GOTM 110 Spoiler
- Thread starter Ali Ardavan
- Start date
Thanks, halewud and mg. I've been looking over #2 and #5, but missed #7 until your post. I guess we should have studied these awesome games before playing 110. I definitely would've switched to Demo and gone for 2 adv per turn near the end.
You are probably right that #7 is the best, since both Zenon and Solo broke the previous normal-map record by about 300 years. Also, since it was the last game, the players were probably at their peak. Not 100% sure, though ... it seems that their results depended a lot on the maps, which were deliberately chosen for nice SSC sites. AFAIK #5 was their best on large maps, and was not hugely better than our results in 110. [BTW - Does the cost of an advance depend on the map size?]
Since yesterday, I have noticed in #2 that SlowThinker did not expand nearly as much as I expected ... only about 20 cities in 1ad, and not much more afterwards. I haven't noticed any major ICSing in their games, and am wondering if there is any good reason for that. He relied heavily on "Xinning in disorder", which I plan to examine for myself. I'm guessing this would be pretty dangerous in Demo, since a single error could cause a collapse of the govt, and maybe that's why he decided to allow himself reloads. The other players noticed the method, but apparently didn't adopt it, or not on a large scale anyway.
MG: Are you still playing ?
You are probably right that #7 is the best, since both Zenon and Solo broke the previous normal-map record by about 300 years. Also, since it was the last game, the players were probably at their peak. Not 100% sure, though ... it seems that their results depended a lot on the maps, which were deliberately chosen for nice SSC sites. AFAIK #5 was their best on large maps, and was not hugely better than our results in 110. [BTW - Does the cost of an advance depend on the map size?]
Since yesterday, I have noticed in #2 that SlowThinker did not expand nearly as much as I expected ... only about 20 cities in 1ad, and not much more afterwards. I haven't noticed any major ICSing in their games, and am wondering if there is any good reason for that. He relied heavily on "Xinning in disorder", which I plan to examine for myself. I'm guessing this would be pretty dangerous in Demo, since a single error could cause a collapse of the govt, and maybe that's why he decided to allow himself reloads. The other players noticed the method, but apparently didn't adopt it, or not on a large scale anyway.
MG: Are you still playing ?
I always thought that everybody who looked at the EL guide of Solo did know about these games. The only part of that guide which still is difficult for me is the trading part. If I somehow manage to improve on that part (unblocking demand and supply) I can make one last big jump in improving my games. On the other hand I do not have always enough time to play long games and the trading part is something which will cost a lot of real life time when playing civ.
And yes we all can learn a great deal from those games...I'm still am.
I'm still playing. Right now at 960 AD and hope to finish soon.....While playing I have found out some tricks that I should have done to use less turns.
One I already mentioned and was after 1 AD. I should have set the tax slider high to get the michelangelo and leonardo wonder much earlier and the other is changing the workers into scientist (the last I did but only half of the cities (and the next turn the other half). With changing to scientist I got once two techs a turn but after that I had a couple of beakers short to trigger the seccond advance. If I had one turn all cities changed to scientist and the next turn not I would have had those two techs a turn more often.
When finished I will replay again after 1 AD....I don't think I will do much better before and I'm curious to see how much faster I will be.
I haven't read #2 (and have no time to do soon). What is Xinning in disorder.....
On switching governments haleewud has it completely correct.
On Statue of Liberty, Magic Gorter got it right. It gives you two advantages: making every year work like an Oedo year and allowing you to choose a government you have not yet discovered (Communism or Fundamentalism).
I agree that if the goal is Early Landing Statue of Liberty should not be built.
On Statue of Liberty, Magic Gorter got it right. It gives you two advantages: making every year work like an Oedo year and allowing you to choose a government you have not yet discovered (Communism or Fundamentalism).
I agree that if the goal is Early Landing Statue of Liberty should not be built.
Despotism-Monarchy-Republic-Demo is definitely it. Staying in Republic is not a good idea due to corruption. Extensive war and thus the need for Fundy should be avoided as much as possible (small scale unavoidable war can be conducted in democracy).
I think switch to Monarchy should happen as soon as possible regardless. The benefits outweigh the few coins you are going to get by maximizing taxes.
No. Galleons do not cause unhappiness either. Only Triremes, Caravels, and Frigates do.
If the goal is early landing, SETI is not that important. By the time it becomes available you have most techs you need.
Usually this can be achieved by employing entertainers which is a lot cheaper than raising the Lux bar.
I agree with your analysis and disagree with your conclusion. Markets are essential for growth. Come to think of it, the discrepancy is because of our different playing styles. You make close cities and likely most of your cities never grow beyond size 8. I place them with little overlap and intend to see them grow beyond 20.
Number of units causing unhappiness is certainly a factor in when to switch to Democracy and I have often delayed Democracy for this reason. But staying in Republic should be a temporary measure.
I have an independent streak or something, that I don't like to follow a guide, or a crowd, until I'm convinced I need that. At the moment, I think the ELG is useful as a reference for its game-mechanics [though I didn't actually use it much even for that]. I knew there were comparison games, but not where to find them. Now, I see that they were pretty impressive, and I'm studying #7, playing the map, etc, to understand Zenon's ideas. He was a "lean" player in both EL and EC, but especially successful in EL.
I guess you were Xinning with order. The way Slowthinker did it in #2, the cities without the scientists [or tax men] were mostly in disorder [about half of of his cities!] Their food boxes were empty, so I think this was necessary to create food. Apparently, disorder isn't so bad, but I don't understand this system 100%.
