GOTM 110 Spoiler

[Ali Ardavan]

Unfortunately I have been out of town too much recently and was unable to finish this game. Right before my most recent trip I made a an effort to finish and only got as far as building Apollo. I will not be back home before July 20th which is 2 days after the deadline. May I please have an extra few days to finish and turn this in?

I got to space flight in 940, and discovered both Plastics and Superconductor in 960. I also built the Apollo in 960. With few precharged cities, only a handful of available vans, and a 3 digit treasury launching in 980 is out of the question. Launching in 1000 is dubious. But I am confident I can launch before 1100.

This means that Peaster's 980 launch beats me and most likely every one else's for the green star. Given that the goal of this GOTM was the earliest landing, regardless of the final GOTM score, Peaster wins. Since all along we had a similar number of cities it was not ICS that contributed to his win. This leads me to the conclusion that massive trade is what brought about this outcome. He delivered far more vans per turn than I did. I managed to keep up with the science because I had larger cities with more infrastructure but now I lack the massive funds he used to build a space ship with.

This conclusion about the decisive role of massive trade is more dramatic once you realize that I had a fully functional science city and he did not. I had stellar foreign relations (I am not just at peace with all my rivals, they are all enthusiastic or cordial) and he did not. Both of these are considered essential for early landing.

I have always known that trade is most powerful aspect of Civ2 but I guess this GOTM shows that trade is so powerful that if you get it right you come out ahead even if you screw up some other aspects of the game.

 

[Magic_gorter]

I give one week extra for everybody who still wants to submit.

 

[Peaster]

Since all along we had a similar number of cities it was not ICS that contributed to his win. This leads me to the conclusion that massive trade is what brought about this outcome. He delivered far more vans per turn than I did. I managed to keep up with the science because I had larger cities with more infrastructure but now I lack the massive funds he used to build a space ship with.

This conclusion about the decisive role of massive trade is more dramatic once you realize that I had a fully functional science city and he did not. I had stellar foreign relations (I am not just at peace with all my rivals, they are all enthusiastic or cordial) and he did not. Both of these are considered essential for early landing.

I have always known that trade is most powerful aspect of Civ2 but I guess this GOTM shows that trade is so powerful that if you get it right you come out ahead even if you screw up some other aspects of the game.

I also just got back from a long trip. I agree with most of your conclusions, though the difference in our landing dates seems insignificant to me. You made fewer big mistakes, but I made Trade work for me and we balanced out. Both our games show the value of rapid growth thru ICS and/or Big Trade. As far as I can tell from their logs, the Old Masters (solo, zenon, etc) used Big Trade routinely, without much mention of it, and added ICS to the mix in some of their last games. So, we all seem to be converging to approx the same views.

I'm not sure we've "solved EL" yet, but it seems clearer now. ICS/Trade is a good formula, and I think we mostly agree on govts, and on a full SSC. We could discuss the best ways to implement all this some more [Xinning? zenon's very-early SSC plan?], but maybe people are tired of EL ??

Did Magic finish yet ?

 

[Magic_gorter]

Still need to finish the last turns. Spaceship was launched 1.5 months ago but I still didn't finish. Had a lot to do at work before my holiday and today is the last day of my holiday......

I finish tomorow and will post a log then.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

In this period I stopped my rapid expansion despite the presence of plenty of good city sites. I concentrated on trade, research (got a lot of 2 techs per turn), and wonder building. I managed to keep the peace with all my rivals to the very end. I never fought any rival at any point during the entire game. I built Apollo before 1000 but was too poor to launch a ship right away. I should have slowed down research in favor of taxes a little earlier than I did. Had I done that I could have launched a few turns earlier.

I had only one functional ship chain (to Vikings and later Zulu) but near the end it was not as active as it should have been. I was too concentrated on the quality of my trade (demanded goods and establishing a trade route) instead of its quantity.

