Thank you. All that is very true. On the other hand, the more religions you found the less there are for the AI. So the far away continent could have a single religion. So they will trade among themselves more often. And when the elections come, they will vote one another instead of voting you.
GOTM 13 - First Spoiler
- Thread starter ainwood
- Start date
Thank you. All that is very true. On the other hand, the more religions you found the less there are for the AI. So the far away continent could have a single religion. So they will trade among themselves more often. And when the elections come, they will vote one another instead of voting you.
Yes, I checked and pondered it for a while and decided to gamble and then missed meditation by 1 turn. Whether I would have gotten it by working the lake instead I obviously can't say but I can say that 1) I missed it by just 1 turn. 2) I could have cut 1 turn off my research time but didn't.
godotnut
Inverted Unicycle
Hi, godotnut, may I ask a question? I don't understand your sentence above.
As I said in the pregame discussion I don't think that founding a religion is worth it. Now, if you plan to win a diplo game, I can see how an early religion can help you.
But, founding a second religion? Why? You are not spreading both, are you?
My question is: how can founding a third and say a fourth religion contribute to your goal of a diplomatic victory?
Harok answered the first question for me pretty well already. My approach to diplo games has emphasized trying to monopolize the religions, letting as few as possible get founded by others, so that I can more easily convert countries to my own religion. It's a lot easier to convince them to convert when they haven't founded the religion themselves, it seems. I usually skip Buddhism at the higher levels and try to set whoever founds that religion up as my enemy come voting time. If I found all but one or two others, it's relatively easy to spam missionaries enough to convert a religious block in your favor.
I think I am copying my own strategy from one of my favorite games--a gauntlet with Gandhi against all the war mongers on a crowded map on Emperor. The gauntlet needed to be won diplo to count. I had one of my funnest and most nail-biting games and finished in 1456. I think I keep trying to replicate that game with variations in my more recent diplo games. But maybe I should try something different and not rely so much on religion.
The gamble in this strategy is that you want to win before the AI switches to free religion and you lose your bonus, making it all for not. But if you can beeline quickly to mass media, you can achieve some good wins with this approach when it works.
Not if I can convert them before the vote happens. But it's really really hard (impossible?) to convert a civilization that has founded a religion. It's a gamble, I know, and since I only founded two religions (
), it probably won't work for me here, and I will likely have to go for domination instead.I'm not sure it was the ideal approach, but hammers and beakers are related, no? I focused on getting granaries and libraries up as soon as possible--also monasteries and universities in my science-focused cities. And of course fast courthouses are good for the economy. I wouldn't do this for all games, that's for sure, but for this one--given my overall approach trying to grab a lot of religions--it seemed to fit.
I tend never consider working lake. May be it comes from me allway playing on higher level.
On higher level because of AI bonuses they will beat you no matter + 2 commerce of lake, if they researching the same tech.
So, If I remember correctly I lost buddism by 2 turns. I was working spices for first 5 turns and then 1/2 forest tie for shields to build boat ASAP.
But if there were no Indian and I did not choise challenger (So there was chance some one else got Mysticism as starting tech), there a good chance to get buddism as Izza even on deity. 14/16 chance in Vanilla.
Playing in higher dificulty involve a healthy doze of fatalism. If boat set agains you you actially can not do anything to influence it.
On higher level because of AI bonuses they will beat you no matter + 2 commerce of lake, if they researching the same tech.
So, If I remember correctly I lost buddism by 2 turns. I was working spices for first 5 turns and then 1/2 forest tie for shields to build boat ASAP.
But if there were no Indian and I did not choise challenger (So there was chance some one else got Mysticism as starting tech), there a good chance to get buddism as Izza even on deity. 14/16 chance in Vanilla.
Playing in higher dificulty involve a healthy doze of fatalism. If boat set agains you you actially can not do anything to influence it.
Buddhism is always riskier to go for than hinduism because more AI's seem to beeline there. I don't think I'd ever pick buddhism to beeline for, but I often go for hinduism if I'm starting with a mysticism-enabled civ and there's some commerce around to help research it.
Khalid
Warlord
There are 5 civs starting with mysticism. India, Spain, Monte, Saladin and HC. And usually one of them decides to research it right from the start. I have seen all of those founding budhism.
pigswill
fly (one day)
I went for buddhism straight off, worked the lake and got it. I have no idea if any AI was after it as well.
We founded Madrid on the Ivory in the first turn for the extra shield and food. Learning Hunting was put off until after 140 AD just to magnify the 'advantage' of that move. Started with a workboat and worked toward being able to chop an early settler. Decided not to go for an early religion after taking a look at the first-turn demographics- it looked like too many other civs also started with mysticism.
