1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Gotm 108 Spoiler

Discussion in 'Civ2 - Game of the Month' started by Peaster, Mar 5, 2010.

  1. Magic_gorter

    Magic_gorter Moderator Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2006
    Messages:
    2,699
    Location:
    Amersfoort (Netherlands)
    For me Railroad and engineers was most important too. If I play this game again I know I should trade more and accept low revenues to get those techs earlier. And I think in this game the SoL is one of the most important members.
     
  2. CharlieChuck

    CharlieChuck Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2007
    Messages:
    305
    Location:
    england
    was 120ad, I got the save date wrong in the post. You're definately ahead, I finished 1874ad just before MG.

    600ad 26 cities (3 spanish cities left) 5 ellies 3 crus 2 vans, 23 techs (researching construction), Republic, 7 wonders + GL, Gwall, Sun tzus & michaels, furthest city west 385.
    1080ad 37 cities (just captured 2 persian cities) 13 sett 3 elleis 13 crus 19 vans, 25 techs (res. Astro), repub, 7 wonders, furth west 330
    1520ad 45 cities (6 persian cities left) 15 sett 2 ellies 18 crus 38 vans, 31 techs (resear Invention), in monarchy, 8 Wonders + Copper, lighthouse was destroyed, Kyoto size 12 88science nearly finished Isaacs, furth west 296

    will do last bit tomorrow
     
  3. Peaster

    Peaster Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2004
    Messages:
    1,295
    I'm trying to decide which statistics best "tell the story". Kind of hard, since our games seem so similar. Have looked mainly at 1ad, 1000ad and 1500ad. We 3 were very similar in terms of advances, and size of army. I eventually built more cities and vans, which probably helped my science later on [unclear whether that really mattered, though it was pleasant to finally get Fundy, spies, etc].

    I started racing Westwards from the beginning, and got ahead early, crossing into Spain first. I think we moved west at similar speeds after that, so I suppose we were all moving at approx the max speed in the late game. I guess the "race west" idea was good. At the time I had doubts about it - about high corruption, slowed ics growth, etc. But maybe that is a key stat for this gotm; westward progress ASAP.

    On the other hand, we 3 had very similar early tech progress. So, that stat might be even more important - it's hard to say just from our 3 games. A 4th player might help us decide on this.

    @CC; did you switch monarchy - republic - monarchy ? If so, did that work out well ?
     
  4. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    May 29, 2002
    Messages:
    2,930
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    Thanks for posting logs. It is nice to be able to compare. I am not done yet. I got back in town last week and after catching up with life started playing. I need at least another week. I should be able to finish before Magic's two week extension runs out.

    Some major differences between my game and the ones posted here are that:

    1. I kept the second settler for terrain improvement. I usually do this but at times I wonder about its value vs. building a second city. In this game with no specials I was pretty sure it is worthwhile to keep the settler.

    2. I did map analysis and mined all hidden specials.

    3. I have been very slow moving West. Far slower than the rest of you.

    My first push was obviously for Monarchy which with careful manipulation was achieved and established in -1650. Next goal was trade which was achieved in -925. With only 5 cities at the time and the urge for expansion Marco did not get done till -325. Colossus got done the same turn in my trade city. I do not remember now why I did both in parallel; in retrospect Colossus could have waited longer.

    Other than map exchange Marco was a disappointment. Vikings and Persians had very few techs; Mongols I had already met and traded with; Spanish only had Mysticism among the things I wanted; but worst of all Romans with half a dozen techs that I did want were unwilling to trade because they were building Pyramids.

    From this point on the Romans were a major pain. They took for ever to build Pyramids and within a few turns switched to other wonders and the same story repeated. I had to research many techs I could have traded with them.

    I made the wonder race a priority and have been pleased with the results so far. I only missed out on Sun Tzu to Spanish.

    One big regret is not building a shore city on the east coast sooner. After Mongols killed one of my two exploring warriors and bribed the other one away I somehow forgot about the importance of finding the shore and building a city there. My city there was founded in 1300. My first city in Spain was founded in 1520.

    War with Mongols went very slow and I wonder why. I razed one of their cities and bought another in 340 yet in 1000 they still had 5 cities. They were reduced to a single city with no capital in 1240 and will be kept around because they are my key civ.

    Per my plan I stayed in Monarchy till I switched to Democracy in 1260. I deliberately skipped Republic and I think it was a wise decision. I am in democracy now and plan to build Statue of Liberty soon and switch to celebrating fundy.

    There is little improvement left to be done in my continent that could be done by settlers before Railroad and farmland.
     
  5. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    May 29, 2002
    Messages:
    2,930
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    Date Notes

    -4000 One settler moves west revealing 5 more tiles which eliminate only 1 Resource seed. The other founds Kyoto for lack of a better thing to do. Warrior started.
    -3950 -> Alphabet
    -3500 Alphabet -> Code of Laws.
    -3350 Resource seed is 1 or 33. Capital has no specials.
    -2950 Resource seed is 1.
    -2750 Osaka founded.
    -2650 Code of Laws -> Ceremonial Burial.
    -2250 Edo founded.
    -2100 Ceremonial Burial -> Monarchy.

