GOTM #14 *Spoilers* Thread
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Cartouche Bee
Appropriations Consultant
There is currently no rule against it but it is only to be used for checking against domination (IIRC) and I doubt you can be close to domination without knowing the world map. Using mapstat to learn something about the lay of the land at the start of the game is not, well, advisable for normal GOTM play.
GOTM Admin - will be reviewing the wording on a number of rules to clarify issues, in the mean time we have to extend a wide berth to what might be considered infractions in the future.
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I am almost hopelessly behind in 480 AD, but it looks like I have outdone many of the players.
I fell apart in this game the second I realized it was just Persia, and me, and my play suffered. I am amazed that I am still in the game.
I fell apart in this game the second I realized it was just Persia, and me, and my play suffered. I am amazed that I am still in the game.
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It might be worth noting that the terrain counts in mapstat aren't much of a spoiler when the map settings are given. Water level is quite stable, and so are ratios of the different terrain types. Mapstat also doesn't give any idea as to the landform, or any information that isn't readily available in game (finding the opposing civs in the space race screen for instance). The exception would be when we use random map settings, as mapstat terrain counts should make at least the weather/age settings somewhat obvious.
Japan is trading the Persians saltpeter!!! why I do not know. I still thought I had a chance to take a few Persian cities (they are down to 8) with some stacks of Knights, but then what do I see? A rifleman. Wow am I behind in the tech race. And I can't research better than 40 turns. Still no leader in about 800AD so no Forbidden Palace.
China is almost dead. They would be too, but a remote city the Indians gifted me for a bloodless war flipped back to them when they were down to one city. Right now, I have two chances of winning, histograph and diplomatic, but I couldn't imagine either actually taking place. I don't play deity though so I am happy with my game.
China is almost dead. They would be too, but a remote city the Indians gifted me for a bloodless war flipped back to them when they were down to one city. Right now, I have two chances of winning, histograph and diplomatic, but I couldn't imagine either actually taking place. I don't play deity though so I am happy with my game.
Kuhal
Chieftain
I don't know what mapstats is but form the sounds of it, I would not use it. In my real game, I made 2 warriors and sent them exploring. I saw the wheat on the plains and sent my first settler there.
I would never ever send my first settler 10 squares north on any map. Well if I knew what was there I might, but it's still risky IMO. It obviously worked for you but I suspect not because of just that move. It was probably because you also backed it up with other good strategies that I'm not using as yet.
10 moves for the first settler in a diety games is at least 5 moves too many IMO. Those 5 moves would be like at least 15 production units wasted... I play alot of chess and gambits are my favoured openings yet the 10 move north gambit seems extremely risky. Well done on making it work...
Kuhal
Chieftain
I tried it out and you are right about the timing, but I do better than this with Ur going in at 3150BC and Babylon is 4 turns from producing it's second settler (2 turns till population goes to 3) at 3000BC. I used 3000BC as my comparison point for my 7 or 8 opening sequence comparisons.
So why the second worker? That just wastes shields I would have thought... unless its something about using it to join the city at the perfect time to somehow get some free wheat..hmmm lemme go see...
bbl
Kuhal and others
Mapstat is a little program that you can find on the utilities thread that gives you the tile count on types of land and the ownership of those tiles on a given map. I don't what is its original development purpose but it is used mostly to avoid domination victory (it calculates how many tiles you need to achieve domination). I also use it to compare my territory and population with the AI's but only late in the game. As CB stated the use of mapstat could reveal age, temperature and climate as well as land/water balance of a given map to someone who is experienced with it.
I'm reserved regarding Bremp's posts as it's the first time i see him post. Right now I'd say he is bluffing. I never heard of such strategy and don't imagine it would work on any level above regent.
I don't want to offend anyone so i'll shut up and check bremp's score in previous GOTM. I'd still add that his game is on my top priority for review...
Edit: This would be his first GOTM submission. :hm:
But i saw a lot of good players that aren't even registered (or submit under different nicks)
Mapstat is a little program that you can find on the utilities thread that gives you the tile count on types of land and the ownership of those tiles on a given map. I don't what is its original development purpose but it is used mostly to avoid domination victory (it calculates how many tiles you need to achieve domination). I also use it to compare my territory and population with the AI's but only late in the game. As CB stated the use of mapstat could reveal age, temperature and climate as well as land/water balance of a given map to someone who is experienced with it.
I'm reserved regarding Bremp's posts as it's the first time i see him post. Right now I'd say he is bluffing. I never heard of such strategy and don't imagine it would work on any level above regent.
I don't want to offend anyone so i'll shut up and check bremp's score in previous GOTM. I'd still add that his game is on my top priority for review...