I was thinking of Fundy for a short period, maybe 8 turns, mainly for the extra gold. It doesn't seem to be a great idea because of the costs [an off path tech...], and maybe for other reasons. After haleewud's post, I see that a switch to Demo can be "free" so I don't see a good reason to stay in Republic.
I'm not saying you should delay Monarchy. But the "few coins" can be very useful to an ICS player in the early game. I guess I can get to 5 cities approx a few turns earlier with them, and monarchy doesn't make much difference until then anyway - not as much as an extra city.
True. I tend to forget those. So, now I'm thinking that Demo should come after Magnetism and Leo's for this reason [at least in my games, which include lots of boats].
I think it is worth its cost, at least in any medium-large civ, and it could easily give an extra advance or two towards the end.
Hmmm. I get the feeling you have thought about this more than me, but IIRC the lux bar works better for me [followed by adjusting the enterainers up or down]. Can you explain your reasoning on this ?
Actually, we might agree. I said they are worthy if either a) they pay you back 8g per turn, or b) if they add approx 4 to city size. I don't build them often, but I did have a handful of cities over size 8 this time and built markets in most of those. I guess that when I said "usually a bad idea" I was imaging a hypothetical player who routinely built them in all his cities.
I guess you are refering to this gotm, so I can agree, and maybe even about EL in general. But I think Democracy is not clearly vastly better than Republic. See gotm 16 where Republic won [Peaster vs Ghost of Starlifter].
Celebrating cities in Monarchy look just like a city in Republic. If I am about to deliver a van, a turn before I employ enough entertainers to make the source city celebrate even at the cost of negative food. This is often but not always possible. After the delivery I put the entertainers back to work. The cost of employing several entertainers in one city is much smaller than raising the lux rate for every city.
This technic mitigates the cost of delaying Republic.
I was indeed referring to EL in general. While I agree that Democracy is not necessarily better than Republic, I do believe that Republic is an inferior choice once modern forms of government are available (Democracy, Communism, Fundamentalism). This is of course by design. The creators of the game did not want players languishing in old forms of government. Having said that, I am sure one can find peculiar examples where my assertion is not true. But in the vast majority of cases switching away from Republic to one of Demo/Commie/Fundy is beneficial (which one of course depends on the circumstances).
You beat Starlifter! Wow! He was a superb player, a great forum writer, and a source of encouragement for new players. It was rare anyone could beat him.
GOTM 16 was the first GOTM I ever played. For some reason the moderator did not include my game in the final results. Not that I did anything worth bragging about. I had just discovered CivFanatics and begun to realize how much I do not know about the game.
This doesn't work so well for me [ICS?]. When I try to do this, I usually have HG, about 15 to 20 cities, and a van from a size 3 city. An Elvis is needed to prevent riots there, but is not enough to celebrate. I have to raise Lux to about 30-40%, and may still need the Elvis. I agree that my method probably costs more [but in beakers rather than gold], but I don't mind - the trade bonus is bigger still.
? (These seem almost contradictory). But I guess I must agree that Demo is usually better for EL, and for high score games. Maybe I play Republic more often for perverse reasons (below).
Yes, but my game didn't count, since I missed the deadline by about 8 years.
IMO he was the greatest writer and Civ2 populizer at CFC. Maybe the greatest writer in all of Civ2Land. I think solo and DaveV probably had better material, but Startlifter had style.
IMO he and Smash were the strongest players at CFC back in the early days of GOTMs. You, Grigor and TimTheEnchanter may actually be stronger now, but not then. I suspect Smash was the stronger of the two, but he played to win quickly, rather than to build up a huge Civ2 score or huge GOTM score. He won lots of Gold medals that way, more than anyone else in those days, and he showed versatility by winning several Greens, Reds and Blues, IIRC. Starlifter played less often (about 10 gotms?), but when he played, he played long Power Demo games, which scored tons of points, and which almost always won Gold and maybe also Blue. But AFAIK he never played a comparison game for speed [such as EC or EL] and IMO these require more skill than GOTM Gold medals. They also provide better training. Still, he attracted many "followers" at CFC and taught us all a lot about using trade in Demo/Fundy/etc to grow a great big Civ.
IMO our current group of players is stronger than the original group, partly because we have more resources now (ELG, ECG, Elephant's Tips, 10 years of forum discussions and comparison games). IMHO I'm stronger in GOTMs than Smash or Starlifter were, partly because I understand growth better, and partly because I have more experience. Growth is more important than govts and game mechanics, and most of my other obvious weaknesses. I thought I could outplay them in a typical 4000BC GOTM, and chose #16 to test that. It was exciting, but it turned out much as I expected - fast growth matters.
Admittedly, I lost to Starlifter and/or his disciple Andu, in the only GOTMs that we played head-to-head, but IIRC those both started in the Modern Age, rather than the usual 4000BC, so they tested mainly Power Democracy skills. Unfortunately, neither he nor Smash nor Andu has played a 4000BC GOTM since I came here in 2004, so there has never been a meeting on neutral ground, unless you count gotm 16.
There were some very strong players at Apolyton back then too, and it would've been interesting to see them play against Smash and Starlifter. AFAIK it never happened. The Apolytoners never played for score anyway. SlowThinker played 1-2 GOTMs, I think, and won 1-2 medals. Zenon played a couple successfully too, but he was mainly an EL specialist, and he came in a bit late, maybe 2004ish like me. Samson and solo never played here. There were also several very-good-but-not-quite-great players, who did about equally well at both sites.