    Status at -2000
    Population: 0.05M; Cities: 3; Trade routes: 0D0F; Government: Despotism
    Gold: 13; Cost per turn: 0; Total advances: 4; Production: 8MT; 0 polluted tiles
    Wonders:
    Units: 2 Settlers (1 None), 2 Warriors
    Roman: No contact
    Viking: No contact
    Spanish: No contact
    Persian: No contact
    Mongol: No contact

    -1850 Satsuma founded on mountain. Edo will be the science city if there is going to be one.
    -1650 Monarchy -> Currency. Monarchy established. T3L0S7.
    -1400 Kagoshima founded. Two cities switch to wonder production.
    -1250 Currency -> Trade.
    -1000 Warrior runs into Mongols. Ceremonial Burial -> Mongol (1) -> peace. My power is moderate.

    Status at -1000
    Population: 0.13M; Cities: 5; Trade routes: 0D0F; Government: Monarchy
    Gold: 24; Cost per turn: 0; Total advances: 6; Production: 16MT; 0 polluted tiles
    Wonders:
    Units: 4 Settlers (1 None), 3 Warriors
    Roman: No contact
    Viking: No contact
    Spanish: No contact
    Persian: No contact
    Mongol: No embassy

    -0925 Trade -> Writing. Monarchy, Currency, Code of Laws -> Mongol (1) -> Mapmaking, Iron Working.
    -0875 Nara built on mountain.
    -0675 Writing -> Literacy.
    -0650 Nagoya founded.
    -0550 Izumo founded.
    -0500 Literacy -> Mysticism.

    Status at -500
    Population: 0.29M; Cities: 8; Trade routes: 0D0F; Government: Monarchy
    Gold: 12; Cost per turn: 0; Total advances: 11; Production: 27MT; 0 polluted tiles
    Wonders:
    Units: 4 Settlers (1 None), 7 Warriors
    Roman: No contact
    Viking: No contact
    Spanish: No contact
    Persian: No contact
    Mongol: No embassy

    -0325 Marco and Colossus built.
    Literacy, Monarchy, Currency, Trade -> Spanish (1) -> Mysticism, peace, maps
    Literacy, Mapmaking -> Viking (3) -> peace, maps
    Ceremonial Burial, Mapmaking -> Persian (4) -> peace, maps
    Iron Working, Mapmaking -> Roman (6) -> peace, maps
    Literacy, Mysticism, Writing, Trade -> Mongol (2) -> neutral attitude
    Romans have 6 techs they do not want to trade because they are trying to build Pyramids. T7L0S3
    -0300 -> Philosophy.
    -0275 Nagasaki founded.
    -0225 Philosophy -> Medicine -> Pottery
    -0200 Yokohama founded.
    -0100 Shimonoseki founded.
    -0025 Persians build Lighthouse.

    Status at +0001
    Population: 0.56M; Cities: 11; Trade routes: 0D0F; Government: Monarchy
    Gold: 178; Cost per turn: 1; Total advances: 14; Production: 38MT; 0 polluted tiles
    Wonders: Colossus, Marco
    Units: 7 Settlers (1 None), 14 Warriors, 1 Diplomat, 5 Caravans
    Roman: 7 cities, 18 techs
    Viking: 11 cities, 2 techs
    Spanish: 6 cities, 12 techs
    Persian: 12 cities, 3 techs; Lighthouse
    Mongol: 6 cities, 14 techs
     
  6. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    May 29, 2002
    Messages:
    2,930
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    +0020 Matsuyama founded.
    +0080 First offensive unit, a legion, produced. Sapporo founded.
    +0100 Pottery -> Seafaring. Hakodate founded.
    +0120 Spanish build Great Library. Romans finally agree to Knowledge exchange now that I already have Pottery and Spanish would automatically get it all.
    Philosophy, Mysticism->Roman (5) -> Bridge Building , Construction
    Vikings (3) demand 100g and declare war when I refuse. Persian (4) ignore my demand for tribute. T3L0S7
    +0140 Spanish build Oracle. I build Hanging Gardens in trade city of Edo. Mongol horseman shows up near size 1 undefended Matsuyama.
    +0160 Mongolhorseman spares Matsuyama.
    +0180 Mongol horseman razes Matsuyama for 3g and Construction, then dies in attack on my nearby settler.
    +0220 Ise founded where Matsuyama used to be.
    +0240 Mongols kill one of my front line warriors and bribe the other one away!
    +0260 Seafaring -> Horseback riding.
    +0300 T7L0S3
    +0320 Hides to Mongol Karakorum for 108 establishes the first trade route.
    +0340 Shakespeare built in trade city Edo which celebrates. Mongol Ormuz razed when Legion kills its defending Phalanx. Mongol Kabul bought for 206g. Got 29g, Horseback riding, 2 soldiers, and a settler. Accepted Mongol offer of 100g for cease fire and another 100g for peace.
    +0360 -> Wheel.
    +0420 Wheel -> Engineering. T3L0S7
    +0480 Mongols declare war over my demand for tribute.
    +0520 2 Mongol units killed in attack on my legions.
    +0540 Hides to Mongol Nishapur for 128.
    +0560 Mongols lose two more units attacking me. Engineering -> Invention. Phalanx defending Mongol Basra killed.
    +0580 Mongol horse kills my warrior fortified on rivered mountain. Mongol Basra razed. 3 legions lost in attack on Mongol settler on rivered mountain.
    +0620 Toyama founded.
    +0660 Khanbalyk bought for 80g. Got 8g, Polytheism, 2 warriors, and 2 settlers.
    +0700 Accepted Mongol offer of 250g for peace. Fukushima and Suo founded.
    +0720 Romans finally build Pyramids. Invention -> Gunpowder.
    +0740 Leo built.
    +0760 Mongols declare war over my demand for tribute. Lost two units in attack on Aleppo.
    +0860 Spanish build Sun Tzu. 5 legions attack Mongol Aleppo and after two casualties render the city defenseless. Settler takes the city for 12g, Warrior Code, and Barracks. Bizen3 founded.
    +0880 Mongol Phalanx on mountain bought for 112g.
    +0900 Echizen founded.
    +0920 Gunpowder -> Monotheism. Izumi3 founded.
    +0960 Omi3founded.

