GOTM 03 Pre-Game Discussion

[Memphus]

The square SW, SW, S of the settler looks like a flood plain.

Oops.. I figured that too by my map with River + Plains, and forgot to call it floodplains

 

[ffifield]

I've never won a game on prince (or even come close) so I'll consider it a victory if I make it past 1AD.

 

[joelzhl]

Looks like the mighty 4otm god put us in the northern hemisphere again this time. Just from the screen shot, I think the best starting move would be to move the warrior SW and settler SW->SW/W. The plain forest hill looks really tempting with what look like 1(at least)-2 flood plains, 2 hills, jungle and most importantly a city square plain hill.

With no financial trait, I'll definitely try to grab the Pyramid and go for the specialist route. Barbarians might be a problem, although not as much as lake maps. I think an early domination win will be possible with Japan as their UU is probably the best city attacking unit in the game.

 

[shadow2k]

Are you sure about this? Anyway, on Monarch (with raging barbs set at least...), the first barbs will appear around 2200 BC and they will be 50/50 archers/warriors. I have never seen a barbarian unit wait outside my borders but maybe it does happen on lower difficulty levels. On Monarch though, I think you will see them coming for your cities without hesitation.

I'm positive. I play Emperor, level doesn't affect that they won't cross borders very early, but possibly how early they will do it. One thing that will affect it is how you fog bust and expand your borders, because if barbs don't show up near cities until later, obvioiusly by that time they'll go into your borders.

Try it out with worldbuilder. Place an undefended city next to a barb at 2200BC or whatever, and see whether he attacks the city, or moves out of the borders. In my experience, that early, they'll move out of the borders. I've even seen them fortify there and wait 15 turns or so, then move back in.

 

[Memphus]

Maybe someone could help me here:

All the victory conditions ar enabled, which is nice since everyone likes to go their own way.

However I have looked back at past GOTM's from civ 3 and COTM and noticed that all the victory conditions are always enabled.
Will there ever be a GOTM which would have only one or two victory conditions enabled?
I.E. set us up for a Domination or Conquest win, but then disallow those victory condition?


Now When I was lurking in the SGOTM thier victory conditions are very 'unique'
I.E. to be the winner you must get an AI to win a certain way.

Will this ever happen for GOTM?

 

[crunch]

Just played a game with these settings. Started with pottery (there were some floodplains nearby), then mining, bronze working. Copper appeared nearby (great!)

Started with a worker, then barracks. Before finishing first military unit (starting warrior died exploring), barb archers appeared (around 2000 BC). Fortunately, they did not enter my undefended city. Produced some warriors, then planned to build/chop settler - but barbs already founded a city near my copper. Ugh. Sent out a warrior to investigate - three archers there.

At this point I abandoned the game I fear I won't do much better in the GOTM either. Oh well.

I guess I could try getting archers and claim that city (maybe) but I'll probably be in the ADs already. Or rather, dead. Something sucks.

 

[ainwood]

A few points:

1. There are no target victory conditions mandated.
2. I will discuss with the HOF staff about the use of the HOF mod.
3. Barbarian settings are just the default - it is not a raging barbs or a no barbs game.
4. I am experimenting with different class modifiers - its not as easy to implement as it was in Civ3.
5. Re the difficulty - yes it is going up, but I try to design maps that are fair. We have to try to cater for all in these games, and it can be very difficult to get the balance right.

 

[AlanH]

I.E. to be the winner you must get an AI to win a certain way.

Will this ever happen for GOTM?

I suggest we see if it ever happens this way in SGOTM first

 

[pnp_dredd]

I had a bit better luck that Crunch in my test game.

I'm aiming at getting alphabet ASAP and trading from there, trying to get Code of Laws first and found Confucianism (I'm not a huge religion nut, but C.O.L is also only 1 tech away from Samurai)

After a few false starts, I found that it was necessary to research Hunting -> Archery -> Pottery -> Writing -> Alphabet. You need archers early on, and pottery allows your worker to at least build cottages.

If you want pastures, then throw in Animal Husbandry before writing. This is probably a good idea. In a very few cases it may be worth going for Agriculture - it just depends if you have enough for your workers to do.

