GOTM 08 - first spoiler

[godotnut]

Yes, I didn't mean I was expecting the best date. Was just musing about my personal goal - I only tried culture once before, and that was a 1930ish victory on monarch with a better leader, so I'm hoping to improve on it.

I also assume the fastest cultural dates at this level will be from a strategy that begins with warmongering and much more expansion, rather than the peaceful minimalist approach. Do you think that's true or false?

Btw, nice culture strategy guide.

Thanks for the compliment. Here my take on a cultural victory in this game:

An entirely peaceful cultural win would be easy on this map. There's plenty of room to expand and get the minimal six cities, building many nice wonders along the way. One could later grab a few island cities to get a total of nine cities, so that you can build or buy three major religious buildings in each cultural city.

A game with early aggression could also provide an excellent path, unifying the landmass early and settling 9-10 early cities instead of 6. Doing this, you could ignore naval technologies and focus totally on the one big landmass.

Which would be the faster win? I suspect that the all peaceful route, if well executed, would provide the faster date--though either path could finish in the 1600s and the ultimate difference wouldn't be much. My experience is that the secret to really fast wins is a very streamlined strategy focused totally on your victory condition. But these are riskier strateges also, as "streamlined" often means militarily weak.

So the fast, streamlined, and peaceful route would result in a weaker military down the line and leave you more vulnerable to a later invasion. With the early aggression route, you could build the Heroic Epic from an advanced soldier from the early wars--a huge military plus, obviously. If I were going cultural this game, I would probably aim to take out Washington with fairly early aggression, but not as early and aggressive as I have been playing it (I'm going for conquest this time). Why? Because I would want the Pyramids, and--as people are discovering--building costly wonders really slows development of early armies. Nevertheless, the Pyramids are a must if you want a chance at a medal for a cultural.

If I were playing for cultural, I would not build the Oracle at all--the Parthenon, with its Great Artist points and plus 50% great people bonus, is far better than the Oracle for a cultural victory. The money wonders would not be as important, because you don't need a large (and, hence, expensive) empire for a cultural win. They would be optional. Were I playing for cultural, I would prioritize the early wonders thus: Pyramids, Parthenon--definitely; Colossus, Lighthouse, Stonehenge, Oracle--optional. As for later wonders, I would build the Great Library and Sistine Chapel for sure. Notre Dame and Hanging Gardens would be at the top of the optional list. I would tech to Printing Press before shutting down research. Finally I would make it a point to meet all the other leaders as fast as I possibly could to establish trades and diplomatic ties.

I would have had an entirely different early tech path if going cultural. My conquest tech path was: Mysticism > Polytheism > Animal Husbandry > Bronze Working > Fishing > Sailing > Wheel > Pottery > Metal Casting (from the Oracle) > Farming > Writing > Alphabet.

My cultural tech path would be: Mysticism > Polytheism > Fishing > Bronze > Masonry > Wheel > Pottery > Animal Husbandry (or maybe Farming) > Writing > Alphabet > Literature > Music

Happy civving, and I wish you the best on your GOTM.

 

[DaviddesJ]

If I were playing for cultural, I would not build the Oracle at all--the Parthenon, with its Great Artist points and double great people bonus, is far better than the Oracle for a cultural victory.

Not to dwell on the obvious too much, but the Parthenon only gives +50% GPP (not double). And it's way more expensive than the Oracle, so it's not necessarily fair to compare them head to head (although in this case we have Marble, so the Parthenon is much easier than otherwise).

 

[Thrallia]

Frankly, I've never been able to get the A.I. to give up tech at any level - I don't know how other players manage this (if there's some secret to this, I'd like to know it).

same here...I've never been able to get an AI to give me tech for peace, not even when I've beaten them down to a single city. If there's something I'm doing wrong, it'd be great to know it.

 

[Jastrow]

same here...I've never been able to get an AI to give me tech for peace, not even when I've beaten them down to a single city. If there's something I'm doing wrong, it'd be great to know it.

The best time to get tech for peace is NOT once you have them down to one city. If you want to sue for tech, you need to stop when they still have 4 or 5 HEALTHY cities. Even then, it is hit or miss, but that is your best chance.

 

[Mutineer]

same here...I've never been able to get an AI to give me tech for peace, not even when I've beaten them down to a single city. If there's something I'm doing wrong, it'd be great to know it.

OK, conditions to get tech for peace.
Disclammer:
Most what I will be saying come from expirience and not checked in SDK by any means.