    Status at +1000
    Population: 2.09M; Cities: 24; Trade routes: 0D2F; Government: Monarchy
    Gold: 360; Cost per turn: 3; Total advances: 25; Production: 96MT; 0 polluted tiles
    Wonders: Colossus, Marco, Hanging Gardens, Shakespeare, Leo
    Units: 16 Settlers (1 None), 8 Warriors, 36 Musketeers, 4 Elephant, 4 Diplomats, 17 Caravans, 1 explorer
    Roman: 8 cities, 25 techs; Pyramids
    Viking: 21 cities, 2 techs
    Spanish: 9 cities, 21 techs; Great Library, Oracle, Sun Tzu
    Persian: 17 cities, 3 techs; Lighthouse
    Mongol: 5 cities, 20 techs

    +1020 Accepted 100g from Mongols for peace.
    +1040 Echigo5 founded. Mongols declared war over my demand for tribute. Two musketeers kill the 2 defenders of Tabriz and the city is taken for 4g.
    +1060 Domestic delivery for 16.
    +1080 Mongols kill 4 units on mountain near Karakorum.
    +1100 Monotheism ->Masonry. 4 defenders of Karakorum killed and the city taken for 12g. Mongol Bokhara bought for 336g. Got 15g, Barracks, and 3 soldiers. Accepted Mongold offer of 50g for cease fire.
    Invention, Warrior Code -> Roman (5) -> Banking, Masonry
    +1120 -> Democracy. Mongol Phalanx turned None bought for 42g. Mongol settler turned None bought for 168g.
    +1140 Michelangelo built. Domestic salt for 6.
    +1160 Romans build Great Wall. I build King Richard's. No wonders left to build. Domestic salt for 14.
    +1180 Gems to Mongol Nishapur for 42.
    +1220 Kozuke founded.
    +1240 Gems to Mongol Kashgar for 6. Finally collected enough to buy Mongol Nishapur for 424g. Got 11g, 3 soldiers, 1 settler, and a barracks. Mongols are down to one city and surrounded. Tech bombed Mongols.
    Gunpowder, Engineering -> Roman (5) -> Math, University, maps
    +1260 Democracy -> Chemistry. Democracy established. T3L3S4. Accepted Mongol offer of 50g for peace. Disbanded over a dozen musketeers.
    +1280 Most cities celebrate.
    +1300 Sado, my first east coast port city, founded.
    +1320 T6L3S1
    +1400 Mongol settler, turned None, bought for 168.
    +1440 Mongol elephant, turned None, bought for 84g.
    +1460 Mongol Catapult bought for 84g. T7L3S0
    +1480 Mongols sneak attack and kill their former catapult.
    +1500 Crusader kill Mongol archer.

    Status at +1500
    Population: 6.57M; Cities: 31; Trade routes: 12D1F; Government: Democracy
    Gold: 703; Cost per turn: 39; Total advances: 31; Production: 194MT; 0 polluted tiles
    Wonders: Colossus, Marco, Hanging Gardens, Shakespeare, Leo, Michelangelo, King Richard's
    Units: 21 Settlers (3 None), 16 Warriors, 19 Musketeers, 1 None elephant, 9 Crusaders, 2 Trireme, 4 Diplomat, 21 Caravans, 1 explorer
    Roman: 8 cities, 31 techs; Pyramids, Great Wall,
    Viking: 25 cities, 11 techs
    Spanish: 13 cities, 31 techs; Great Library, Oracle, Sun Tzu
    Persian: 20 cities, 11 techs; Lighthouse
    Mongol: 1 cities, 29 techs
     
  7. CharlieChuck

    CharlieChuck Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2007
    Messages:
    305
    Location:
    england
    Govt switch back to Monarchy was due to unhelpful senate. I was getting a tech every 7 turns at 70% science, not ideal for any long time but handy to finish off the persians. I changed to Demo after capturing Ergli.