Edit: This would be his first GOTM submission. :hm:
But i saw a lot of good players that aren't even registered (or submit under different nicks)
Re: Re: Re: to all
I've been playing Civ3 for 4 months only. This is my 4th GOTM and I didn't submit the others. The first, with the japanese was very easy... not for me, of course, and the AI killed me. The second with the zulu I won, but it wasn't so easy, and last month I won again, but now, reading Cracker's QSC, I can see how wrong I played, because I used archers to destroy the AI in my island. Very different to the other players.
When I start this one I think: I am not able to win a Deity game. My first idea in this game was try to find a city of the AI, any city, build my capital, build some warriors and then atack. I destroyed the Persians but I think I'm not able to win this game yet.
Maybe I should read some strategies articles and play like everyone.
Kuhal: I play chess too, and I love gambits
ainwood: i think your reply didn't add anything to the discussion
Sorry if I can't write better.
I've been playing Civ3 for 4 months only. This is my 4th GOTM and I didn't submit the others. The first, with the japanese was very easy... not for me, of course, and the AI killed me. The second with the zulu I won, but it wasn't so easy, and last month I won again, but now, reading Cracker's QSC, I can see how wrong I played, because I used archers to destroy the AI in my island. Very different to the other players.
When I start this one I think: I am not able to win a Deity game. My first idea in this game was try to find a city of the AI, any city, build my capital, build some warriors and then atack. I destroyed the Persians but I think I'm not able to win this game yet.
Maybe I should read some strategies articles and play like everyone.
Kuhal: I play chess too, and I love gambits
ainwood: i think your reply didn't add anything to the discussion
Sorry if I can't write better.
I survived this GOTM, avoiding being wiped from the face of the map, but lost at the end to a Persian spaceship launch.
Walls and luxuries are all that saved me from an early death. I'm stunned that I managed to survive until the AI spaceship victory (Persia), as the only other Deity game I've ever played, even on an earlier patch, resulted in death before 1000 BC. As it is, I survived until the late 1700s AD, with Xerxes only fighting me twice, and only one war taking significant losses. My early game timeline has already been submitted to the QSC, but most of the 'interesting' events of the game happened at 1000 BC or afterwards. Shaka's galley appeared offshore of my southernmost city near the end, and I managed to avoid complete early elimination based on tech by trading him everything for some gold and contact with Xerxes, since he'd probably find him in a few turns anyway.
After that, Xerxes decided to take exception to a city of mine that overlapped slightly with one of his, and invaded. Fortunately, I'd spent time building veteran spears to defend my frontier with, so I only lost the city he attacked first. I lost the only luxury of one kind that I had there,
but elsewhere, the RNG was kind, and elite spears within pop-rushed city walls saved me from annihilation.
However, survival was about all that I achieved- India found Xerxes and Shaka first, and after the First Persian War, I never had an opportunity to build up enough quality military to attack Persia. The AI tech pace ended up leaving me a full age behind at the end of the game, and I had no Iron.
Without the military option, I played through trade and diplomacy, and if I'd been anywhere near the tech level to get the UN, I would have won an election easily. Except for trade deals broken by MPPs invoked, forcing me to go to 'war', I kept my word to the AI. Barring the initial Persian invasion, and a later attack on one other city that failed fairly soon, the AI was content to occasionally demand pittance from me rather than attack my cities. Honorable conduct allowed me to make deals with the other civs for reasonable prices, and avoided Xerxes from running over me with tanks, even when I had a ridiculously small military.
This is the first game of Civ where I've found MPPs to be useful, in this case, enlisting Shaka to discourage a visit by the 20+ Immortals/Infantry/Tanks on the other side of the border, or Xerxes to dissuade an irrationally angry Shaka.
This is my first GOTM. If I've posted spoiler-type information, let me know and I'll edit this to delete it. My QSC timeline probably won't be as interesting as most others, as I didn't win, but if you want to see conditions where the AI will attack you in a few turns, download it when the results are announced.
I've learned a lot from the other participants and the mentors in the Succession Games forum, either by participating in or reading the threads, and I wouldn't have survived this Deity game without that.
Walls and luxuries are all that saved me from an early death. I'm stunned that I managed to survive until the AI spaceship victory (Persia), as the only other Deity game I've ever played, even on an earlier patch, resulted in death before 1000 BC. As it is, I survived until the late 1700s AD, with Xerxes only fighting me twice, and only one war taking significant losses. My early game timeline has already been submitted to the QSC, but most of the 'interesting' events of the game happened at 1000 BC or afterwards. Shaka's galley appeared offshore of my southernmost city near the end, and I managed to avoid complete early elimination based on tech by trading him everything for some gold and contact with Xerxes, since he'd probably find him in a few turns anyway.
