GOTM 09: Pre-Game discussion

[wwassme]

What game setting is driving the large number of barbs?

If I'm reading the numbers right, on Emperor a barb spawns every 20 turns for each 35 tiles of unowned land. See http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=161282 Handicaps table at iUnownedTilesperBarbarianUnit and iBarbarianCreationTurns Elapsed.

By comparison, on Monarch a barb spawns every 25 turns for each 40 tiles of unowned land. For Prince it its every 30 turns for each 50 unowned tiles.

I'm sure there are other factors which affect the number of barbarians, the type and where they appear, but those look like the main two.

 

[BLubmuz]

I would like to listen other players comments about Oracle:

In my test games I always found Buddhism and always was able to use Oracle for CS slingshot, but:
- Only stealin a worker I was able to build a 2nd city before Oracle since I has 8 (eight) quechuas guarding cities and fogbusting,
- I was in serious danger with only Quechuas to defend (DynamicSpirit has the same doubt, if i'm not wrong),
- Unless some good resource is under the hidden tiles (or needs a tech), Cuzco is not a "powerhouse" so perhaps doesn't worth the double risk (1st risk been beaten on Oracle, 2nd risk been seriously damaged, if not destroyed by Barbs).

So i'm oriented for a MC slingshot, and to research optics ASAP, of course i'll make the final choice after i'll see the actual GotM9.

 

[Big Pig]

A real problem I'm having in test games is that - even if there is copper nearby - it's very hard to get it hooked up and get any axemen out before the barb axemen start appearing, and at that point if I don't have something more than quechas I'm sunk.

It seems from my test games that barb axemen only start to appear when I start making axemen. If I delay making axemen and concentrate on quechuas and archers, then the barbs will all be warriors and archers. Thus rushing to build axemen for barb defense may be counter-productive.

 

[BLubmuz]

It seems from my test games that barb axemen only start to appear when I start making axemen. If I delay making axemen and concentrate on quechuas and archers, then the barbs will all be warriors and archers. Thus rushing to build axemen for barb defense may be counter-productive.

Is a coincidence: in my games they start to appear after i get BW, with copper beeing mined, if not before i got BW (not sure).
For what i know barbs produces units when a given number of civs knows (and only knows) the related tech.

 

[Erkon]

Hi all,

I have played six trial games to test different strategies to accomplish a CS slingshot. I played three maps (two from this forum, thanks!) with correct settings and start terrain. The earliest date for Oracle was:

Oracle : 1300 BC
Build: Quechua, Worker, Quechua, Quechua, Quechua, Oracle
Research: Polyteism, Mining, Wheel, Pottery, Priesthood, Writing, CoL
Improve: Gold, Cottages (on flood plains)
Final city size: 4 + 75%
No huts explored and one worker stolen but was idle to avoid interference from random events.

Oracle : 1180 BC
Build: Quechua, Worker, Quechua, Quechua, Barracks, Quechua, Oracle
Research: Polyteism, Mining, Animal Husbandry, Wheel, Pottery, Priesthood, Writing, CoL
Improve: Gold, Pasture, Cottages (on flood plains)
Final city size: 6 + 30%
No huts explored and one worker stolen and used. The extra four turns were used to research A.H, improve Pasture and build Barracks.

Oracle : 1150 BC
Build: Worker, Quechua, Quechua, Quechua, Barracks, Quechua, Oracle
Research: Polyteism, Mining, Animal Husbandry, Wheel, Pottery, Priesthood, Writing, CoL
Improve: Gold, Pasture, Cottages (on flood plains)
Final city size: 5+ 30%
No huts explored and one worker stolen and used. The Oracle date was similar, but the delay to get my second Quechua reduces the chance to get a hut and steal a worker.

Oracle : 970 BC
Build: Quechua, Worker, Barracks, 5 x Quechua, Oracle
Research: Polyteism, Mining, Wheel, Pottery, Animal Husbandry, Bronze Working, Priesthood, Writing, CoL
Improve: Gold, Cottages (on flood plains), Pasture
Final city size: 6 + 20%
No huts explored and one worker stolen and used. The extra turns were used to research B.W, and build Quechuas.

Conclusions: Build Quechua, then worker. Steal worker. Skip B.W. Go for CS Slingshot.

Other notes:

Buddhism is <50% to get. On the other hand, I never converted to Hinduism due to enough happiness in capital, so Meditation will shave off up to three turns to Oracle. A.I. founds Buddhism as early as on turn 14 (3640 BC) and Judaism on turn 48 (2620 BC)

After Oracle, I converted to Confucianism and bureaucracy. The extra 50% research and production in capital means that for each two turns gained in Oracle data, I get one extra turn for free (roughly).