You definately want some un-forested grassland to place cottages on, possibly using ones with river access, although you may want to farm these later.

Something else regarding city placement - if your capital is on a river leading to the sea, you will be able to trade resources from VERY early on, with all the other civs with their capitals on a river leading to the sea. So if you can hook up 2 of anything (or if you want to trade a health resource) then you will be able to trade those. Early on this is mainly useful for building relationships, but an extra happiness resource would really help if you could find one.

I build warrior (for exploration), barracks, archer, worker, archers/settlers. Early on happiness means that the city maxes out at 5. Not much point building an early worker when all he can do is build roads. Your first two warriors WILL be killed by barbs eventually, but you should be able to contact the majority of the other civs first. I tried a few starts, and got 3-5 huts each time, which is certainly useful (especially when you get sailing!) Possibly send out an archer to explore further, but it's obviously better if they are escorting settlers.

I got to Alphabet before anyone else had Writing. I then traded for everything up to Preisthood/Monotheism using Writing. I had to trade Alphabet for Ironworking, but with more patience you can probably do better.

Frederick then beat me to C.O.L by 4 turns, so I missed out on founding Confucianism. Possibly hold Writing back for a few turns from the civs that are obviously good researchers. Also remember that as soon as you trade Alphabet to one civ, you are likely to lose your tech lead forever.

I gave up after this, but I would have had 4-5 cities when I completed Civil Service, and by placing these in high-production areas with barracks, you could have a significant Maceman army in the early A.D's. Might want to try for catapults too, asthe AI gets city defence bonuses fairly early.

 

[Sparts]

After a few false starts, I found that it was necessary to research Hunting -> Archery -> Pottery -> Writing -> Alphabet. You need archers early on, and pottery allows your worker to at least build cottages.

A few wellplaced warriors should be enough to stop those barbarians. Researching archery is for chickens

Something else regarding city placement - if your capital is on a river leading to the sea, you will be able to trade resources from VERY early on, with all the other civs with their capitals on a river leading to the sea. So if you can hook up 2 of anything (or if you want to trade a health resource) then you will be able to trade those. Early on this is mainly useful for building relationships, but an extra happiness resource would really help if you could find one.

Is this so? I always thought you needed sailing and a coastal city for this. I'm very not sure though. You state below that you got sailing, did you have a coastal city too?

Your first two warriors WILL be killed by barbs eventually, but you should be able to contact the majority of the other civs first.

Not if you're careful with them. To only use those warriors for exploration, is pretty meagre compared with the devastating effect one warrior in foreign territory will have for that civilization's future (especially on a crowded map).

I tried a few starts, and got 3-5 huts each time, which is certainly useful (especially when you get sailing!)

I take it huts in our vicinity will be mostly removed in the GoTM. It would be a bit unfair if one player gets three maps of a beautiful inland sea, while another gets a scout (more huts) and a couple of technologies.

 

[pnp_dredd]

Hmm, actually I did have a coastal city, and got Sailing from a hut. Most people will have a coastal city early on this map, and possibly the AI will have researched Sailing once you get to alphabet - so it's still useful to have your capital on a river rather than next to a lake.

Regarding warriors, in 3 test games I never had a warrior circumnavigate the inland sea before getting killed. Eventually you need to cross open flatlands, and then it's just luck. If you stick to hills/forest, it'll take too long to meet everyone.

I think that an early war, using a single warrior, against someone with easily twice your production, and who starts with plenty of defence, on a crowded map, isn't a great idea. Although, if I see an un-escorted worker...

 

[ainwood]

I'm aiming at getting alphabet ASAP and trading from there, trying to get Code of Laws first and found Confucianism (I'm not a huge religion nut, but C.O.L is also only 1 tech away from Samurai)

Remember: you need machinery as well as Civil Service.

 

[DarthBeer]

Well now is as good a time as any to move up to Monarch level since I've gotten fairly comfortable on Prince. My last game I played as the Japanese, on prince, and got a domination victory on a balanced map, so I'm confident I can squeak out a win here.
The Japanese are built for warmongering, so I dont see any reason to try for anything but a domination or conquest win.