    You finished nearly 50 turns earlier than Magic and I, so it must either be the boost you got from your westward advance or something you did 1500-1800 that we didn't. I remember losing time building a canal path through continent 3 (to left of persians)

    1600ad 50 cities (2 persian left, 1 on mainland) 15 sett 2 ellies 19 crus 48 vans, 33 techs (research theo, just got Demo), govt still monarchy, techs now every 5 turns Kyoto 162 beakers a turn, 9 wonders + isaacs, west city 286
    Changed to Demo between 1610-1630
    1710 Just about to buiild first city on continent 3, 55 cities (still 1 persian left, hidden on cont 3), Demo, Techs 4 turns at 40% science, 36 techs research medicene, 10 wonders + Leos, west city 281
    1770 64 cities, Demo, techs 3 turns at 40%, 45 techs, research chivalry, 24 engin 17 crus 74 vans, 12 wonders +Js & king rich,west city 250
    1800 67 cities 13,072 gold (nothing really to spend on), Demo, 56 techs research metall, now 5 turns at 40%, 26 engin 14 dragoons 6 spies 9 explorers 49 vans, 16 wonders, furthest city west 222 furthest unit west 177 at coast, nearest settler to coast 220

    I think I lost my way a bit between 1500-1700.
     
  8. Peaster

    Peaster Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2004
    Messages:
    1,295
    Sounds very reasonable ... I don't know the best answer for govts in this game, but if I played it again, I might go with Despotism - Monarchy - Republic [briefly] - Monarchy [celebrating] - Fundy.

    IMO it is best to get beakers mostly from trade, with the science bar set fairly low, but I seem to be in the minority on that.

    Well, I don't recall doing anything clever in 1500-1800. I just built up a tidal wave of crusaders, dips, vans, settlers [and eventually more advanced units] - to destroy the Viks/Romans without slowing down. Maybe ICS/big trade made this easier for me ? Dunno. The only major event in that period was getting to Espionage. Since spies could move 3, they got ahead of my wave, and speeded up my conquest a little. I was also very concerned with govt + RRs + engineers, but in hindsight, I think Spies were the key to that phase. Anyway, I assume most peoples' late game was similar to mine, and that any major differences came earlier.

    I also built 3 canal cities on the "island" just past Persia, which was a little inefficient, but not a big delay IMO.

    I thought we finished remarkably close; 50 turns isn't a huge gap in such a long game. I think most of that came from pushing steadily Westward in the early game; building a western port, and invading Spain ASAP. But I didn't feel confident that I was doing it properly [I had to wait too long for mapmaking, for example] and I still have doubts about doing size one twice, etc. As MG mentioned, bypassing helped. Also, I always RB'd as much as possible in my most western cities, to help keep the front moving - but I guess everyone did that.

    @Ali: Good luck [and don't forget to Go West]. Your games are always a mystery to me - even with your very detailed logs, I can never decipher your overall plans, and yet you do extremely well.
     
  9. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    May 29, 2002
    Messages:
    2,930
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    Ironically, I can say the exact same thing about your games. Your speed even in the early game where there should not be all that much difference amazes me.

    I now have 3 cities in Spain, 2 built, one bribed right before they switched to Democracy. My bottleneck right now is lack of enough ships to move units across fast enough. I have a ton of units waiting to move and only 3 triremes due to lack of enough port cities. My biggest regret now is that I did not build that port city earlier. Next turn I will get Navigation and with auto upgrade from Leo I should get a 50% capacity increase.

    I have started to trade with Spain and despite not having what they demand caravans coming from large east coast cities bring several hundred (it think max was 580). One caravan is bypassing Spain for Persia.

    I built Statue of Liberty a few turns ago having to rush buy the last 10 shields to beat Romans to it. Now I am debating how long I should stay in Democracy for growth and science. My trade city just maxed out (no refrigeration yet) and my eastern cities are about to.
     
  10. Peaster

    Peaster Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2004
    Messages:
    1,295
    Usually, about 90% of my early strategy is straight out of DaveV's guide to ICS. It seems some other GOTM players are ICSing too, and are getting similar early growth.

    BTW - Did other players use the size 1 trick in this GOTM ? I used it twice ... not sure about best play on that.
    I'll be watching - it seems most players so far have focused on going West ASAP. I think you have focused more on Civ-building, hoping for a later, but faster, push [?]. So, your results could be interesting.
     
  11. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    May 29, 2002
    Messages:
    2,930
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    This was the reign of democracy. Major developments were discovery of explosives which led to Leo making my 20 or so settlers into Engineers. Major terrain improvement in home continent. Two crucial wonders were built in this period: Bach and Statue of Liberty. I started building cities in the Spanish continent and trading with the Spanish.