+0520 Zulu build Lighthouse. Magnetism -> Chivalry -> Electricity. 50g from hut. No longer demanded Wine to Persian Persepolis for 148. T1L2S7
+0540 Electricity -> Leadership. Astara founded. Domestic offshore Coal for 112. Gems to Carthaginians for 150.
+0560 Leadership -> Refrigeration. Salt to Vikings for 240. Deliveries to Persians for 260, 354. Domestic Spice for 78.
+0580 Refrigeration -> Conscription.
+0600 Conscription -> Steam Engine. Bach built. Domestic offshore Gold for 174. Delivery to Carthage for 168. Beads to Vikings for 328. Conscription -> Persian -> Steam Engine. ShahrLor founded.
+0620 ->Tactics -> Railroad . Shaahi founded. T7L2S1
+0640 Railroad -> Amphibious Warfare. Five barbarian Knights from hut; explorer escapes. Delivery to Vikings for 174, to Moscow for 168, to Sioux for 150. T1L2S7
+0660 Amphibious Warfare -> Industrialization. Tactics -> Vikings -> Industrialization. Domestic Silk for 236. Gold to Vikings for 352, 44. Coal to Sioux for 160.
+0680 -> Corporation -> Genetic Engineering. Musketeer from hut. Wine to Vikings from SSC for 985. T0L2S8
+0700 Genetic Engineering -> Refining -> Steel. Teo (second oldest city) disbanded. Domestic offshore deliveries for 60, 147. 50g from polar hut. T1L2S7
+0720 Steel -> Combustion. Rifleman from hut. Domestic Wine for 250. Deliveries to Zulu for 176, 156.
+0740 Combustion -> Automobile. Domestic delivery for 106, 105. Delivery to Carthaginians for 122. Jahrom founded. T3L2S5
+0760 Automobile -> Machine Tools. Cure for Cancer built. 25g from hut. Deliveries to Zulu for 522. Chiconautla founded. T3L3S4. Wide spread celebrations follow.
+0780 Machine Tools -> Mass Production. Deliveries to Zulu for 212, 140; to Persian for 396, 324; to Sioux for 366. T0L3S7
+0800 Mass Production -> Electronics -> Miniaturization. 50g from polar hut. Deliveries to Persians for 354, 325; to Vikings for 480; to Sioux for 260, 400. T1L3S6
+0820 Miniaturization -> Recycling -> Computers. Deliveries to Vikings for 290, 385, 128; to Sioux for 192, 184; to Persians for 114; domestic for 94, 369. Siyaahkal founded.
+0840 Computers -> Nuclear Fission -> Nuclear Power. Deliveries to Zulu for 258, 288; domestic for 177, 118, 82.
+0860 Nuclear Power -> Flight. Deliveries to Sioux for 360, 290; domestic for 252.
+0880 Flight -> Laser -> Radio. Deliveries to Zulu for 198; domestic for 70, 90, 104, 97, 264. AbuMusa founded.
+0900 Radio -> Advanced Flight. Deliveries to Zulu for 267; to Sioux for 80; to Persians for 124, 110, 112. Abskun founded.
+0920 Advanced Flight -> Rocketry -> Mobile Warfare. SETI built. First pollution appears. 50g from polar hut. Deliveries to Zulu for 155, 368; to Persians for 190, 230; domestic for 91, 182.
+0940 Mobile Warfare -> Space Flight -> Plastics. Domestic deliveries for 392, 282, 192.
+0960 Plastics -> Superconductor -> Communism. Apollo built. Advanced Flight -> Russian (2) -> Communism. Deliveries to Zulu for 104; to Carthaginians for 142. T5L3S2
+0980 -> Fusion Power. Science city maxes out at size 35. Deliveries to Carthaginians for 200, 144; domestic for 91. Teo founded.
+1000 Space race starts. Fusion Power -> Espionage. Advanced tribe founds Balk of size 4 with temple and marketplace. T6L3S1

Status at +1000
Population: 43.3M; Cities: 65; Trade routes: 55D75F; Government: Democracy
Gold: 20; Cost per turn: 225; Total advances: 80; Production: 481MT; 1 polluted tiles
Wonders: Marco, Hanging Gardens, Colossus, Michelangelo, Copernicus, Shakespeare, Leo, Newton, Magellan, Bach, Cure, SETI, Apollo
Russian: No embassy; Sun Tzu
Zulu: No embassy; Pyramids, Lighthouse
Viking: No embassy; Great Library
Persian: No embassy; King Richard's
Carthaginian: No embassy; War with Sioux
Sioux: No embassy; War with Carthaginians

