GOTM 07 Pre-Game Discussion

[culdeus]

I haven't done alot of searching this site for settler chop strategy post 1.61. I'm thinking after tinkering with alot of test games to 1AD that a settler chop is just about mandatory. The AI agressively spreads on this map to the non-jungled areas and seems to "know" where the metal is. Whether we have a clue about that via the blue circles is debatable.

Some of my best starts to 1AD have gone well when I:

expanded while building warriors till all flood plains were worked.

Then worker -> chop settler -> chop worker

Then potentially build the oracle in a better site for production and maybe get the pyramids if no bronze/iron is nearby and settle for a non agressive win.

This is probably no longer the right thing to do on islands/pelego/huge maps, but this map even with low sea level seems to have a pretty small landmass overall.

gllllllllllllllllll

 

[Jove]

I hear you, Xerol. Although for Diplo, I don't think the Parthenon is really that important. I'll already want the Pyramids, the Oracle, and the Great Library. Another wonder is just too much. Great people can be had fast enough at +100% for a diplo win.
But really, I just want Buddhism to work. I still have more than a day to chicken out I guess.
EDIT: bah. I'll try a test start with Confucianism as the first religion.

 

[Grogs]

It's funny everyone says the AI never goes for poly first. I started a test game, set research for poly, and got beaten by 2 turns. I then switched over to meditation and got it first. In the other two test games I got poly no problem though.

Also, I don't the the parthenon is all that great for a philosophical civ. If you've got a GP city with 6 specialists, you're getting 36 GPP/turn. With National Epic, it's 52. Parthenon only raises it to 61, which isn't that big of an effect percentage-wise.

 

[DaviddesJ]

Also, I don't the the parthenon is all that great for a philosophical civ. If you've got a GP city with 6 specialists, you're getting 36 GPP/turn. With National Epic, it's 52. Parthenon only raises it to 61, which isn't that big of an effect percentage-wise.

Your math doesn't make sense to me.

With National Epic, it's (6*3+1)*3.00 = 57, I think. How can you get 52? That's not even a multiple of 3.

With National Epic plus Parthenon, it's (6*3+1+2)*3.50 = 73. That's a 28% increase, pretty substantial.

[Edit: corrected GPP figure for the National Epic. I think I copied the Culture bonus for it, instead.]

 

[Grogs]

Your math doesn't make sense to me.

With National Epic, it's (6*3+4)*3.00 = 66, I think. How can you get 52? That's not even a multiple of 3.

With National Epic plus Parthenon, it's (6*3+4+2)*3.50 = 84.

LOL, you're right. I'll claim it's because I'm a physicist and we never do math in our heads. It should have been 3*6*3 = 54. Of course I totally ignored the GPP from the National Epic and the parthenon themselves. Where are you getting the +4 for NE (I assume that's what it is) from though? I'm pretty sure NE is only worth 1 GPP. My math (checked twice this time) would be (6*3+1)*3.0 = 57 with the NE alone and (6*3+1+2)*3.5 = 73.5 -> 73 if the parthenon is built in that city, or (6*3+1)*3.5 = 66.5 -> 66 otherwise.

 

[mushroomshirt]

I had similar results in my test games, except for the fact my swordsmen weren't able to take any capitals (which were at 40% def bonus or higher if sitting on hills). Even lvl3 swords had combat odds below 30% so I didn't even tried to attack. That makes me wonder if I should simply bring more of them, or attack earlier.

If the latter is correct then should I skip early religion and beeline mining/BW/IW, and try to compensate researching CoL for Confucianism (besides an attempt at CS Slingshot)? By doing this I can also chop earlier and plan my 2nd city location in order to grab the metals if not present near capital.

Just my 2cents I find early attack to be the way to go in most games. I usually don't wait for swords, axes will do nicely (esp. w/ combat 1 and cover). Still, taking capitals can be tough until construction, so why do it? If it is too tough, just take out all the other cities, declare peace and move on to the next guy. You can come back for the capital later with catapults or overwhelming force.