It is my believe that tech you get for peace count as a trade toward and influence by WFUBTA limit.
The same is true for gifted tech.
So, if you are hitting this limit you will not resieve tech for peace, even tech is pseudo avalible in trade screen.

Second factor is cost of tech. Maximum cost of tech you can get depends on size of opponent civ at that moment.

So, to achieve maximum effect you need to beat civ good enogth so it is villing to part with maximum costs of techs it could part.

Easiest way to get some tech for peace is to do it befor conducting any trades and early on you can get tech like monarchy if opponent has only 1 city left. However do not expect to get banking if you left opponent with only one city.

 

[BLubmuz]

I can't agree with BLubmuz at all. We have a great starting position (pigs, fish, gold, and copper and spices), and a huge amount of room to expand. Washington also has a good starting position, which is good for us, as it gives us a trading partner, and his cities will be good for us whenever we attack and capture them. The only thing that makes this game at all difficult is the early completions for Oracle etc. (at least in some games). Otherwise it seems significantly easier than average Monarch.

Of course mine was an opinion, I don't pretend it is the truth, but:
the starting spot is good, but if you loose CS slingshot you got a poor land,
and with maces long delayed i can't see how to beat GW, that is advanced in tech despite the starting spot,
you gotta wait Cavalry, but you could also find Grenadiers.
More, I get CS via Oracle, but for the early ages I was behind Viky and Cathy, and only the conquest of GW lands gave me a chance.
I'll like to try myself if i'm wrong, i'll reload and play with a different strategy (now i submitted my poor SS victory)

 

[Thrallia]

I didn't even attempt a CS slingshot, nor did I war Washington early, yet I was left in a good enough position that I've been the tech and score leader the entire game so far.

edit: I realize that might also have something to do with the fact I was on adventurer and got a second settler.

 

[DaviddesJ]

the starting spot is good, but if you loose CS slingshot you got a poor land

Seriously, what is poor about it? You have lots of resources (especially food which are the most important, but also a good selection of happiness resources), and lots of space. If you gamble on CS slingshot and fail, you'll find it hard to fight GW early, but so what? There are plenty of other ways to advance in the game.

I agree that if you gamble on CS slingshot and fail, that hurts your development, but that's only fair---it is a gamble. It's too bad to see some players getting the Oracle in 1000 BC, while others are beat to it in 1500 BC---that undermines the comparison between games---but it's just the luck of the draw. Maybe next time you'll be the lucky one.

 

[drkodos]

I agree that if you gamble on CS slingshot and fail, that hurts your development, but that's only fair---it is a gamble. It's too bad to see some players getting the Oracle in 1000 BC, while others are beat to it in 1500 BC---that undermines the comparison between games---but it's just the luck of the draw. Maybe next time you'll be the lucky one.

Agreed. In my GotM one of the AI countries grabbed the Oracle @ 1760 BC and I lost the gamble. I knew going into it that if it didn't work out I would be in dire straits, so I live with the failure. (actually I got crushed and did not live very long at all--gamewise!).

In a subsequent replay, I was able to nab the Oracle, both GL's and Colossus. I figure luck has something to do with it on some levels (possibly another country popped a hut for a tech in my official game?), but greater than luck is the overlying strategy that I applied as sentient human. Of course, my original strategy was deeply flawed because I had no back-up plan when I did not get the wonders I craved.

To get over this hump of wonder addiction, I am now playing multiple games where I build not one single wonder (in order to practice for the next GotM, which, I suspect, will be on Emperor strength).

 

[Markus5]

I got a good start following strategies in the pregame thread. The capital ended up being a good all-around city, with commerce, science and production. The second city was built NE by the corn and the third city SE by the lake. The second city became a science/commerce city and the third city was my arsenal. The first set back was the very early Oracle. The second set back was loosing my second city to barbs. It was taken back one turn later, but I lost a lot of early production. Three more cities were built on the home landmass. One more east, one north on the peninsula and one west. The western city was the best commerce site for the empire. I was able to build the Colossus and Hanging Gardens and some other wonders. One work boat was set out to circumnavigate the world.

That's about it. Oh, next step was to take care of the "American Problem."

 

[Vynd]

I also disagree with the idea that the region we start in is not very good. It's full of different kinds of resources and has ample room to build several nice cities. It isn't the best starting location I've ever played, but it's definitely a good one. Those who like to expand militarily early in the game may be disappointed by the relative lack of close by neighbors. But when you consider that an archipelago start could easily have us alone on an island with barely enough room for 2 cities, being on a sizable landmass with another civ isn't half-bad.