+1020 Domestic delivery for 355.
+1040 Sioux build Darwin. Espionage -> Combined Arms. Delivery to Zulu for 62. 50g from polar hut. BandarLenge founded.
+1060 Delivery to Carthaginians for 164; domestic for 572. Rifleman from hut.
+1080 Combined Arms -> Future Tech 1. 17s4c1m space ship launched. Deliveries to Russians for 54; domestic for 194. T1L3S6.
+1081 Future Tech 1-> 2. BandarAbbas and AmirKola founded. Delivery to Russians for 168.
+1082 Future Tech 2 -> Environmentalism -> Future Tech 3. Tangestaan founded. Domestic deliveries for 162, 121, 240, 146; to Persians for 110.
+1083 Future Tech 3 -> 4. Delivery to Russians for 240.
+1084 Future Tech 4 -> Guerrilla Warfare -> Future Tech 5. BandarGonaveh founded. T2L3S5.
+1085 Persians build Statue of Liberty. Future Tech 5 -> 6. Domestic delivery for 62. Harat and Tabriz founded. Delivery to Carthaginians for 144.
+1086 Future Tech 6 -> Robotics. Adam Smith built. Delivery to Carthaginians for 203; to Russians for 187; to Zulu for 280, 259. Superconductor -> Sioux -> Robotics.
+1087 -> Future Tech 7 -> 8. Eiffel built. 100g from hut.
+1088 Future Tech 8 -> Labor Union. 200g from hut. Delivery to Zulu for 458.
+1089 Labor Union -> Future Tech 9. Hoover dam built. 100g from hut. Domestic delivery for 140. Coatepec founded.
+1090 Future Tech 9 -> 10. Sangestaan founded. Advanced tribe founds Lahore of size 3 with 3 structures.
+1091 Future Tech 10 -> Fundamentalism -> Future Tech 11. Domestic silver for 118, 210, 347, 522, 119; to Vikings for 94; to Persians for 108. Ahvaz founded. T0L3S7.
+1092 Future Tech 11 -> 12. UN, Oracle, and Great Wall built. Daryakenar , Rudestaan, andEndgame1-2 founded. Delivery to Sioux for 74; domestic 24, 18, 28, 64. 50g from hut. T0L10S0

 

[Magic_gorter]

I also finished the game. Landed in 1135 AD. I still had not enough time to see if my log needs extra data. As soon as I did that I will post it.

 

[Peaster]

Not much time at the moment, but some quick notes...

@Ali: looks like a nice game to me. It took you about 4 turns to build a ship, but IMO "that's nothing" (meaning that none of us have perfected EL play yet, and many of our mistakes cost more than 4 turns). Flight time of 12 turns might be more worthy of study, if you care about that.

I was expecting you to achieve some 2adv turns with your big Demo govt in the 600AD-1000AD period. Why not ? At first glance, your trade bonuses were large enough that you were making a profit, so you could've grown your trade system ... no ? Well, it's not that easy, I guess.

Were you intentionally aiming for bigger bonuses this time than usual ?

@Magic: Nice finish ! For some reason, I had imagined that you were farther behind, but I will take a closer look at your log when I get a chance. Did you make any conclusions about ICS or trade bonuses ?

 

[Ali Ardavan]

Flight time of 12 turns might be more worthy of study, if you care about that.

I am not sure what you mean.

I was expecting you to achieve some 2adv turns with your big Demo govt in the 600AD-1000AD period. Why not ? At first glance, your trade bonuses were large enough that you were making a profit, so you could've grown your trade system ... no ? Well, it's not that easy, I guess.

I did achieve quite a few 2adv turns starting in 700. Did you mean 2 advances from cities alone?

Were you intentionally aiming for bigger bonuses this time than usual ?

I always aim for bigger bonuses. Trade-wise I did two things differently in this game. One was a dedicated full ship chain to Vikings and later Zulu. Typically my ship chains are neither full nor dedicated (when there are no vans to deliver I send them off doing other things). That was the case for my ships delivering to Carthaginian/Sioux and to Persians. The second thing I did differently was managing the routes of my science city: whenever I had a route to a domestic city from the SSC, I would minimize the trade in that city before making a delivery to/from SSC. Using this technic I never had more than 1 out 3 trade routes of SSC be domestic.