Does anyone know more history ... something I missed ?
You covered most everything.
I was never part of Apolyton. I discovered this forum when I heard that Civ3 is in the works and wanted to get some info on it. I spent a lot of time in this forum in those days reading and learning. The amount of real time it was taking was so much that joining yet another forum was out of the question.
I know all the players you mentioned and a few more. Smash was certainly a top player too. Duke of Marlborough was another great player who was moderator before Magic. He did not play much but when he did he was great. ElephantU and TimTheEnchanter were masters of OCC. LaFayette who passed away a few years ago was a masterful EC player and won quite a few green stars.
timtofly
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Zenon said:
Herein may be the key:
Robust monarchy until 825 BC and then Republic. This allowed the building of 3+ warriors in each city which worked out (for Solo) to be musketeers to be dismantled in the SSC.
Solo said:
Solo said:
I also noticed that both waited until the 7th city to start the SSC. Solo recommends it to be near the beginning or end of the city list. He actually put it in the middle and was able to get 3 (3 tech turns) in a row. In regards to Colossus, Solo lost it, so you can do ok without it, however would he have won with it? Solo had the Pyramids and Zenon did not. Did this help Solo growth wise? Solo kept his warriors and used up one per rush buy. Zenon disbanded his, but this caused a war with Japan, while Solo was able to get more tribute from Japan.
Rules of thumb BC:
Robust Monarchy with warriors.
Robust tech trade and use of demanded tribute.
Robust Trade.
Republic (for growth) + Colony Growth.
Rules of thumb AD:
Democracy (after Magnetism) and 2 tech turns.
Democracy (before Magnetism) and 1 tech turns (two after automoble and SH).
Wait until Democracy to gift tech key civ to reduce tech cost.
Order of Wonders: MPE, HG, Shake, Mikes, Cop, Leo, Col. Solo did Pyramids and lost Col.
Solo had 22 cities, and Zenon had 24.
That's too bad ... Apolyton was very active in 2001-2004. Lots of animated discussion by top players. You could've lurked there without spending a much RL time on comparison games, etc. I hope you have at least browsed thru their GL.
Duke was always a mystery to me. He seemed very strong, but didn't communicate much, and for unknown reasons, he generally didn't play in the same GOTMs that I did. I think he started as a Power Demo disciple, but learned ICS later on while moderating, which probably brought him into the top echelon. Tim was also a fine EC player, and took a few Greens from me before he quit. La Fayette wrote great posts, and first taught me the joys of EC. He was a fine player, but IMO played mostly for enjoyment, with several self-imposed rules which hurt his results a bit. I am not including the great players who are still active, to avoid embarrassment.
@timtofly: I generally agree with your analysis of game #7. I have played on that map a few times now (early game only) and must say - it is one fabulous map. The best SSC I've ever seen [3 gold mts + 1 gems], the best possible terrrain for fast growth up to about 10 cities, and no need for LH. I have gotten a bit ahead of Zenon twice, but each time I had very bad luck with barbs, AI sneaks, sudden changes in Hides demand, etc. So far, I haven't been able to test my plan against his on that map. It is quite possible that my claims (eg that EL is about ICS growth) do not apply well on a map with a perfect SSC site. He really milks it quickly and well. But we should remember that the Poly players were trying to set EL records, and were playing mostly on ideal maps, to do that. Not sure all their conclusions apply to typical GOTM maps.
Back to EL: I'm still trying to understand the basic ideas of EL well enough to analyze games properly. Is EL about fast growth thru most of the game (my claim) ? About finishing your SSC ASAP while doing everything else almost perfectly (Zenon's style) ? About various tricks to get advances cheaply from the AI or Xinning or etc ? Here's my current view based on the games I've seen here and at Poly....
It seems most games go thru 3 phases;
1) Building up some Science Machine such as a van system, an early big SSC, cities that can Xin, ICS lots of little science cities, or whatever, until you can get approx 1 advance per turn. Roughly, this may take about 80 to 150 turns [depending a lot on the map and the player] with about 30 advances, probably before Inv/Nav. The advances come from normal play, or trades with AI's, or from early success with the Science Machine.
2) For the next 20 turns or so, you get an advance per turn from your Machine, while adjusting to various trade penalties, and opportunities like Freight, Darwin, Engineers etc. You are probably in Demo most of this time.
3) You get the last 20 advances at approx 2 per turn, so about 10 turns. I guess 3 per turn is possible, but unusual. I haven't noticed anyone getting more than about 20 in this period, maybe because you need some modern advances (superhighways?) to start this (I haven't done it myself).
You launch within 1-2 turns of getting fusion power.
Does this description seem to cover most EL games ? If so, I think there is not much variation in Phase 2 or 3. The main factor is how long it takes to build your Machine. In the best games I've seen, this phase includes ICS methods up to at least 10 cities, plus vigorous van trading as soon as possible, some effort at a decent SSC, plus some special vision about how to get the most from the map. The main visions I know of are:
a) Turbo-charged SSC.
b) ICS well past 10 cities, aiming for Turbo-charged Trade.
c) About 20 large cities (size 12) for Xinning.