    +1510 Shanjan founded. T2L3S5
    +1520 Chemistry -> Explosives. Chemistry -> Spanish (5). Medicine -> Roman (4) -> Astronomy. Domestic Gems for 66. Gibraltar, the first city in Spain, founded. Spanish Avila subverted for 2x91g. Got 18g and got stuck with Feudalism.
    +1530 Offered peace to Mongols and tech bombed them. T0L3S7
    +1540 Explosives -> Sanitation. T2L3S5
    +1550 Cunaxa founded. Domestic Beads for 28.
    +1570 Copernicus built. Sanitation -> Theology.
    +1580 Khanbalyk disbanded to allow neighboring cities to grow.
    +1590 Khoy founded.
    +1600 Theology -> Metallurgy.
    +1610 Cannae founded in Spain.
    +1620 Had to buy 7 shields to beat Romans to Statue of Liberty .
    +1630 Metallurgy -> Conscription. Statue of Liberty built.
    +1640 Trade city of Edo maxes out at 17. Undemanded Silver establishes the first overseas trade route for 180.
    +1650 Conscription -> Economics. Undemanded Silver from trade city to Madrid for 580.
    +1660 Economics -> Navigation. Romans have Navigation but will not trade due to Magellan. Undemanded Silk to Madrid for 162.
    +1670 Undemanded silver from Kyoto to Madrid for 378.
    +1680 Navigation -> Physics. Bach built. T0L4S6 for a final push of science and growth before the clergy take over.
    +1700 Physics -> Magnetism.
    +1710 Capua founded in Spain near Madrid.
    +1720 Magnetism -> Steam Engine. T1L2S7. All but 3 cities would have stopped celebrating anyway and two of them can go on at 20% lux.
    +1730 Beads to Barcelona for 284. I was ready to change governments and attack but wisely I spent a diplomat and checked the status of Seville. It is defended by 2 musketeers likely to be vets (they have Sun Tzu) behind city walls. My 5 crusaders only one of which is vet are no match for these. I have to wait till I bring more units over. T0L2S8
    +1740 Steam Engine -> Railroad. Gems to Spanish for 372. Dye to Spanish for 208.
    +1750 Railroad -> Electricity.

    Status at +1750
    Population: 15.5M; Cities: 37; Trade routes: 17D7F; Government: Democracy
    Gold: 173; Cost per turn: 105; Total advances: 45; Production: 282MT; 0 polluted tiles
    Wonders: Colossus, Marco, Hanging Gardens, Shakespeare, Leo, Michelangelo, King Richard's, Copernicus, Statue of Liberty, Bach
    Units: 20 Engineers (3 None), 31 Riflemen, 16 Crusaders, 5 Cannon, 4 Galleon, 12 Diplomat, 35 Caravans, 1 explorer
    Roman: 10 cities, 34 techs; Pyramids, Great Wall,
    Viking: 27 cities, 14 techs
    Spanish: 13 cities, 37 techs; Great Library, Oracle, Sun Tzu
    Persian: 20 cities, 17 techs; Lighthouse
    Mongol: 1 cities, 33 techs
     
  12. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    May 29, 2002
    Messages:
    2,930
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    Switch from Democracy to Fundamentalism and major war with Spanish and later Persians characterize this era. Shortly after losing a few cities Spanish switch to democracy and make my progress quite slow. Thankfully Persians stayed away from democracy. I have had only one major set back so far in my military campaign so far and that was when Persians bought back a recently bribed city. I had a long column of cavalry, cannons, and freight next to it all of which were lost. I immediately bribed the city back but lost half a dozen units in the process most regrettably freight that had traveled from the other side of the world and could not be replaced in a timely manner.

    Other major event in this era was discovery of railroad and building of massive rail networks both in home continent and Spain.

