be a very difficult goal, even with Tokugawa. Having said that, I do still think I have learned a few valuable lessons from these games so it's not all negative.

Generally when it's a great struggle to win it's not as enjoyable. But I have no doubt as you learn the game more and when you can get to the point that you beat monarch easily then you will not think that it's not fun because the AI's start with an advantage. In civ3 I could beat deity most of the time but I didn't enjoy playing on deity because it was such a struggle and I felt like I was forced into doing things I didn't like in order to win. Meanwhile on emperor I could play the way I wanted and still win every time. But I think that was just me. People who were better at civ3 enjoyed deity because it wasn't as much of a struggle for them. I have no doubt that eventually you'll be skilled enough at civ4 that you'll find monarch to be easy and you'll change your outlook on how fun it is.

 

[Velvet-Glove]

Thanks for your comments Shillen.

Re. founding religions: I presume by this you mean using the Great Person to grant you (or hurry along) the next tech that will found a religion. (?) That's worth bearing in mind, thanks. I didn't get the required wonders and no sign of a Prophet in either of my trial games so this was not an option for me. When there are other, more pressing, things to build then accepting someone else's religion isn't so bad, really... it can give you the bonus of being the same faith as one or more of your neighbours and thus be on slightly 'friendlier' terms with them (which might give you a few more turns before they turn on you, I suppose, lol!).

As for ever finding Monarch easy and therefore fun... we'll see! I won't pretend I've ever been good at Civ3, let alone Civ4, but I do enjoy the modest level I am at. This is the first time I have joined a gaming community like this - I'm hoping that by attempting the GoTMs and generally reading about people's tactics that these ideas will rub off and help me raise the level of my gameplay. I'm a slow learner so time will tell!