At this point, I still like b), at least for normal unrevealed maps like we get in GOTMs. But I do have doubts. I've been trying to compare b) vs a) in Poly game #7. I'm at a disadvantage because Zenon and solo were much stronger EL players than I. They seem to get more from van trade than I can get [eg better bonuses], even though I'm probably working harder at it [I should have more boats and vans]. Also, the map was apparently chosen to fit a type a) strategy, though it seems fine for any other plan. At 225BC, I'm barely keeping up with Zenon. He has an extra WoW and a bigger SSC, but I have more cities and have been getting an advance almost every turn since 550BC, mainly from vans. If I play on, I expect to lose to Zenon by a few turns. So, I probably cannot continue to claim that EL best play is just about ICS / Big Trade, regardless of map. On the other hand, ICS / Big Trade is doing OK against one of the best EL games of all time on an "SSC map", and I feel it should win on most GOTM maps.
It seems most games go thru 3 phases;
1) Building up some Science Machine such as a van system, an early big SSC, cities that can Xin, ICS lots of little science cities, or whatever, until you can get approx 1 advance per turn. Roughly, this may take about 80 to 150 turns [depending a lot on the map and the player] with about 30 advances, probably before Inv/Nav. The advances come from normal play, or trades with AI's, or from early success with the Science Machine.
2) For the next 20 turns or so, you get an advance per turn from your Machine, while adjusting to various trade penalties, and opportunities like Freight, Darwin, Engineers etc. You are probably in Demo most of this time.
3) You get the last 20 advances at approx 2 per turn, so about 10 turns. I guess 3 per turn is possible, but unusual. I haven't noticed anyone getting more than about 20 in this period, maybe because you need some modern advances (superhighways?) to start this (I haven't done it myself).
You launch within 1-2 turns of getting fusion power.
Does this description seem to cover most EL games ? If so, I think there is not much variation in Phase 2 or 3. The main factor is how long it takes to build your Machine. In the best games I've seen, this phase includes ICS methods up to at least 10 cities, plus vigorous van trading as soon as possible, some effort at a decent SSC, plus some special vision about how to get the most from the map. The main visions I know of are:
a) Turbo-charged SSC.
b) ICS well past 10 cities, aiming for Turbo-charged Trade.
c) About 20 large cities (size 12) for Xinning.
At this point, I still like b), at least for normal unrevealed maps like we get in GOTMs. But I do have doubts. I've been trying to compare b) vs a) in Poly game #7. I'm at a disadvantage because Zenon and solo were much stronger EL players than I. They seem to get more from van trade than I can get [eg better bonuses], even though I'm probably working harder at it [I should have more boats and vans]. Also, the map was apparently chosen to fit a type a) strategy, though it seems fine for any other plan. At 225BC, I'm barely keeping up with Zenon. He has an extra WoW and a bigger SSC, but I have more cities and have been getting an advance almost every turn since 550BC, mainly from vans. If I play on, I expect to lose to Zenon by a few turns. So, I probably cannot continue to claim that EL best play is just about ICS / Big Trade, regardless of map. On the other hand, ICS / Big Trade is doing OK against one of the best EL games of all time on an "SSC map", and I feel it should win on most GOTM maps.
Summary
I switched to Republic from Monarchy in -225 the same turn I built Michelangelo. I could have done it sooner but decided not to. Four of my cities celebrated immediately. I switched to Democracy in 460. This is one the rare occasions when I switched to Democracy without either Magnetism or Bach. I did lots of prior planning for this and it worked out OK. I had to disband one military unit exploring far away but other than that things were under control.
I kept my taxes and lux higher than I normally do at the expense of my science. I need to make up for this quickly. So far I have managed 1 tech per turn in Democracy and in turn 520 I got my first 2 techs per turn (at the expense of setting taxes to zero).
As usual I put an emphasis on wonder building and have got all the ones I really wanted. Bach has been started and should be done around 600. One dumb mistake I made which delayed growth in my science city was building Copernicus before Shakespeare at a time when my science rate was 10-30%. Science city is currently at size 23 and still has room for a few more citizens before farmland.
Foreign relations have been stellar. I have had no incidents with anyone. I kept monitoring their attitude towards me and gifted them techs as it dropped. I put an early emphasis on exploration and found Russians very early on and blocked their passage into my part of the continent by fortifying a warrior at 48,60 (now a musketeer in a fort). They never challenged that.
I have had limited success, but success nevertheless, guiding rivals to discover useful techs.
Besides my homeland, I have explored and settled most of continent 4 (thanks to some nomads), many little close islands, and have recently ventured into continent 27 where I have 3 size 1 cities. I have deliberately not built any cities on rival's homeland.
-0925 Philosophy -> Construction -> Bridge Building. 8 barbarian horsemen from hut which kill my warrior the next turn.
-0850 Tula and Tamuin founded.
-0800 Hanging Gardens built. Beads to Carthage for 80 establishes the first trade route.
-0775 Silk from Science city for 228 establishes the second route. Construction, Philosophy -> Sioux (1) -> Math.
-0750 Bridge Building -> Monotheism.
-0725 Teayo founded.
-0700 Cempoala founded.
-0675 Gems from captial to Moscow for 90 establishes the third route. Chalco and Tlalmanalco founded.
-0625 Ixtapaluca and Huexotla founded. None settler from hut on continent 4.
-0600 None settler from hut on the other side of continent 4.
-0575 Tepexpan founded. Dezful founded by Nomad on continent 4 as the first offshore city.
-0550 Colossus built. Kish founded on island 32.
-0525 50g from hut. 50g from Russians.
-0500 Zitlaltepec founded.