    +1752 Electricity -> Refrigeration. Copper to Spanish for 224. With Great Library obsolete I tech bombed Mongols to reduce research cost.
    +1754 Spanish drop out of democracy, sneak attack, and kill a rifleman as I have massed over a dozen units on Madrid. 2 Spanish units killed. Madrid has 5 Musketeers behind City walls. Diplomats start a campaign of industrial sabotage on Madrid destroying its temple, musketeer production, and marketplace before I run out of diplomats. Looks like the attack has to wait another turn. T7L2S1
    +1756 All rivals unite against me despite my good relations with Persians and Romans. Refrigeration -> Chivalry. Adam Smith built. Second campaign of Sabotage on Madrid results in loss of production and finally the destruction of city walls. Attack on Madrid starts with 2 Cannons and continues with a multitude of crusaders. After the loss of one cannon and 4 Crusaders, the 6 defenders of Madrid are killed and the city is taken for Sun Tzu, 59g, Chivalry, Oracle, and Aqueduct. Senate immediately hand the Spanish a cease fire. Time to bring in the clergy. Revolution started. Spanish Valladolid bought for 505. Got 55g, 2 units, and 3 structures.
    +1758 Spanish kill a caravan. Fundamentalism established. T1L8S1. 3 units lost in attack on Spanish. Spanish have switched back to Democracy. Three attempts of Industrial sabotage on Seville takes down the city walls. Killing the 3 musketeers defending the city still costs 3 crusaders. The city is taken for 61g.
    +1760 -> Leadership. Spanish are back in Monarchy. Salamanca bought for 712g.Got 92g, 4 soldiers, and 5 structures. T5L4S1
    +1762 Spanish establish a new capital. Romans build Magellan. Undemanded caravans to Spain for 43, 40.
    +1764 Two Persian warriors die in attack on my caravan.
    +1766 Spanish Valencia captured at the expense of two Crusaders. Got 74g, Great Library, and 3 structures. Undemanded delivery to Spain from trade city for 400.
    +1768 First Supermarket built. Bilbao bought for 249g. Got 28g and a soldier. Domestic offshore deliveries for 200, 68, 38, 27, 48, 52. Tech bombed Mongols.
    +1770 Persian elephant killed in attack on my caravan. Leadership -> Tactics. Undemanded deliveries to Spain for 146 and Persians for 514. Coal to Spanish Barcelona for 280.
    +1772 First pollution appears near trade city. Undemanded deliveries to Spain for 59, 68. T3L4S3
    +1774 Tactics -> Industrialization. Tabriz relocated to take better advantage of terrain. T6L4S0 in anticipation of Darwin next turn. Gave away railroad to Romans who became worshipful and then when I demanded tribute declared war. Vikings and Persians wanted money just to talk to me. Spain has switched back to Democracy. Killed 2 Spanish units.
    +1776 Darwin built. Industrialization -> Corporation -> Genetic Engineering. T5L4S1. Cadiz captured for 59g and Granary. Silk to Spain for 540. Coal to Mongols for 157. Domestic offshore Spice for 248. Genoa founded in Spain.
    +1778 Undemanded delivery to Spain for 100.
    +1780 Spanish kill a Freight. New Spanish capital of Pamplona captured for 14g and marketplace. Undemanded delivery to Spain for 308. Crete founded in Spain.
    +1782 Genetic Engineering -> Steel. Undemanded deliveries to Spain for 186, 312. Domestic offshore deliveries for 67, 119, 75.
    +1784 Spanish Vigo captured for 37g. Now I am at the Persian border.
    +1786 Persians kill a freight. Undemanded deliveries to Persia and Spain for 156, 242, 96. Persian Herat bought for 745. Got 90g, 2 units, and 2 structures. Persian diplomat bought for 208g.
    +1788 Steel -> Machine Tools. Herat survives Persian elephant. Cure for Cancer built. Domestic Dye for 82. Undemanded deliveries for 107. Persian elephant bought for 278g. Persian Jinjan bought for 1160. Got 141g, 4 units, and 3 structures. Persian settler bought for 528 (now None). Persian Borazjan bought for 685. Got 81g, 3 units, and 2 structures.
    +1790 Persian diplomat bought for 190g. Undemanded deliveries for 66, 92. Persian settler bought for 508 to make a city.
    +1792 Kabul relocated to take better advantage of terrain. Domestic Silver for 70. Barcelona taken for 99g and city walls. Persian Zohak bought for 1048g. Got 136g, 7 units, and 3 structures. Verona founded in western Spain.
    +1794 Persians bribe Herat back and also take Railroad. Many units next to the city disappear and then reappear as Persian units. The new Persian Cavalry kill a diplomat and a freight. Hert bribed one more time for 166g. Got 42g, 3 structures (same as before) and 5 units, 4 of which were my own Cavalry. Still lost many units including some valuable freight. Granada taken for 53g and 3 structures. Persian Cannon bought for 202g. Domestic deliveries for 422, 104, 116.
    +1796 Machine Tools -> Communism. After losing 3 units Persian Istakhr bought for 436g. Got 53g, 6 units, and 3 structures. Persian Ghulaman bought for 535g. Got 63g, 2 units, and 3 structures. Persian Settler bought for 380g. Domestic Oil, Spice for 226, 234. Undemanded deliveries for 98, 116, 145.
    +1798 Undemanded deliveries for 174. Domestic Copper for 242.
    +1800 Communism -> Espionage. Undemanded deliveries for 160, 72. Domestic Spice for 272. Dariush Kabir bought for 910g. Got 90g, 2 units, and 3 structures. Sidon bought for 620g. Got 58g, 2 units, and 2 structures.

    Status at +1800
    Population: 19.7M; Cities: 59; Trade routes: 105D8F; Government: Fundamentalism
    Gold: 4001; Cost per turn: 256; Total advances: 56; Production: 395MT; 0 polluted tiles
    Wonders: Colossus, Marco, Hanging Gardens, Shakespeare, Leo, Michelangelo, King Richard's, Copernicus, Statue of Liberty, Bach, Great Library, Oracle, Sun Tzu, Adam Smith, Darwin, Cure for Cancer
    Units: 25 Engineers (4 None), 2 Phalanx, 5 Musketeers, 2 Alpine, 43 Riflemen, 30 Cavalry, 12 Artillery, 4 Transports, 17 Diplomat, 35 Freight, 1 explorer
    (Rival status in 1798 before loss of Marco)
    Roman: 10 cities, 38 techs; Pyramids, Great Wall, Magellan
    Viking: 27 cities, 24 techs
    Spanish: 2 cities, 37 techs;
    Persian: 14 cities, 26 techs; Lighthouse
    Mongol: 1 cities, 55 techs
     
  13. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    May 29, 2002
    Messages:
    2,930
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    In this era I took over the rest of Persia, built 2 canal cities in the wasteland west of Persia, and landed on continent 4. Having seen some units there from map exchange with Persians long before, I expected to see cities there and was surprised there was nothing there. Vikings had a city on the west side (but not on the coast) which I bribed in 1850. Discovery of Espionage early in this era and Radio later in the era were remarkable tech advances. I embarked on a huge campaign of building airports helped by a treasury which went over 10K in 1826.