 

[Peaster]

I am not sure what you mean.

Since the fastest ship takes 5 turns, and yours took 12, it is possible that you "lost 7 turns" this way. I don't know how many turns it would've taken you to build the faster ship; in my big-civ games, it doesn't take long at all. Also, I'm not 100% sure if you were playing for minimal turns [the gotm criteria] or for date [as apolyton].

I did achieve quite a few 2adv turns starting in 700. Did you mean 2 advances from cities alone?

No, I was in a hurry and just missed your 2's.

I always aim for bigger bonuses. Trade-wise I did two things differently in this game. One was a dedicated full ship chain to Vikings and later Zulu. Typically my ship chains are neither full nor dedicated (when there are no vans to deliver I send them off doing other things). That was the case for my ships delivering to Carthaginian/Sioux and to Persians. The second thing I did differently was managing the routes of my science city: whenever I had a route to a domestic city from the SSC, I would minimize the trade in that city before making a delivery to/from SSC. Using this technic I never had more than 1 out 3 trade routes of SSC be domestic.

We've had some talks in other threads about small bonuses [under 65g] and I thought you felt they were OK. A quick glance at your log, and I thought I saw fewer small ones this time than your other gotms. So, I'm wondering if you did that on purpose, or maybe I'm imagining it.

Also, I've noticed that you count domestic / foreign trade routes separately [and see above], but I'm not sure why the difference matters. I'm not against trade routes ... they just don't seem nearly as important as the size of the delivery bonuses.

BTW: I always aim for "full dedicated" chains. Ideally, each ship is loaded and moving forward about 50% of the time, and there is almost no waiting to match ships with vans.

 

[EnglishEdward]

I landed last night in 1956.

But the video did not show with Vista.

I had not realised the extent to which my strategies were dependent
upon hut popping. Not popping until 200 BC weakened me, and the gall
of it is that the Russians got lots of Nomads and/or Advanced Tribes.

And I did not get the early Trade strategy right either.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

Since the fastest ship takes 5 turns, and yours took 12, it is possible that you "lost 7 turns" this way. I don't know how many turns it would've taken you to build the faster ship; in my big-civ games, it doesn't take long at all. Also, I'm not 100% sure if you were playing for minimal turns [the gotm criteria] or for date [as apolyton].

I certainly was not playing for date vs number of turns. You make a good point. I finished the game in a hurry (to make the extended deadline before I had to go out of town again) and I cannot even remember if I did a full analysis of turns.

We've had some talks in other threads about small bonuses [under 65g] and I thought you felt they were OK. A quick glance at your log, and I thought I saw fewer small ones this time than your other gotms. So, I'm wondering if you did that on purpose, or maybe I'm imagining it.

I definitely emphasized establishing trade routes over size of delivery. Other than managing the routes of cities which already had 3 routes I did not do anything differently.

Also, I've noticed that you count domestic / foreign trade routes separately [and see above], but I'm not sure why the difference matters. I'm not against trade routes ... they just don't seem nearly as important as the size of the delivery bonuses.

I do that because the typical foreign route until very late in the game is about 1.5 to 2 times the size of a domestic one. Counting them this way gives me a better snap shot in my status than lumping them together. It is, however, cumbersome to do so.

BTW: I always aim for "full dedicated" chains. Ideally, each ship is loaded and moving forward about 50% of the time, and there is almost no waiting to match ships with vans.

I definitely should concentrate on my ship chains.

I had not realised the extent to which my strategies were dependent upon hut popping. Not popping until 200 BC weakened me, and the gall of it is that the Russians got lots of Nomads and/or Advanced Tribes.

Others have reported problems with Russians as well. Guessing that we are not alone, (see my response in the game thread) I emphasized exploration more than usual despite lack of hut popping ability. I ran into Russians early on and managed to choke them off at the one and only choke off point by fortifying a warrior there. I also kept them fairly happy by gifting them techs. This worked till the very end. In fact, in the whole game I never attacked nor was attacked by any rival.

 

[Magic_gorter]

I've made a big mistake with my logfile and I've lost it (overwrited it). I'm very sorry. I still can give some stats but the log is gone.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

I look forward to reading what you can provide. Thanks.