Status at -500
Population: 0.61M; Cities: 23; Trade routes: 0D3F; Government: Monarchy
Gold: 43; Cost per turn: 0; Total advances: 21; Production: 75MT; 0 polluted tiles
Wonders: Marco, Hanging Gardens, Colossus
Units: 7 Settlers (1 none), 10 Warriors, 2 Archers, 1 Horsemen, 1 Chariot, 4 Triremes, 1 Diplomat, 5 Caravans
Russian: 5 cities, 21 techs
Zulu: 4 cities, 12 techs
Viking: 5 cities, 18 techs
Persian: 4 cities, 18 techs
Carthaginian: 3 cities, 11 techs; War with Sioux
Sioux: 3 cities, 15 techs; War with Carthaginians
-0475 Monotheism -> Medicine. Kharg founded. T7L0S3
-0425 Medicine from hut.
-0400 -> Republic. Advanced tribe founds Shiraz on continent 4. Construction -> Viking (5) -> Republic.
-0375 -> Banking. Rasht founded.
-0350 Zabol founded. Beads to Vikings for 264.
-0325 Zahedan founded. Advanced tribe founds Neyriz in continent 4. Hides to Vikings for 208.
-0275 Banking -> University. Bridge Building -> Viking -> University. University, Republic -> Russian -> 150g.
-0250 -> Astronomy. Seafaring from hut. Republic, University, Seafaring -> Persian(3). Revolution started.
-0225 Michelangelo built. Russian -> 50g. Republic established. T8L2S0. None settler and Warrior Code from hut. Shush founded.
-0200 Hides to Vikings for 272. Laar founded. 4 cities celebrate.
-0175 Chiauhtia and Anzali founded. T6L4S0
-0150 Republic, University -> Sioux(0) -> Astronomy
-0125 Republic, University, Trade, Warrior Code -> Zulu -> Engineering -> Persian & Russian. Chemistry and Crusader from huts. Gheshm founded.
-0100 -> Sanitation. First infrastructure built. Science city and Capital reach size 8.
-0075 Hides from Science city to Viking Hladir establishes its second route for 640 (capped). T5L4S1. Astronomy -> Persian -> maps.
-0050 Sanitation -> Theory of Gravity. First domestic offshore routes established for 78, 114.
-0025 T4L5S1
+0001 Hides from Science city to Viking Kaupang establishes its third route for 661 (capped). Four barbarian horsemen from hut kill my warrior the next turn. 9 techs to Sioux to reduce research cost.
Status at +0001
Population: 2.9M; Cities: 34; Trade routes: 4D8F; Government: Republic
Gold: 424; Cost per turn: 7; Total advances: 32; Production: 148MT; 0 polluted tiles
Wonders: Marco, Hanging Gardens, Colossus, Michelangelo
Units: 14 Settlers (2 none), 26 Warriors, 2 Archers, 1 Horsemen, 1 Chariot, 1 Crusader, 7 Triremes, 1 Diplomat, 25 Caravans
Russian: 6 cities, 24 techs
Zulu: 7 cities, 18 techs
Viking: 5 cities, 22 techs
Persian: 5 cities, 30 techs
Carthaginian: 3 cities, 13 techs; War with Sioux
Sioux: 3 cities, 27 techs; War with Carthaginians
+0020 Theory of Gravity -> Economics. Domestic offshore Gems for 402. None settler from hut.
+0040 Zulu build Pyramids. 8 barbarian horsemen from hut kill my warrior the next turn. Hides to Sioux for 232. Hides to Vikings for 248. Spahan founded.
+0060 Economics -> Invention. Copernicus built. Salt to Vikings for 96. Beads to Sioux for 280. Shushtar founded.
+0080 Chapultepec founded.
+0100 Hides to Vikings for 312. Feudalism from hut. Feudalism, Chemistry, Seafaring, Sanitation -> Russian (3) -> maps. Tech bombed Sioux.
+0140 Vikings build Great Library. Navigation from hut. Navigation -> Persian.
+0160 Shakespeare built. Invention -> Gunpowder. Invention -> Russian, Persian, Sioux. Silk to Carthaginians for 90. Beads to Vikings for 156. Tlapanaloya founded. T3L4S3
+0180 Domestic offshore Wine for 180. T5L4S1
+0200 Hides to Vikings for 84.
+0220 Salt to Carthaginians for 92. Domestic offshore wool for 80. Babol and fasaa founded. Nomad from hut.
+0240 Gunpowder -> Metallurgy. Paasaargaad founded.
+0260 Leo built. Six barbarian horsemen from hut which all die attacking my musketeer. T1L4S5
+0280 First library built in science city. Silver to Carthage for 100. T6L4S0
+0300 Advanced tribe founds Amol. Deliveries to Vikings for 172, 265, 64. Tonb founded. T3L4S3
+0320 Metallurgy -> Explosives. Brujerd, Lahijaan, and Naayin founded.
+0340 Deliveries to Zulu for 128. 50g+25g from hut.
+0360 Russians build Sun Tzu. Deliveries to Vikings for 132, 216, 255.
+0380 Persians build King Richard's. Explosives -> Physics. Abadan and Miyaanrud founded.
+0400 50g from hut. Wine to Zulu for 240. Bushehr founded. T0L4S6
+0420 Physics -> Democracy. Cloth to Sioux for 140. Two barbarian knights from polar hut which freeze to death the next turn. T2L4S4
+0440 Deliveries to Zulu for 280. Rudsar founded. T4L4S2.
+0460 Democracy -> Theology. Democracy established. Deliveries to Zulu for 120, 94. Tequixquiac, Kerman, Sirjaan, and Dashtestaan founded. T1L2S7
+0480 Theology -> Atomic Theory. Newton built. Saari and Khorramabad founded. Domestic offshore Beads for 64. Deliveries to Vikings for 330, 132, 106.