    +1802 Persian Tyre bought for 1068g. Got 75g, 3 units, and 3 structures. Undemanded deliveries for 75, 81, 168, 215, 73, 126, 89.
    +1804 Espionage -> Refining. UN built. Persian settler bribed for 388. Persian Cannon bought for 360. Persian Susa bought for 475g. Spy turned vet. Got 24g, a Phalanx, and barracks. Domestic Oil for 336. Undemanded Oil for 320.
    +1806 Domestic deliveries for 38, 308. Saragossa captured for 176g and 2 structures.
    +1808 Persians take Susa back despite me having a Spy there. Luckily they take Industrialization and not espionage, tactics, or democracy. Susa bribed back for 71g. Spy turned vet. Got 9g, a structure, and 4 units but not my spy back or my freight back. Persian Phalanx and Elephant bought for 423 and 634. Persian Gordium bought for 1085g. Spy turned vet. Got 53g, 2 units, and 2 structures. Spanish Malaga captured for 63g. Spanish civilization destroyed. Undemanded deliveries for 162.
    +1810 Refining -> Combustion. Persian Antioch bought for 484. Vet Spy lost. Got 53g, 2 units, and 2 structures. Undemanded deliveries for 94, 72.
    +1812 Persian settler, turned None, bought for 256g. Persian Samaria bought for 365g. Spy turned vet. Got 53g, 3 structures, 2 soldiers, and a caravel! Persian settler for 244g. Silk to Persian Bactra for 690 (highest pay out so far). Undemanded deliveries for 174, 153, 205.
    +1814 Combustion -> Theory of Gravity. Undemanded deliveries for 74, 111.
    +1816 CanalEast founded between Persia and Scandinavia. Undemanded deliveries for 75, 361, 184.
    +1818 CannalWest founded. Persian Dakyanus , near canal cities, bought for 184g. Spy survived. Got 30g, barracks, and a unit. Undemanded deliveries for 93, 186.
    +1820 Theory of Gravity -> Flight. Domestic Silk for 444. Undemanded deliveries for 82.
    +1826 Viking warrior bought for 38g. Domestic Silk for 522. For the first time my treasury went above 10K.
    +1828 Flight -> Radio. Newton built. Copper to Persians for 515. Domestic Silk for 352. Persian musketeer bought for 138g. Undemanded deliveries for 111, 57, 91, 71.
    +1830 Persepolis founded at the western edge of Persia. Spice to Persians for 44. Undemanded deliveries for 92, 31.
    +1832 Radio -> Advanced Flight. Undemanded deliveries for 214, 131, 175, 126, 134, 132. Persian Bactra bought for 800g. Spy turned vet. Got 69g, 3 structures, and 2 units. Salzburg founded in Western Spain.
    +1834 Gems to Persians for 62.
    +1836 Undemanded deliveries for 166. Spice, Silk to Persians for 28, 54. Persian musketeer for 133g. Persian Ergili bought for 376g. Spy escaped. Got 63g, 2 units, and 2 structures.
    +1838 Advanced Flight -> Electronics. Bergen founded in Spain. Undemanded deliveries for 147.
    +1840 Viking warrior bribed for 41g. Undemanded deliveries for 190, 128, 30. Venice founded on the eastern shore of Scandinavia.
    +1842 Vikings build Suffrage. Deliveries for 284, 122, 18. Persian settler, turned None, bought for 268g.
    +1844 Deliveries for 91, 126.
    +1846 Electronics -> Rocketry. Milan founded in eastern Scandinavia. Deliveries for 36, 26.
    +1848 Deliveries for 34, 35, 141, 162. Persian settler, turned None, bought for 264g.
    +1850 Finally ran into first Viking city. Fyrkat bought for 167g. Spy captured. Got 9g, Republic, 2 units, and 3 structures. Viking horseman bought for 91g. Deliveries for 66, 344.

    Status at +1850
    Population: 28.1M; Cities: 77; Trade routes: Full-26; Government: Fundamentalism
    Gold: 14022; Cost per turn: 601; Total advances: 65; Production: 529MT; 0 polluted tiles
    Wonders: 18
    Units: 1 None Settler, 31 Engineers (6 None), 1 Phalanx, 2 Musketeers, 4 Alpine, 68 Riflemen, 1 Horseman, 36 Cavalry, 14 Artillery, 8 Transports, 21 Spies, 63 Freight, 2 explorers

    Roman: 11 cities, 42 techs; Pyramids, Great Wall, Magellan
    Viking: 28 cities, 39 techs; Suffrage
    Spanish: Destroyed by me
    Persian: 4 cities, 28 techs; Lighthouse
    Mongol: 1 cities, 59 techs
     
  14. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    May 29, 2002
    Messages:
    2,930
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    After bribing their one and only city in continent 4 in 1850, I quickly reached the coast in 1853 and discovered 3 of their ships: a trireme, a frigate, and a transport. Only the trireme was empty and was bribed, loaded, and taken away. The Frigate could have caught up with it and sank it, setting me back several turns, but it did not. I made sure there is a tech discovery next turn to upgrade the ship. In 1854 the viking transport unloaded too and was bribed away. Same turn I built a city on the west coast of continent 4 using an engineer flown in from mainland to an airport built overnight in the tiny viking city I bribed in 1850.