We were pretty lucky with exploring. In 2830BC Peter's worker was spotted moving onto the rice near his capitol. I think this was his very first worker move. We stole it right away, but since we were focused on growing our own empire we didn't have the punch to force a peace until 1090 BC. That was okay though- Peter only managed to found a second city during this time and improved not a single tile. We flew past him in every category as we claimed the resources and grew our empire. This was the first in a series of wars in which Russia turned out essentially a supplier of free towns to support our domination goal. The downside was that Peter could never build the Pyramids, or much of anything else either.
In 1090 we also completed the Oracle in Barcelona, the gold etc town, and took Metal Casting. We went on to build the Great Lighthouse in Madrid (415BC) and the Colossus in Barcelona (430BC) for a nice economic kit to help our domination economy.
Mainly we focused on growing and building a strong financial base. Cordoba was founded directly on the Iron (pre-IW) because it looked like a nice future-7-hill spot. We founded Confucianism (475BC) and generated a Great Prophet (280BC) to build the shrine.
In 350AD the Great Library was finished in the fp town in the south. This was also the home of Confucianism amd turned out to be a decent science city.
We captured a couple barb towns because they were in good locations and relatively easy targets. And frankly because they were there. In 470 another war with Peter ended in which we had capured 3 cities, including Moscow. By 500AD we had eleven cities and were gunning toward Astronomy (as soon as currency would be finished...). Our science will probably turn out to be slower than some other players but it is hard not to see this one as a successful start.
We were pretty lucky with exploring. In 2830BC Peter's worker was spotted moving onto the rice near his capitol. I think this was his very first worker move. We stole it right away, but since we were focused on growing our own empire we didn't have the punch to force a peace until 1090 BC. That was okay though- Peter only managed to found a second city during this time and improved not a single tile. We flew past him in every category as we claimed the resources and grew our empire. This was the first in a series of wars in which Russia turned out essentially a supplier of free towns to support our domination goal. The downside was that Peter could never build the Pyramids, or much of anything else either.
In 1090 we also completed the Oracle in Barcelona, the gold etc town, and took Metal Casting. We went on to build the Great Lighthouse in Madrid (415BC) and the Colossus in Barcelona (430BC) for a nice economic kit to help our domination economy.
Mainly we focused on growing and building a strong financial base. Cordoba was founded directly on the Iron (pre-IW) because it looked like a nice future-7-hill spot. We founded Confucianism (475BC) and generated a Great Prophet (280BC) to build the shrine.
In 350AD the Great Library was finished in the fp town in the south. This was also the home of Confucianism amd turned out to be a decent science city.
We captured a couple barb towns because they were in good locations and relatively easy targets. And frankly because they were there. In 470 another war with Peter ended in which we had capured 3 cities, including Moscow. By 500AD we had eleven cities and were gunning toward Astronomy (as soon as currency would be finished...). Our science will probably turn out to be slower than some other players but it is hard not to see this one as a successful start.
how do the demographics tell you how many civs start with mysticism?!
I look at the Rival Average Military line. Most civs start with the same thing, a warrior. If everyone starts the same, the Rival Average will be a nice round number.
But India (mysticism) starts with his fast worker and a weaker initial military. Inca (mysticism) starts with the Quecha instead of warrior for a stronger initial military. And Mali (no mysticism) starts with the skirmisher (or do they?) also for a stronger initial military.
The conclusion was that at least one other civ was starting with mysticsm based on the the initial Rival Average Military number (it was 11875). I don't remember the exact math and don't know all the specifics about these numbers, it might have been partly a guess. But I felt that an early religion was not a sure thing on this level and avoided it.
I like the reasoning, that's quite clever. But two things puzzle me.
1. Surely India starts with the same military as everyone else. How's it weaker?
2. What about Civs that start with hunting. If a human player starts with hunting, he has a weaker military since he has a scout instead of a warrior. Does anything analogous happen for the AI? If so, wouldn't that screw up the figures?
Well again, I don't have this down to a science.
To answer your questions:
1. I thought India started with a fast worker. I'm not 100% sure.
2. Good question. I don't know how the game calculates the strength of a scout.
What I do think I know:
a warrior counts as 10000
A quecha counts as 15000
If the average is higher than normal we know one of the military civs is in. If it's low, or not high enough, I figure India is dragging it down with his fast worker. But how do scouts fit in, and does Mali even start with a skirmisher? I haven't mastered all these questions.