+0500 Atomic Theory -> Magnetism. Magellan built. Domestic offshore Spice for 105. Wine to Vikings for 290. T0L2S8
Status at +0500
Population: 11.6M; Cities: 56; Trade routes: 14D32F; Government: Democracy
Gold: 105; Cost per turn: 56; Total advances: 44; Production: 259MT; 0 polluted tiles
Wonders: Marco, Hanging Gardens, Colossus, Michelangelo, Copernicus, Shakespeare, Leo, Newton, Magellan
Units: 26 Engineers (4 none), 18 Musketeers, 2 Horsemen, 10 Caravels, 2 Diplomats, 16 Caravans, 1 explorer
Russian: 6 cities, 39 techs; Sun Tzu
Zulu: 7 cities, 21 techs; Pyramids
Viking: 6 cities, 37 techs; Great Library
Persian: 5 cities, 36 techs; King Richard's
Carthaginian: 3 cities, 15 techs; War with Sioux
Sioux: 4 cities, 44 techs; War with Carthaginians
I switched to Republic from Monarchy in -225 the same turn I built Michelangelo. I could have done it sooner but decided not to. Four of my cities celebrated immediately. I switched to Democracy in 460. This is one the rare occasions when I switched to Democracy without either Magnetism or Bach. I did lots of prior planning for this and it worked out OK. I had to disband one military unit exploring far away but other than that things were under control.
I kept my taxes and lux higher than I normally do at the expense of my science. I need to make up for this quickly. So far I have managed 1 tech per turn in Democracy and in turn 520 I got my first 2 techs per turn (at the expense of setting taxes to zero).
As usual I put an emphasis on wonder building and have got all the ones I really wanted. Bach has been started and should be done around 600. One dumb mistake I made which delayed growth in my science city was building Copernicus before Shakespeare at a time when my science rate was 10-30%. Science city is currently at size 23 and still has room for a few more citizens before farmland.
Foreign relations have been stellar. I have had no incidents with anyone. I kept monitoring their attitude towards me and gifted them techs as it dropped. I put an early emphasis on exploration and found Russians very early on and blocked their passage into my part of the continent by fortifying a warrior at 48,60 (now a musketeer in a fort). They never challenged that.
I have had limited success, but success nevertheless, guiding rivals to discover useful techs.
Besides my homeland, I have explored and settled most of continent 4 (thanks to some nomads), many little close islands, and have recently ventured into continent 27 where I have 3 size 1 cities. I have deliberately not built any cities on rival's homeland.
-0925 Philosophy -> Construction -> Bridge Building. 8 barbarian horsemen from hut which kill my warrior the next turn.
-0850 Tula and Tamuin founded.
-0800 Hanging Gardens built. Beads to Carthage for 80 establishes the first trade route.
-0775 Silk from Science city for 228 establishes the second route. Construction, Philosophy -> Sioux (1) -> Math.
-0750 Bridge Building -> Monotheism.
-0725 Teayo founded.
-0700 Cempoala founded.
-0675 Gems from captial to Moscow for 90 establishes the third route. Chalco and Tlalmanalco founded.
-0625 Ixtapaluca and Huexotla founded. None settler from hut on continent 4.
-0600 None settler from hut on the other side of continent 4.
-0575 Tepexpan founded. Dezful founded by Nomad on continent 4 as the first offshore city.
-0550 Colossus built. Kish founded on island 32.
-0525 50g from hut. 50g from Russians.
-0500 Zitlaltepec founded.
Status at -500
Population: 0.61M; Cities: 23; Trade routes: 0D3F; Government: Monarchy
Gold: 43; Cost per turn: 0; Total advances: 21; Production: 75MT; 0 polluted tiles
Wonders: Marco, Hanging Gardens, Colossus
Units: 7 Settlers (1 none), 10 Warriors, 2 Archers, 1 Horsemen, 1 Chariot, 4 Triremes, 1 Diplomat, 5 Caravans
Russian: 5 cities, 21 techs
Zulu: 4 cities, 12 techs
Viking: 5 cities, 18 techs
Persian: 4 cities, 18 techs
Carthaginian: 3 cities, 11 techs; War with Sioux
Sioux: 3 cities, 15 techs; War with Carthaginians
-0475 Monotheism -> Medicine. Kharg founded. T7L0S3
-0425 Medicine from hut.
-0400 -> Republic. Advanced tribe founds Shiraz on continent 4. Construction -> Viking (5) -> Republic.
-0375 -> Banking. Rasht founded.
-0350 Zabol founded. Beads to Vikings for 264.
-0325 Zahedan founded. Advanced tribe founds Neyriz in continent 4. Hides to Vikings for 208.
-0275 Banking -> University. Bridge Building -> Viking -> University. University, Republic -> Russian -> 150g.
-0250 -> Astronomy. Seafaring from hut. Republic, University, Seafaring -> Persian(3). Revolution started.
-0225 Michelangelo built. Russian -> 50g. Republic established. T8L2S0. None settler and Warrior Code from hut. Shush founded.
-0200 Hides to Vikings for 272. Laar founded. 4 cities celebrate.
-0175 Chiauhtia and Anzali founded. T6L4S0
-0150 Republic, University -> Sioux(0) -> Astronomy
-0125 Republic, University, Trade, Warrior Code -> Zulu -> Engineering -> Persian & Russian. Chemistry and Crusader from huts. Gheshm founded.
-0100 -> Sanitation. First infrastructure built. Science city and Capital reach size 8.