Early attack gives you great flexibility, which I think can be very helpful in civ4. Consider this - the peaceful builder has a lot to worry about... will the AI beat me to a wonder or religion? am I in the tech lead? Is my economy OK? Can I defend against barbs? Will an aggressive civ like Monty attack? A warmonger doesn't need to ask any of these questions, conquest can answer all of them. Plus there is the added bonus that as you get stronger someone else gets weaker! Sure you need a few cottages & enough tech to get BW, IW but these types of decisions aren't as critical when you have a strong military.

I'm not a great player but I think warmongering (unlike building) is very forgiving of my inattention to detail like which tiles to work or what tech to research. Anyone remember that line from the Simpson's? "Your superior intelligence is no match for our puny weapons!"

Would love to hear some different points of view.

 

[Jove]

Whatever the math turns out to be, the Parthenon gives +1/6 gpp over the whole empire. By the time we can max out on gp's that is.
The question I guess is, if we had to choose between the Parthenon and say the Oracle or the Great Library, is the Parthenon worth it? I'd rather have the Oracle. Getting Civil Service so much earlier makes a difference. Ditto for the Great Library. The extra 2 scientists and the 2 gpp for the wonder itself give 8*2=16 more gpp (better than +100%) where it counts- the city where the first few Great Scientists are produced. Getting to scientist #2 can yield Philosophy, enabling Pacifism etc etc. This is sort of rambling, I could be wrong. Summary: choosing between big benefits, I take the one I can get soonest.

 

[LordKestrel]

I think I'll pass on this one, Prince is just too much for me.

 

[Ljdjr]

I think I'll pass on this one, Prince is just too much for me.

That's what I thought about the Emperor game a while back. But I was doing it, kicking ass, and then...
The accidental CTRL-W instead of CTRL-S. I can't wait to get there again.

To quote something stupid and true.

Whether you think you can, or you think you can't. You're probably right.

 

[Sleijpnir]

Well, I have neevr played Saladin before, but I beleive I will just go my usual warmongering way... That doesn't mean conqeust/domination necesseriy, sometimes, I stop the expansion and gor for space race (esp if I can't eb bothered spenind 30 mins a turn just moving my army aroun the map).

I realise that this leader's traits make him very suitable for a Cultural win, it's just that whenever I try to do somthing different (eg a game of peaceful building) I get trashed. On Noble. Besides the Epic game speed makes wars sligtlly easier...

 

[urbis]

I tried some test starts using the info available on the Demographics screen to try to predict whether I could reliably get Mediation first. Usually did, but in one start I had 10 beakers (via a floodplain) and all AIs had 9, but I got beaten to it. As DynamicSpirit pointed out the AIs have a tech research advantage over us on Prince level, and I think that must have explained this case (maybe an AI started utilising a 2 coin tile after radius expansion?).

Anyway I'm in agreement with the argument that Polytheism seems much more reliable to get than Meditation.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I tried some test starts using the info available on the Demographics screen to try to predict whether I could reliably get Mediation first. Usually did, but in one start I had 10 beakers (via a floodplain) and all AIs had 9, but I got beaten to it. As DynamicSpirit pointed out the AIs have a tech research advantage over us on Prince level, and I think that must have explained this case (maybe an AI started utilising a 2 coin tile after radius expansion?).

Anyway I'm in agreement with the argument that Polytheism seems much more reliable to get than Meditation.

Yep. My experience is the AI's seem initially to research polytheism less often than meditation. Based on the XML files, I'd hazard a guess that the AI's decide which tech to research at random, but with the possible techs weighted in some way. The nature of the tech is going to be one such rating, so AI's wanting to develop religion are very like to go for mysticism, then either meditation or polytheism. I would also guess (and I stress this is only a guess) that perhaps the turns to research is also factored in, with lower-cost techs being more likely to be chosen. If that's the case, that would explain the tendency of the AI to go for meditation more often.