To answer your questions:
1. I thought India started with a fast worker. I'm not 100% sure.
2. Good question. I don't know how the game calculates the strength of a scout.
What I do think I know:
a warrior counts as 10000
A quecha counts as 15000
If the average is higher than normal we know one of the military civs is in. If it's low, or not high enough, I figure India is dragging it down with his fast worker. But how do scouts fit in, and does Mali even start with a skirmisher? I haven't mastered all these questions.
On Monarch, all the AIs start with a worker. I'd expect India to start with a fast worker instead of a normal worker, but I wouldn't have expected that to have any impact on military strength. Without having explicitly checked, I'd expect Mali to start with a skirmisher since I can't recall ever seeing Mali have any normal archers. My impression is that the UU always replaces, and prevents use of, the unit it's replacing in any situation in which that unit would have otherwise appeared.
I guess the average soldiers demographics gives information more like a poker hand than anything and I was just pinning on it my misgivings about early religion. It wasn't a sure thing, the benefits would be slim, and avoiding it meant I could go straight for mining and bronze working to start chopping a second city. The starting location was pretty mediocre and getting settlers out sooner seemed better than sacrificing production for quicker initial science.
No early religion and the mediocre starting spot shaped my start. Civil Service didn't look like it would be of much use, and we still didn't have it as of 500AD. Settling on the Ivory meant skipping hunting and archery made sense. By process of elimination that left the metal casting and masonry route. The soldiers demographic thingy was just something else to weigh, even if I misinterpreted the data.
I think things turned out well for a domination start- we got the economic wonders and were free to learn Iron Working sooner and build a decent military. With the stolen worker we got some land settled and developed as quickly as we could. I'm interested to see how my game will compare vs people who took the first settler for a walk...
No early religion and the mediocre starting spot shaped my start. Civil Service didn't look like it would be of much use, and we still didn't have it as of 500AD. Settling on the Ivory meant skipping hunting and archery made sense. By process of elimination that left the metal casting and masonry route. The soldiers demographic thingy was just something else to weigh, even if I misinterpreted the data.
I think things turned out well for a domination start- we got the economic wonders and were free to learn Iron Working sooner and build a decent military. With the stolen worker we got some land settled and developed as quickly as we could. I'm interested to see how my game will compare vs people who took the first settler for a walk...
da_Vinci
Gypsy Prince
Got this stated after Christmas, still finishing the endgame, so the full early details will wait until after I submit and can go back to the periodic saves and get some screenshots.
Figured that I would learn some useful stuff in SGOTM 3 that I could use in GOTM 13, and that proved to be true ...
After my comments in the pre-game about how poor a location the warrior hill (with the fish) was for a city, I looked at settling in place ... and looked at settling on the ivory, and decided to ... SETTLE ON THE WARRIOR HILL !!
Before I descibe the rationale for that, and show how it turned out (which will need the screenshots), did anyone else settle there, and what do folks think of that choice on first blush?
dV
Figured that I would learn some useful stuff in SGOTM 3 that I could use in GOTM 13, and that proved to be true ...
After my comments in the pre-game about how poor a location the warrior hill (with the fish) was for a city, I looked at settling in place ... and looked at settling on the ivory, and decided to ... SETTLE ON THE WARRIOR HILL !!
Before I descibe the rationale for that, and show how it turned out (which will need the screenshots), did anyone else settle there, and what do folks think of that choice on first blush?
dV
After my comments in the pre-game about how poor a location the warrior hill (with the fish) was for a city, I looked at settling in place ... and looked at settling on the ivory, and decided to ... SETTLE ON THE WARRIOR HILL !!
Before I descibe the rationale for that, and show how it turned out (which will need the screenshots), did anyone else settle there, and what do folks think of that choice on first blush?
Intriguing. I didn't do that, I settled in place. Reading your post inspired me to go back and look at the starting screenshot to see what rationale I could think of for settling on the warrior-hill.
I'm guessing you decided to go for a domination/conquest victory (or at least: something involving early warring)? The warrior hill has 3 mountains - that's kinda bad if you're planning on spacerace or something where you're in the game for the long haul, but irrelevent if you're planning on a quick victory. You get the use of the fish and the extra hammer from the plains-hill, so in the short run you have a reasonable production/poprushing city without having to build a worker first and later with forests to chop too. I notice it also gives you another guaranteed high-ish food spot north of the ivory that you can also use for some poprushing. The thinking involved there is looking a bit like trying-to-use-every-resource, which again is iffy logic for long-haul games but I can see some logic in the short term if you want a quick high-production civ (eg. for conquest).
Am I getting warm?
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