    The first Viking city on continent 1 was bribed for 1108 in 1855. The Viking capital turned out to be closeby. As I was bringing forces over I bribed three more nearby cities at the costs of 1K, 2K, and 4K. Viking capital fell in 1859 but was quickly rebuilt in the east. From this point on I was bribing some and capturing a few till I discovered Combined Arms in 1865. The introduction of paratroopers to my air force extended my reach beyond that of my spies and allowed me to capture 2-3 Viking cities each turn with the last one in 1871.

    Romans have 11 cities. One that I have by passed and ten in front of me. My current Western location is 67.

    At this pace I expect to be done in late 1870s or early 1880s.
     
  15. Peaster

    Peaster Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2004
    Messages:
    1,295
    Very interesting. Thanks for the verbal descriptions. I thought you had delayed your westwards push too long, but now you seem to be moving very fast. Can you describe briefly how you use the paratroopers to conquer quickly ? I've rarely used them and forget exactly how they work ... IIRC you want them to start their turn in a city, so they can "jump" about 10 tiles ... and then they can attack in the same turn [or do you attack mainly with planes]? Anyway, I guess that after emptying the AI city, you move more paratoopers in, to repeat the process next turn. So, you can push forward at almost 10 tiles per turn, even faster than spies on rivers ?

    If I got your method right, it could form the basis for best strategy in GOTM 108.1) Use ICS, SSC, Big Trade, or whatever to race towards Combined Arms ASAP. 2) Make a swarm of paratroopers, [maybe suppported or followed by planes, engineers, RRs, spies, etc] to push West at almost 10 tiles per turn. 3) Bypass some AI cities, if necessary, to keep the front moving towards Rome. 4) Conquer the bypassed cities later with spies/etc. Do you think this would work ?

    One problem might be a big gap between AI civs, for example 30 tiles between the Persian and Vikings, with no cities there to support the paratroopers. I guess this would slow down the conquest quite a bit ? You'd have to wait for your engineers to catch up and build cities [or airbases?] ... or march the paratroopers along slowly ? Or am I missing some tricks with modern units that would solve this problem ?
     
  16. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    May 29, 2002
    Messages:
    2,930
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    You are not as rusty as you think. That is exactly the method. You attack with vet Fighters who can travel 10 tiles (in any direction including over water) per turn and empty the city. Then your paratrooper drops in and takes the city. Spies on rivers can go 9 tiles per turn but they have to follow the bend of the river and in this game the bends are so twisted that for slower units scaling the mountains is sometimes faster.
    It would except that given the terrain it would have been impossible to grow fast without taking out the Mongols and very difficult without taking out the Spanish.
    Again you are right with one minor exception. Planes need to park at cities (or airfields) and thus are restricted to how fast the engineers move. Paratroopers can only paradrop starting from a city and are otherwise a slow 1 tile per turn unit.

    The minor exception are helicopters, which also come with combined arms. There is no preset limit on how far a helicopter can stay in the air except that it loses health as it does and would eventually die of exhaustion. Furthermore, helicopters are the one air unit which can actually occupy a city. So the only other way to scale continent 4 would have been to send a bunch of helicopters across it. Given how long that continent is and that helicopters go only 6 tiles per turn it is doubtful the arriving fleet would be in any shape to take a city. It is worth an experiment though. Once you establish a beach head on another continent you can build an airport and slowly send troops (one per turn per airport).
     
  17. Peaster

    Peaster Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2004
    Messages:
    1,295
    Yes, it seems continent 4 would be a problem for that plan, the way I stated it. Maybe it'd be best to get Combined Arms at about the time you finish crossing 4 with engineers [probably not stopping to make RRs]. Then try to finish fast, mostly with paratroopers and planes.

    But this is pretty theoretical. I got Combined Arms too late in my game to make a difference. I probably could not have gotten it much earlier, without a major change in game plan, almost from the start. And for me, the flow of this game was hard to foresee that early. So, I guess it's fair to say we did well. I can't find any plan for EC in GOTM 108 much better than what we did.
     
  18. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

    Joined:
    May 29, 2002
    Messages:
    2,930
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    Roman musketeers were no match for my nearly 20 fighter planes. The only reason it took 6 turns to defeat them was geography. As with the latter part of the Viking campaign, my fighters rendered a city defenseless and my paratroopers walked in.

    Mongols single city was taken out right after Rome to finish the game.

    My major regret in this game:
    1. Not establishing a city on my home continent's western shore sooner.
    2. Not disbanding my artillery and cavalry after the Spanish campaign. Persians and eastern Vikings were defeated with spies, the rest with fighter planes. The keeping of the cavalry and artillery (even though I had less than 50 total of both together which is less than what others have reported) wasted a significant portion of my real time.

    This was a fun game but it took too much real time. Having missed the gauntlet (I actually did play it but decided to be isolationist and win by landing which I did) I really wanted to do this one.

    Thank you Magic for the brilliant map and thanks for the extension without which it would have been impossible for me to finish.
     

Share This Page