 

[malekithe]

...and with maces long delayed i can't see how to beat GW, that is advanced in tech despite the starting spot,
you gotta wait Cavalry, but you could also find Grenadiers.

If maces are delayed, use axes.

I hit a 1400 BC CS Slingshot and immediately started producing an axeman army to take out Washington (started is a bit inaccurate, I actually started as soon as the copper was hooked up, but I had to pause for a while to work on the oracle). All that was required to knock out Washington was about 12-18 axemen. My inital attack force was 7 axemen in ~700BC. Reinforcements were a pain for a while, until I got a galley positioned in the bay to serve as a bridge across the narrowest part. George would have been dead around 1AD, but he had managed to plunk another city down by the iron. So, my army had to march all the way down from Washington to take out that last city. The 3 archers there defended stubbornly (against my reduced army of 6 axemen), but some newly minted macemen finally purged the land of the Americans in ~250AD.

By 400 AD, I've got 12 macemen ready to be shipped overseas. I hope Toku and Cyrus like the gift...

On a different note, someone far away (not Cyrus or Toku) has been doing some crazy wonder building. Great Library was completed before 1AD, Hanging Garden came in around 200AD. Sistine Chapel came in sometime before I stopped for the day. Not to mention the fact that Christianity was founded in 550BC, much earlier than I usually see it. Looks like I could be in for a bit of a tech race... At least Toku and Cyrus seem relatively backwards.

 

[RobertTheBruce]

Starting Plan
Conquest rush: I played a couple of test games and noticed the following problems for conquest/domination.

1> Archipelago maps spread your cities far from your capital quickly. Early conquest can be dangerous because you will be quickly out teched by the AI while a developing economy gets hammered by maintenance.

2> Rocky = hammers, hammers, hammers. Lots of production cities but there were a lot of sites in test games which could not be farmed. So, a lot of slow growing cities with poor commerce

3> Rocky = CG longbows on hills. A SoD requires a huge flow of suicide cats and city raider maces to keep moving and a lot of boats to move these reinforcements.

I'll try to overcome the huge military and city maintenance costs with mercantilism and religion.

I followed Stormreaver's CS slingshot guide with the goals of early maces and found confucianism. Mace rush a civ with another early shrine and use organized religion to spread both to every city I capture. Money and research are often more of an issue than units so build more infrastructure than usual for domination (markets, banks, grocers) switch to mercantilism for a merchant giving 6gpt in every city plus 4 more from religion. This will pay most of the city maintenance (6per city + average 6 distance) = 6gpt after courthouse + 6gpt for civics (HR + Vasalage + Mercantilism + OR + Slavery) for a size 8 city.

In tests I could run 50% science and stay at tech parity in the middle game while running a huge army. Otherwise, my dominations tend to have trouble until cities grow and cottages develop.

Plan meets reality
A few bonehead moves by me and really early wonders threw wrenches in the plan. Stormreaver's initial moves worked well and I chopped a library to work two scientists. I added Wheel and Pottery before Priesthood and still got the Oracle in 1000BC. Unfortunately, Confucionism was founded in 1080BC. (I've never had it founded this early without the AI using the Oracle). Great scientist for the academy and I'm teching away.

I lost my scout and first warrior scouting a second city site and my second warrior escorting my first settler. No huts popped until late ADs. I mistakenly hook up the copper instead of the gold while I have to unhappy citizens in my only city (growth + no military) this switches my warrior build to a spearman further delaying production and Code of Laws. ( I would have founded Confucianism without this mistake). I wanted Stonehenge, Great Lighthouse and the circumnavigation bonus but they all were taken by the AI very early. (Stonehenge in 2000BC.)

No religion means I can't build a temple and work a priest like I planned to pop a great prophet but I don't have a shrine to build anyway.

Start building a few axes to scout and another settler and slowly found my empire. (So much for quick conquest). I have to thank Washington for his city placement, plus he founded Hinduism, the second religion in my original plan. He put Atlanta right where I wanted a city near the horses and Washington, New York and Boston were all great cities. My maces and a few cats for New York added his cities to my empire and the Americans are reduced to a single city off continent at 500AD. The Japanese will be next.

I'm way behind schedule for conquest and economicly a shambles with no GLH, no Shrines, few developed cottages and no banks yet. I'm trading up the tech tree with all the other civs since I have already wasted the tech lead the slingshot gave me. Looks like I may be building Panzers before this is over.