Of course, someone is now, based on reading this thread, going to beeline for polytheism instead of meditation, get hit because on the particular throw of the random number generator in their game, an AI that also starts with mysticism did the same thing and beat them to hinduism, then they'll moan at us that we made them lose an early religion

 

[BadHorsie]

It's funny everyone says the AI never goes for poly first. I started a test game, set research for poly, and got beaten by 2 turns. I then switched over to meditation and got it first. In the other two test games I got poly no problem though.

I read that the AI goes for whatever you're going for... dunno if that's true.

 

[Cyrillin]

The AI probably goes from meditation because it is more benificial. A Monastary gives +10% research and you can spread the religion. If you go for Hinduism, you are stuck with the religion in only one city until you research monotheism and switch to organized religion, or until you research meditation as well, but the AI is probably going for better techs while you are twiddling with your religious icons

 

[Cyrillin]

Just my 2cents I find early attack to be the way to go in most games. I usually don't wait for swords, axes will do nicely (esp. w/ combat 1 and cover). Still, taking capitals can be tough until construction, so why do it?

Taking capitals is much easier if you go with city raider promotions, and the secret to taking high defense cities is overwhelming numbers!

I've been practicing with Saladin for an early warmongering victory, I've never been inclined to do such, but after A'AbarachAmadan's writeup about his GOTM 6, I've been practicing nonstop for it. I realize that Saladin's traits and UU don't lean towards this, but I also hate the amount of time that epic takes to play, so the sooner I can bang out my win, the better

 

[Markus5]

In my test game, I was surprised with copper in my fat cross and two neighbors within walking distance. Axe rush. Two archers in one capital, one in the other (one left escorting a settler). Two compeditors gone. I then expanded until my economy crashed. Hacking out the jungles is tedious. Monte to north on the other side was no treat either. Still, when I got my economic act together I had 35% of the land to work with. Monte gave me 15% more (prised from his cold dead hands).

I'll go for Bronze Working and hope for nearby copper. If the jungles look thick or copper isn't close, Iron Working next. Then a rush.

Build a scout and worker early. Explore around the place. Worker chop chop and improve as techs come on line. Hope to find good resources. Stone and marble are nice for early wonders, but if they aren't there, I doubt I'll build anything.

I'll try the CS Oracle bit again. No religion until I get the slingshot. Confucianism has been good for me in the past.

 

[mushroomshirt]

Just my 2cents I find early attack to be the way to go in most games. I usually don't wait for swords, axes will do nicely (esp. w/ combat 1 and cover). Still, taking capitals can be tough until construction, so why do it?

Taking capitals is much easier if you go with city raider promotions, and the secret to taking high defense cities is overwhelming numbers!

Admittedly I have never done the math or noticed on the odds (part of my inattention to detail). Do city raider promotions stack? Is city raider I (+20%) and city raider II (+25%) actually cumulative for a +45% vs. cities score?

I was assuming that combat I (+10%) and cover (+25%) did stack so would be slightly better against cities defended by archers (which they usually are) than city raider II.

Don't know why I assumed city raider promotions didn't stack but combat I and cover did.

 

[Xerol]

All promotions stack, but the +25% against archers is actually taken as a 25% REDUCTION in the archer's effective strength, instead of an improvement in the attacker's strength (so an archer with +100% defenses(from promotions/terrain/culture) being attacked by an axe with combat I and cover would be 5.5 vs. 5.25).

 

[mushroomshirt]

All promotions stack, but the +25% against archers is actually taken as a 25% REDUCTION in the archer's effective strength, instead of an improvement in the attacker's strength (so an archer with +100% defenses(from promotions/terrain/culture) being attacked by an axe with combat I and cover would be 5.5 vs. 5.25).

After I wrote my question and read your reply I found a strategy article on this whole thing:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=137615&page=1

Before my eyes glazed over I found that not just cover but city raider and most other promotions except combat I-V actually reduce defender's strength and don't increase the attacker's strength. Anyway this was way too much detail for me but maybe useful to others.

 

[Samson]

Just a little point, it says in this thread and the Saves available that Speed: Epic, but on the download page it says Speed: Normal. Easy to check, and I will soon, but just to let you know.