 

[Tauro]

Probably I'll build the capital on the spot. If some important food resource is on SW I'll build my second city there.
I'll try to build Pyramids and Stonhenge before 900 BC if possible. Without stone I'll skip pyramids, betting on library and early academy.

with stone:
1 aggri --> HU --> mining --> BW --> myst --> masonry
and depending from copper and barbarians
1a hunting --> archery --> writing --> alphabet
1b writing --> alphabet --> math --> currency

no stone
2 aggri --> HU --> mining --> BW --> writing
no copper
2a hunting --> archery
copper
2b alphabet --> math --> currency

I'll avoid early war before alphabet in any case, even if I'll find any spiritual/expansionist/creative six squares from my capital....
This would be a very challenging game :>

For those that think that this is the wrong way to let gow a community: I hope that in the next GOTM we will see also emperor level, so I will finally learn how to beat it on standard map from your posts.

About the archers bonus I don't think that this lead to the knowledge of archery even if seems a no sense.

 

[Shillen]

I take it huts in our vicinity will be mostly removed in the GoTM. It would be a bit unfair if one player gets three maps of a beautiful inland sea, while another gets a scout (more huts) and a couple of technologies.

I hope this is not the case. There are so many other random factors in the game that I don't see the point in trying to remove the randomness of huts. I mean the barbarians can be pretty random too, so why not remove them also? Huts and barbs are a part of the game and should remain a part of the game for GOTM.

 

[Memphus]

I suggest we see if it ever happens this way in SGOTM first

Civ 3 SGOTM 9

I am not reading this correctly?

From my understanding the teams play as the Vikings, are at permanent war with India, but the goal of the game is to get India(AI) to win by space race.

Which in my opinion is a really interesting way to play a game of civ. You win by loosing the right way

 

[AlanH]

SGOTM 9 is work in progress. No one's demonstrated that the goal is achievable .... yet

 

[Memphus]

SGOTM 9 is work in progress. No one's demonstrated that the goal is achievable .... yet

Ok good then I am not going crazy/become illiterate

Even though I am not a part of that Game it is very interesting, can't wait until Civ4 gets one going. I Am following only one team unbeknown the them but It looks like alot of fun

As for on topic with this thread

I hope this is not the case. There are so many other random factors in the game that I don't see the point in trying to remove the randomness of huts. I mean the barbarians can be pretty random too, so why not remove them also? Huts and barbs are a part of the game and should remain a part of the game for GOTM.

Now I have no idea how hard this would be... or if It would be good or not, but if each hut had it's randomness taken away from it but not taking away the hut itself.
I.E. each hut was programmed so that when poped you got object X every single time, whether you or the AI poped it. But then again this could be hard to do since If I research tech X before popping the hut which contaiend that tech...
In any case this would level the playing field as I am sure me popping hostile villagers versus Someone else poping Bronze Working would have a huge impact on the overall game.

As far barbarians it would be cool if they could be turned of, but in year Z the spawned 5 villages on the map and came from those and not random FOW places. This again would level the playing field for everyone.

On the other hand if too many of the random elements are taken away then so is part of the fun, and everyone could have the same score

 

[kojimanard]

This game may be easier than some of you think. I'm saying this because, by chance, I just played Tokugawa at Monarch, on a non-custom, panagea, standard-size game. I won by domination the early 1900's, and I'm not that great; won both GOTM 1 and 2, but not with any great score. In that game, I built the Oracle and Pyramids (don't remember if I had stone or marble; I have the save so I could look it up). I didn't have any happiness problems, of course with rep, nor any $ problems and pretty much won easily. (At the end, with the Kremlin, state property and universal suffrage, it's like "shooting fish in a barrel".) But, that may have been a particularly good map, I don't know.

 

[Shillen]

In any case this would level the playing field as I am sure me popping hostile villagers versus Someone else poping Bronze Working would have a huge impact on the overall game.

There are plenty of other random factors that can have just as big of an impact on the game. AI's declaring war on you in 500BC or something would be one such example. My point is the game has randomness designed into it because a bit of randomness makes it more fun. I see no reason to remove it.

On the other hand if too many of the random elements are taken away then so is part of the fun, and everyone could have the same score

That's exactly my point. You can't eliminate all the randomness from the game, and even if you could, that takes almost all the fun out of it. The randomness is programmed into the game because complete predictability is not fun.