Animals show up on turn 8 (3790 BC).
Barbarians (warriors and archers) show up as early as on turn 44 (2740 BC). From then on, sentry Quechuas are necessary.
Barbarian axe-men show up later than turn 100 (~1000 BC)
It is important that the size of the capital is matched towards the health and happiness. Health increase from grown forests help, but food is not as limiting as unhappiness.

One basic idea with my strategy is that it should be independent of the GOTM -09 save-game. Stealing a worker or goodies from huts will improve the end year of the Oracle. Barbarian swarming may require another Quechua (or Barracks). A delay in production is not as harmful as a delay in research, since the forested hill can speed up production. Thus, I will build a Quechua first, and then a worker.

The final uncertainty is the leaders on the same continent (two or three). I noticed that if I am too aggressive (long war after worker is stolen), then the A.I. will not have any tech to trade, and not willing to trade those they have. So, by harassing the A.I. early on and preventing your nearest neighbor to expand will reduce the chance to trade technologies. Again, this depends on the A.I. leader.

I have attached my excel chart if anyone is interested in more details.

/Erkon

 

[BLubmuz]

About techs trading: in 2 different games (mine and one of the other 2, tx)
after i destroyed the civ whose i stolen the worker, the other one NEVER traded a single tech and was PLEASED with me.
Otherwise, in a game where i only stolen the worker and made peace, i could trade with both my neighbours (the victim at end DoW on me, but traded).

Conclusion: Probably if we'll get 3 neighbours we'll can try to destroy one, otherwise better let it live, but expect a war (after trading, perhaps).

 

[Murky]

Hi all,

I have played six trial games to test different strategies to accomplish a CS slingshot. I played three maps (two from this forum, thanks!) with correct settings and start terrain. The earliest date for Oracle was:

Oracle : 1300 BC
Build: Quechua, Worker, Quechua, Quechua, Quechua, Oracle
Research: Polyteism, Mining, Wheel, Pottery, Priesthood, Writing, CoL
Improve: Gold, Cottages (on flood plains)
Final city size: 4 + 75%
No huts explored and one worker stolen but was idle to avoid interference from random events.

Oracle : 1180 BC
Build: Quechua, Worker, Quechua, Quechua, Barracks, Quechua, Oracle
Research: Polyteism, Mining, Animal Husbandry, Wheel, Pottery, Priesthood, Writing, CoL
Improve: Gold, Pasture, Cottages (on flood plains)
Final city size: 6 + 30%
No huts explored and one worker stolen and used. The extra four turns were used to research A.H, improve Pasture and build Barracks.

Oracle : 1150 BC
Build: Worker, Quechua, Quechua, Quechua, Barracks, Quechua, Oracle
Research: Polyteism, Mining, Animal Husbandry, Wheel, Pottery, Priesthood, Writing, CoL
Improve: Gold, Pasture, Cottages (on flood plains)
Final city size: 5+ 30%
No huts explored and one worker stolen and used. The Oracle date was similar, but the delay to get my second Quechua reduces the chance to get a hut and steal a worker.

Oracle : 970 BC
Build: Quechua, Worker, Barracks, 5 x Quechua, Oracle
Research: Polyteism, Mining, Wheel, Pottery, Animal Husbandry, Bronze Working, Priesthood, Writing, CoL
Improve: Gold, Cottages (on flood plains), Pasture
Final city size: 6 + 20%
No huts explored and one worker stolen and used. The extra turns were used to research B.W, and build Quechuas.

Conclusions: Build Quechua, then worker. Steal worker. Skip B.W. Go for CS Slingshot.

Other notes:

Buddhism is <50% to get. On the other hand, I never converted to Hinduism due to enough happiness in capital, so Meditation will shave off up to three turns to Oracle. A.I. founds Buddhism as early as on turn 14 (3640 BC) and Judaism on turn 48 (2620 BC)

After Oracle, I converted to Confucianism and bureaucracy. The extra 50% research and production in capital means that for each two turns gained in Oracle data, I get one extra turn for free (roughly).

Animals show up on turn 8 (3790 BC).
Barbarians (warriors and archers) show up as early as on turn 44 (2740 BC). From then on, sentry Quechuas are necessary.
Barbarian axe-men show up later than turn 100 (~1000 BC)
It is important that the size of the capital is matched towards the health and happiness. Health increase from grown forests help, but food is not as limiting as unhappiness.