 

[Jove]

Ok, I settled 1 west just like everyone else. My strategy was similar to Godotnut's- get the Oracle, use it for metallurgy, get the Great Lighthouse and the Colossus. Only, it didn't work out that way.
Maybe I studied too many techs at the start. An unknown civ built the Oracle in 1640, beating me by maybe 3 turns. That was waaay sooner than I ever expected. So, what other wonders did this same civ build before 500AD? The Colossus-575BC. The Pyramids-700BC. Chichen Itza-275BC. Hanging Gardens-225AD. Note to self- take the Oracle for Fishing, anything(!) next time, just to prevent this from happening!
It might look like I was sunk, but I think I put together a workable 'Plan B'. We did finish the Great Lighthouse and also got the Great Library in Berlin. Washington didn't build any wonders, and we didn't explore his land for centuries anyway, so we just left him alone. In fact, besides a few barb towns, we didn't get into any fights at all. We just concentrated on growing lots of cities and making them big and productive. BTW- the Lighthouse really IS nice for expansion, but the economy will still crash if you go nuts expanding. I didn't, I had 7 towns by 500, and one more that got destroyed by the barb that came out of the single dark square in the two turns it wasn't illumitated... arrrr.
Here's some tech dates, Priesthood is in there somewhere: Animal Husbandry 3520. Fishing 3320. BW 2840. Wheel 2600. Myst 2440. Meditation, 2200. Masonry 1840. Pottery 1640.
Some key dates, just so you can feel good about having done better
-550BC Learn Metal Casting by hand.
-50AD Monarchy. The Great Merchant we'd saved learns 90% of Civil Service for us. We got beat to CoL btw...
-175 AD Emerge from Anarchy with Hereditary Rule, Bureaucracy, Caste System.
-375 Great Library in Berlin.
-450 Great Engineer born in Berlin.

At 500 our production is blowing away all the competition and there is still plenty of room to grow, plenty of resources to claim. If the path I'd followed had been my original strategy it would have been more powerful, but oh well. The engineer is in storage for now, either to learn Engineering or to take a later wonder, we'll see. I do feel like Germany is well poised to take the mid-game wonders should she desire them, we're all caught up and pulling ahead in tech, along with everything else.

 

[Ribannah]

Contender

As you can see in the above picture, it is 1000bc and we just built our second city, Hamburg, on the cape south of Berlin. We have almost researched Polytheism. So what happened, that we are so backward and undeveloped?

Well, the image is deceiving, as you may have guessed. Berlin, at size 7, has been quite busy for 3,000 years, way too busy to see the need for starting an empire just yet:

Berlin
4000bc Settled one west of starting position
3400bc Worker
3160bc Size 2
2880bc Work Boat
3000bc Size 3
2760bc Size 4
2720bc Warrior
2320bc Library
2160bc Warrior
1640bc Academy
1600bc ORACLE
1440bc Worker
1240bc Settler -> Hamburg in 1200bc
1040bc STONEHENGE
1000bc Lighthouse

So yes, we managed the Civil Service slingshot.

The key was to start with the right tech, Animal Husbandry.
There are several other attempts which are simply too slow, as on this map the AI will start building wonders, and specifically the Oracle, early:
(a) Fishing first, immediately followed by a Work Boat, either interrupting a Worker build or (slightly better) growing to size 2 from the get-go.
This is clearly suboptimal. Not only does the Pig give 6 food and the Fish only 5, but more importantly the Worker will not be out as fast to mine the gold.
(b) Skipping Animal Husbandry altogether and taking the The Wheel -> Pottery -> Writing route (after Fishing). This seems very attractive since you get to build more and improve more land on the way. In fact on a Challenger start this is even the fastest route (1400bc, by putting a cottage on the Pig). Unfortunately, it is not fast enough, and the AI will beat you.
(c) Squeezing in Sailing, somewhere. With Open Borders (otherwise Washington is out of reach) this gives extra gold from the trade route but it is not enough to make up for the investment in time.
(d) Squeezing in Bronze Working, for extra hammers (even Copper within the city radius, but there is no way of knowing that of course). Great idea, you can complete the Library and the Oracle faster, but you will get Code of Laws too late.
(e) Taking Mysticism and Polytheism right after Fishing or Animal Husbandry (but not both). You will found Hinduism and can grow more, but it is way too slow.