-0075 Hides from Science city to Viking Hladir establishes its second route for 640 (capped). T5L4S1. Astronomy -> Persian -> maps.
-0050 Sanitation -> Theory of Gravity. First domestic offshore routes established for 78, 114.
-0025 T4L5S1
+0001 Hides from Science city to Viking Kaupang establishes its third route for 661 (capped). Four barbarian horsemen from hut kill my warrior the next turn. 9 techs to Sioux to reduce research cost.
Status at +0001
Population: 2.9M; Cities: 34; Trade routes: 4D8F; Government: Republic
Gold: 424; Cost per turn: 7; Total advances: 32; Production: 148MT; 0 polluted tiles
Wonders: Marco, Hanging Gardens, Colossus, Michelangelo
Units: 14 Settlers (2 none), 26 Warriors, 2 Archers, 1 Horsemen, 1 Chariot, 1 Crusader, 7 Triremes, 1 Diplomat, 25 Caravans
Russian: 6 cities, 24 techs
Zulu: 7 cities, 18 techs
Viking: 5 cities, 22 techs
Persian: 5 cities, 30 techs
Carthaginian: 3 cities, 13 techs; War with Sioux
Sioux: 3 cities, 27 techs; War with Carthaginians
+0020 Theory of Gravity -> Economics. Domestic offshore Gems for 402. None settler from hut.
+0040 Zulu build Pyramids. 8 barbarian horsemen from hut kill my warrior the next turn. Hides to Sioux for 232. Hides to Vikings for 248. Spahan founded.
+0060 Economics -> Invention. Copernicus built. Salt to Vikings for 96. Beads to Sioux for 280. Shushtar founded.
+0080 Chapultepec founded.
+0100 Hides to Vikings for 312. Feudalism from hut. Feudalism, Chemistry, Seafaring, Sanitation -> Russian (3) -> maps. Tech bombed Sioux.
+0140 Vikings build Great Library. Navigation from hut. Navigation -> Persian.
+0160 Shakespeare built. Invention -> Gunpowder. Invention -> Russian, Persian, Sioux. Silk to Carthaginians for 90. Beads to Vikings for 156. Tlapanaloya founded. T3L4S3
+0180 Domestic offshore Wine for 180. T5L4S1
+0200 Hides to Vikings for 84.
+0220 Salt to Carthaginians for 92. Domestic offshore wool for 80. Babol and fasaa founded. Nomad from hut.
+0240 Gunpowder -> Metallurgy. Paasaargaad founded.
+0260 Leo built. Six barbarian horsemen from hut which all die attacking my musketeer. T1L4S5
+0280 First library built in science city. Silver to Carthage for 100. T6L4S0
+0300 Advanced tribe founds Amol. Deliveries to Vikings for 172, 265, 64. Tonb founded. T3L4S3
+0320 Metallurgy -> Explosives. Brujerd, Lahijaan, and Naayin founded.
+0340 Deliveries to Zulu for 128. 50g+25g from hut.
+0360 Russians build Sun Tzu. Deliveries to Vikings for 132, 216, 255.
+0380 Persians build King Richard's. Explosives -> Physics. Abadan and Miyaanrud founded.
+0400 50g from hut. Wine to Zulu for 240. Bushehr founded. T0L4S6
+0420 Physics -> Democracy. Cloth to Sioux for 140. Two barbarian knights from polar hut which freeze to death the next turn. T2L4S4
+0440 Deliveries to Zulu for 280. Rudsar founded. T4L4S2.
+0460 Democracy -> Theology. Democracy established. Deliveries to Zulu for 120, 94. Tequixquiac, Kerman, Sirjaan, and Dashtestaan founded. T1L2S7
+0480 Theology -> Atomic Theory. Newton built. Saari and Khorramabad founded. Domestic offshore Beads for 64. Deliveries to Vikings for 330, 132, 106.
+0500 Atomic Theory -> Magnetism. Magellan built. Domestic offshore Spice for 105. Wine to Vikings for 290. T0L2S8
Status at +0500
Population: 11.6M; Cities: 56; Trade routes: 14D32F; Government: Democracy
Gold: 105; Cost per turn: 56; Total advances: 44; Production: 259MT; 0 polluted tiles
Wonders: Marco, Hanging Gardens, Colossus, Michelangelo, Copernicus, Shakespeare, Leo, Newton, Magellan
Units: 26 Engineers (4 none), 18 Musketeers, 2 Horsemen, 10 Caravels, 2 Diplomats, 16 Caravans, 1 explorer
Russian: 6 cities, 39 techs; Sun Tzu
Zulu: 7 cities, 21 techs; Pyramids
Viking: 6 cities, 37 techs; Great Library
Persian: 5 cities, 36 techs; King Richard's
Carthaginian: 3 cities, 15 techs; War with Sioux
Sioux: 4 cities, 44 techs; War with Carthaginians
Who is this ICS impostor, pretending to be Ali Ardavan ? Whoever it is, they have a good shot at winning this GOTM.
I too find the fact that you and I had about the same number of cities in -500 to +500 startling. You usually have a lot more; sometimes twice as many. But I think this is more a case of you building fewer cities.Who is this ICS impostor, pretending to be Ali Ardavan ? Whoever it is, they have a good shot at winning this GOTM.
I am doubtful about your prediction. What I do not have is your trade machinery that can produce and deliver over a dozen vans per turn.
Well, it looks like a very nice game from here, and you were smart enough to switch to Demo. I guess if you can get enough multi-advances, you'll win.