One basic idea with my strategy is that it should be independent of the GOTM -09 save-game. Stealing a worker or goodies from huts will improve the end year of the Oracle. Barbarian swarming may require another Quechua (or Barracks). A delay in production is not as harmful as a delay in research, since the forested hill can speed up production. Thus, I will build a Quechua first, and then a worker.

The final uncertainty is the leaders on the same continent (two or three). I noticed that if I am too aggressive (long war after worker is stolen), then the A.I. will not have any tech to trade, and not willing to trade those they have. So, by harassing the A.I. early on and preventing your nearest neighbor to expand will reduce the chance to trade technologies. Again, this depends on the A.I. leader.

I have attached my excel chart if anyone is interested in more details.

/Erkon

Very good analysis.

I would guess that if you don't convert prior to getting alphabet you'll be more likely to trade techs with the AI you didn't steal the worker from. The gotm staff tends to remove huts so we can't count on them. The 2nd AI you meet will probably share a boarder with the AI you delcared on so you could probably bribe them into a war to open a second front.

 

[Palpster]

I hardly have time to get one GOTM in, amazed at people that are running "6 test games" prior to GOTM even starting, lol.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I hardly have time to get one GOTM in, amazed at people that are running "6 test games" prior to GOTM even starting, lol.

True, but I suspect none of the test games are complete games, they are simply running through the early stages of the game to see what the best strategy to get your early civ established is - and that doesn't take long. I've done quite a few test games to try out different approaches, but I'm pretty sure the total time I'll have spent is still small compared to how long I'll spend playing the (complete) GOTM.

 

[Dagnabit]

Am fairly new to CIV and have only played a few games so far (none at this level) so expect to have an early exit from my first GOTM. I have never tried to steal a worker before because I wasn't ready to make war. Doesn't the AI retaliate against your City or is it easy to make peace fairly soon? Do you wait to steal a worker after you have a couple warriers or just beeline with your first to the nearest AI you find?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I would like to listen other players comments about Oracle:

In my test games I always found Buddhism and always was able to use Oracle for CS slingshot, but:
- Only stealin a worker I was able to build a 2nd city before Oracle since I has 8 (eight) quechuas guarding cities and fogbusting,
- I was in serious danger with only Quechuas to defend (DynamicSpirit has the same doubt, if i'm not wrong),

You're not wrong. After a couple more tests I've moving towards, after bronze working, heading straight for archery UNLESS there is copper right next to your capital that you can hook up and build an axeman with straight away. Having archers and quechas combined makes a real difference to your defensive capabilities, and seems to mean you need fewer units fogbusting (which does quickly start to cost gold)

- Unless some good resource is under the hidden tiles (or needs a tech), Cuzco is not a "powerhouse" so perhaps doesn't worth the double risk (1st risk been beaten on Oracle, 2nd risk been seriously damaged, if not destroyed by Barbs).

So i'm oriented for a MC slingshot, and to research optics ASAP, of course i'll make the final choice after i'll see the actual GotM9.

Yeah that's the real issue for me with CS slingshot. I love the idea, and I can certainly see that if you can get CS that quickly, it'll give you a real boost in your game. But at the same time the risks of being overrun by barbs or being beaten to the Oracle are huge. COL (or MC) slingshot at least means you can get a settler out before you build the oracle, which means, if you can get a decent production-spot for your 2nd city, you can have something churning out military units while the Oracle is being built.

Incidentally in my last test game I had stone in the capital radius, so I ended up building the pyramids instead of the oracle. My gut impression was having the pyramids helped me a lot more than COL or MC slingshot would've done. Representation = much bigger cities early on. But without stone I probably couldn't have built them in the first place.

 

[Jon Shaw]

Well done to the GOTM staff for getting the results for 6+7 out, I'm impressed by the level of effort going into sorting out ~300 games a time. An apt smiley/game icon is

I still reckon I'll get immolated in the upcoming game as it is on Emperor, unless it is an extremely choice start location beyond what we can see.

My advice after trying a practise Emperor game is (this is coming from a Prince/Monarch level player, and aimed at other lower-tier players, so please don't berate me ) :

1. Barbarians are insane. Don't leave your military size behind or stick with quechas only. Quechas can certainly hold off archers, but are mediocre against warriors and fail miserably against barb axemen. Archers and/or axemen are needed (I prefer axemen). I aimed for bronze working very early and still only just got axemen in time.