So except for the very, very lucky who have the AI on other priorities, there seems to be only one tech path and in my game it went thus:

Technology
3520bc Animal Husbandry
3280bc Fishing
2800bc Writing
2600bc The Wheel
2440bc Mysticism
2240bc Meditation
2160bc Priesthood
1600bc Code of Laws, Civil Service (Oracle)

The one variation I see is skipping The Wheel which means you can't grow to size 6. I haven't tested this. I liked giving my Worker something to do.

Of course once you have made the CS slingshot the game is virtually over on this level. Almost anything goes. I decided to establish a Monarchy since luxuries are a bit hard to come by (Gems all taken by America at this time, he would trade one later for Copper) and we can afford all the police we want.
Chose Hereditary Rule and Organized Religion together for just one turn of anarchy (due to only having 3 cities at the time).

The techs continued with:

1440bc Bronze Working
1320bc Sailing
1240bc Agriculture
1120bc Pottery
1060bc Masonry
975bc Polytheism
925bc Monotheism
775bc Monarchy

In 750bc Berlin completed the Great Lighthouse and I lost interest after that, running to 1AD quickly. We settled the south (including horses and iron), found more AI's (all with little to offer), got more great persons (priest for the Kong Miao, scientist joined Berlin), grew well above 1M, and completed a.o. the Colossus. In 1AD we are far ahead in every respect and I will probably not continue this game any further.

 

[DaviddesJ]

In 1AD we are far ahead in every respect and I will probably not continue this game any further.

So why didn't you play at Challenger where the game is at least somewhat more difficult?

 

[akots]

... In 1AD we are far ahead in every respect and I will probably not continue this game any further.

Indeed, that much is true and it is not a great challenge. On the other hand, the map script and logistics is very challenging. And that actually makes the race for Domination quite interesting wtih this GOTM. Of course, there is little doubt, it is quite possible to win and easily indeed from this position. But the question is how rapidly compared to others you can accomplish that task.

So why didn't you play at Challenger where the game is at least somewhat more difficult?

No, you can't be serious. It is all the same just a few turns later.

There is this magical CS gambit research path, - Mysticism, Polytheism, Priesthood, Writing, CoL, CS (Oracle). I don't know why and what is it exactly that following this particular path is doing to the AI but it just is working. Ribannah's path is also working in this particular map but it requires to play as Contender.

The techs continued with:

1440bc Bronze Working
1320bc Sailing
1240bc Agriculture
1120bc Pottery
1060bc Masonry
975bc Polytheism
925bc Monotheism
775bc Monarchy

You could have just research Alphabet right after CS instead and traded all this plus much more from the AI saving tons and tons of beakers and time. Since this is a normal speed game, time is golden on this map. It would have required the second fishing boat for scouting though, so I guess fishing still has to go first prior to Animal Husbandry in this case.

 

[Murky]

Indeed, that much is true and it is not a great challenge. On the other hand, the map script and logistics is very challenging. And that actually makes the race for Domination quite interesting wtih this GOTM. Of course, there is little doubt, it is quite possible to win and easily indeed from this position. But the question is how rapidly compared to others you can accomplish that task.

Exactly.

 

[malekithe]

In 1AD we are far ahead in every respect and I will probably not continue this game any further.

Most of the challenge in these lower difficulty games is in finding out how fast you can convert that lead into a victory. This map provides its own unique challenges in that respect. Depending on the victory you choose, there are likely to be many crucial decisions left that could greatly affect the speed with which you finish. I, for one, have never attempted a conquest victory on an archipilego map. I achieved a similar superiority to yours in the early game. However, one of the big questions I'm asking myself still is, "When is my current lead large enough to turn off research and focus solely on military?" I'm pretty sure the answer is different from your average continents or pangaea map where I could realistically conquer the rest of the world without ever getting much past the medieval age.

 

[Mad Professor]

Most of the challenge in these lower difficulty games is in finding out how fast you can convert that lead into a victory. This map provides its own unique challenges in that respect. Depending on the victory you choose, there are likely to be many crucial decisions left that could greatly affect the speed with which you finish. I, for one, have never attempted a conquest victory on an archipilego map. I achieved a similar superiority to yours in the early game. However, one of the big questions I'm asking myself still is, "When is my current lead large enough to turn off research and focus solely on military?" I'm pretty sure the answer is different from your average continents or pangaea map where I could realistically conquer the rest of the world without ever getting much past the medieval age.

Exactly. And those of us for whom Monarch is anything but a "lower difficulty game" would just love to read how you do just that!