This ICS/Trade/SSC stuff, I am still trying to sort it out. When I started GOTM 110, I just figured I'd build way more than the ELG advises, probably more than any other player, and I expected that to work out well. Then I started to think that trading gives a better growth rate than ICS, so I made as many vans and boats as possible. Then I realized I needed more ports to support boats, so I ICSed again until that was solved (partly by Leo+Transports). Then another problem ... my older cities were all getting blocked, so I built a whole new civ ("Bulgaria") just past the Russians, mainly to make more freight.
Don't ask me (yet) what is the right way to do it ! I think this map was a bit unusual in that the bonuses weren't big, so I was forced to deliver 10-12 vans per turn at some point just to get an advance. So my theory started to break down. In my Poly7 replay, the bonuses are normal, but there is no demand for Hides [a key part of my plan to avoid blockage]. So, my theory is hurting again. But I think it will survive, as long as I refuse to consider any alternatives.
timtofly
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I think the trick is to get your SSC to 3 established trade routes that leave it's demands open. using your colonies you can deliver back to the SSC what it demands. When you make a delivery change the source city's workers to elvis. This "trade" will not create a route, thus not blocking the demand.
My added theory to this is if you know the "strengths" of the cities involved in the established trade routes, you only have to change enough workers to be a little weaker than the weakest established city. Establishing strong routes between a strong capital city and the SSC may eliminate all of the guess work. If you can get an SSC that demands hides you would be all set.
Even going from your SSC to an overseas AI city with a demanded good. As long as you are not creating a route for that city you will not block its demand. If you can create 3 strong routes with that city, and you know the strengths of the source cities, you can adjust your own workers to make demanded trades without creating routes and blocking demands.
I am not sure what factors determine trade for the AI, but it seems that you can get way ahead of them in the GOTM and can manipulate trade to your advantage. There does not seem to be much trade going on for the AI.
My added theory to this is if you know the "strengths" of the cities involved in the established trade routes, you only have to change enough workers to be a little weaker than the weakest established city. Establishing strong routes between a strong capital city and the SSC may eliminate all of the guess work. If you can get an SSC that demands hides you would be all set.
Even going from your SSC to an overseas AI city with a demanded good. As long as you are not creating a route for that city you will not block its demand. If you can create 3 strong routes with that city, and you know the strengths of the source cities, you can adjust your own workers to make demanded trades without creating routes and blocking demands.
I am not sure what factors determine trade for the AI, but it seems that you can get way ahead of them in the GOTM and can manipulate trade to your advantage. There does not seem to be much trade going on for the AI.
I followed Magic's link a while back, but became obsessed with Zenon's game, and didn't read solo's summary until today. Looks like he finally converted to ICS himself, after writing the ELG:
"Since converting from my early Republic system to the robust Monarchy strategy used so effectively by SG(2), Slow Thinker and Zenon, I’ve experimented with several variations of doing this and have found that by far, the most important consideration is the quantity of cities and the speed with which they are established. The early policy should be to just build settlers and found more cities. "
IIRC Zenon built about 12 and later grew to about 20 (game 7). And solo built about 25. Small numbers compared to some of our games, but to finish by 3xxAD, they had to build many WOWs and stop ICS growth by about 1AD. I want to emphasize that their map was MUCH better than ours was in GOTM 110, so it doesn't make sense to compare their launch dates with ours.
"Since converting from my early Republic system to the robust Monarchy strategy used so effectively by SG(2), Slow Thinker and Zenon, I’ve experimented with several variations of doing this and have found that by far, the most important consideration is the quantity of cities and the speed with which they are established. The early policy should be to just build settlers and found more cities. "
IIRC Zenon built about 12 and later grew to about 20 (game 7). And solo built about 25. Small numbers compared to some of our games, but to finish by 3xxAD, they had to build many WOWs and stop ICS growth by about 1AD. I want to emphasize that their map was MUCH better than ours was in GOTM 110, so it doesn't make sense to compare their launch dates with ours.
Do people want to analyze GOTM 110 and EL theory further ? I think there are still a few games going, so maybe we should wait a bit. But I will probably not be able to post much, starting in about a week, lasting until mid-July.
Originally, I thought we'd aim for a mathematical analysis of the main features of EL games - try to compare the values of an early SSC, to prolonged ICS growth, to heavy trade. Use our logs and saves to compare the value of libraries to ongoing trade routes, etc. We can still do that if people are interested. But I must admit I've spent too much time on this lately, and even if I haven't perfected my EL skills, I've learned a bit, and could happily accept with my present level of EL play, and move on. Maybe do this again once in a while.
Whether we do the math thing or not, it might be nice to compare notes on how to play the different phases of an EL game, notes on celebration, trade, ICS, etc. Some of us have already been posting notes about these, here and in other threads. Do we want to organize any of this stuff for posterity ?
Originally, I thought we'd aim for a mathematical analysis of the main features of EL games - try to compare the values of an early SSC, to prolonged ICS growth, to heavy trade. Use our logs and saves to compare the value of libraries to ongoing trade routes, etc. We can still do that if people are interested. But I must admit I've spent too much time on this lately, and even if I haven't perfected my EL skills, I've learned a bit, and could happily accept with my present level of EL play, and move on. Maybe do this again once in a while.
Whether we do the math thing or not, it might be nice to compare notes on how to play the different phases of an EL game, notes on celebration, trade, ICS, etc. Some of us have already been posting notes about these, here and in other threads. Do we want to organize any of this stuff for posterity ?