2. The AI will expand very fast. Budget allowing, claim choice city sites asap.

3. Don't get despondent if the AI out grows you. I find at least 50% of my commerce and useful production comes from a minority of cities- its not your size, its what you do with it

City specialisation is really important to maximise your cities' productivity. I'd love to build every building in every city, but it isn't a good plan. For instance, building Heroic Epic (is that the +100% military production one?) in one production city can give your army a real boost: I almost equalled the AI's "power" rating using just this one city to build military units constantly


4. Don't worry if you're behind on techs. If you're like me, its going to happen.
Researching alphabet before the AI then trading helps a lot, and then aim for the AI's lower priority techs. You won't get a "fair" swap on techs, but if you discover a tech early you can swap it for a smaller one from each agreeable civ, making a net gain over several trades.

 

[Grampaw]

Am fairly new to CIV and have only played a few games so far (none at this level) so expect to have an early exit from my first GOTM. I have never tried to steal a worker before because I wasn't ready to make war. Doesn't the AI retaliate against your City or is it easy to make peace fairly soon? Do you wait to steal a worker after you have a couple warriers or just beeline with your first to the nearest AI you find?

The AI won't come after you unless he has an extra archer floating around, and usually he doesn't. The AI will attack your stealing unit, though, and if the AI loses the battle, they will usually agree to peace unconditionally after 10-12 turns. If the AI wins the battle, they will want some compensation for peace (like a city or a tech), and that demand can last a long time, or until they lose at least an archer in a subsequent battle.

 

[bshumbera]

If you can manage to steal the worker very early and camp 2 or 3 quechas in a forest or jungle (or even better a forested or jungled hill) on a square adjacent to the AI capital (assuming it's their only city), you can sit there for SEVERAL turns while the AI attacks your stack with an archer every few turns. This makes for EASY xp on your quechas and lets you get a few axemen built to finish off the capital . I've used this to eliminate an AI very early in 2 of my 3 tests so far.

 

[Jastrow]

BLUE CIRCLE???

In the starting screenshot, there is a blue circle on the starting location... How can that be? I tried putting in everything I see on the image, and I never get a blue circle there... Adding resource in the tiles of the edge can move the blue circle, but I have not been able to get it to the starting square, as it always prefers either 1E or 1W... The ONLY way I have found to put a blue circle in place, is by puting strategic resource BOTH 1E, and 1W. Perhaps copper and horses, or something similar... Could the GOTM team really have given us THAT gigantic a start location? Or is there another arangement I am overlooking which produce this circle?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

BLUE CIRCLE???

In the starting screenshot, there is a blue circle on the starting location... How can that be? I tried putting in everything I see on the image, and I never get a blue circle there... Adding resource in the tiles of the edge can move the blue circle, but I have not been able to get it to the starting square, as it always prefers either 1E or 1W... The ONLY way I have found to put a blue circle in place, is by puting strategic resource BOTH 1E, and 1W. Perhaps copper and horses, or something similar... Could the GOTM team really have given us THAT gigantic a start location? Or is there another arangement I am overlooking which produce this circle?

Have you tried replacing one of the copper or horses by something like uranium, oil, or aluminium?

 

[Jastrow]

Yes, that works as well... As long as I block BOTH the 1E and 1W square with some resource, then I get the blue circle in the center. No matter what the resources, this would give 7FP, Gold, Wine, Sheep and two strategic resource in the fat cross... That is a bit much to expect at random, but I guess if this is a set start, it is possible. Eitehr that, or I am missing some other tile combination which has an effect on the circles that I am not anticipating.

 

[bshumbera]

What about both 2E and 2W of starting location, or some combination of 2E and 1W or 1E and 2W? It would kind of stink to possibly have to chop those forests for say horses when we could really use them for health. It would be much more convenient to have to mine the hill 2W for something like copper.

 

[Jastrow]

Well, I certainly dont claim to have tried all possibilities, but everything I tried with resources 2 squares away from the starting spot resulted in the circle 1E or 1W... I think the system really hates "wasting" a FP by building on it, and always opts for the square next to it if it is a reasonable alternative. Of course, perhaps someone else can have better luck at finding some placement which works.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

What about both 2E and 2W of starting location, or some combination of 2E and 1W or 1E and 2W? It would kind of stink to possibly have to chop those forests for say horses when we could really use them for health. It would be much more convenient to have to mine the hill 2W for something like copper.

Do copper or horses ever get placed under forest on the starting map? I can't recall it ever happening to me. And although Ainwood usually modifies the map, I think he normally does so in a way that's consistent with what the map generator tends to produce.