After that, Xerxes decided to take exception to a city of mine that overlapped slightly with one of his, and invaded. Fortunately, I'd spent time building veteran spears to defend my frontier with, so I only lost the city he attacked first. I lost the only luxury of one kind that I had there,
but elsewhere, the RNG was kind, and elite spears within pop-rushed city walls saved me from annihilation. However, survival was about all that I achieved- India found Xerxes and Shaka first, and after the First Persian War, I never had an opportunity to build up enough quality military to attack Persia. The AI tech pace ended up leaving me a full age behind at the end of the game, and I had no Iron.
Without the military option, I played through trade and diplomacy, and if I'd been anywhere near the tech level to get the UN, I would have won an election easily. Except for trade deals broken by MPPs invoked, forcing me to go to 'war', I kept my word to the AI. Barring the initial Persian invasion, and a later attack on one other city that failed fairly soon, the AI was content to occasionally demand pittance from me rather than attack my cities. Honorable conduct allowed me to make deals with the other civs for reasonable prices, and avoided Xerxes from running over me with tanks, even when I had a ridiculously small military.
This is the first game of Civ where I've found MPPs to be useful, in this case, enlisting Shaka to discourage a visit by the 20+ Immortals/Infantry/Tanks on the other side of the border, or Xerxes to dissuade an irrationally angry Shaka.
This is my first GOTM. If I've posted spoiler-type information, let me know and I'll edit this to delete it. My QSC timeline probably won't be as interesting as most others, as I didn't win, but if you want to see conditions where the AI will attack you in a few turns, download it when the results are announced.
I've learned a lot from the other participants and the mentors in the Succession Games forum, either by participating in or reading the threads, and I wouldn't have survived this Deity game without that.
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- Oct 5, 2001
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Bremp;
Firstly, please don't apologise for your writing. Your english is very good, and better than some for which it is their first language
As for my post, I apologise for it not being clear in intent.
You may not be aware, but this competition has been somewhat plagued by people cheating. One common thing is replaying the game after having discovered a few key attributes from the map (eg. where the AI is, where the resources / luxuries are).
My
was meant to highlight that your actions look very suspicious. I don't really want to get into this too much, as this thread is a "spoilers" thread about peoples' experiences playing the game. We don't really need another thread on cheating etc, and I shouldn't really have contributed to turning this into one.
Well since this is the *spoiler* thread you could post spoilers. We try to avoid posting detailed map/resource information to avoid people that would take advantage of such info in their game. For example you could have said that the luxury that you only had one and lost was 'incense' or that you missed the iron in the North by a little and didn't know of the other iron deposit far in NW. For this particular GOTM I think that you could also tell that you lacked rubber, coal and oil but had access to one saltpeter as most of the players either never get to see those resources or capture enough land to get one of them anyway.
Hobbes
Utilitarian Despot
After not playing GOTM for a couple months, I decided to get back in. A very interesting map to start with, and I got lucky by popping a settler out of one of the huts (thanks to who posted the prior tip of not building settlers when you pop a hut, the odds of popping a settler go up). I discovered the Persians early, and even made friends, trading a tech, making pleasant conversation. I managed to get to the Northern iron source first (could not figure latter when viewing the end game replay, why the Persians founded two cities before I had a chance to pop a settler down in that area) as I had a settler waiting 'to go there' as soon as I discovered iron working.
Persians declared war on me before I had my iron hooked up, but they did not have access to iron either. We fought a short war, got an early golden age, and the Persians threw archers and horsemen at two of my cities that I had just finished putting walls around. I took one of their cities and sued for peace. Got some techs and we went back to an uneasy peace.
Made contact with the Zulus, and managed to finish building out the map, and guess who declares war again, the Persians. Well, I throw a lux at the Zulus and they join in with me. This time I have built up my military and I manage to take/destroy about half the Persian cities along with their horses. Right after talking Persolopisis (and the pyramids), I notice the first immortal so I sue for peace, get enough techs to bring me up to everyone else. Switch to Republic, get some gold and buy my way to chivalry and start upgrading my horsemen. As soon as I have enough knights I finish off the Persians.
Spent most of the rest of the game building up my infrastructure and launching my space ship.
Persians declared war on me before I had my iron hooked up, but they did not have access to iron either. We fought a short war, got an early golden age, and the Persians threw archers and horsemen at two of my cities that I had just finished putting walls around. I took one of their cities and sued for peace. Got some techs and we went back to an uneasy peace.
Made contact with the Zulus, and managed to finish building out the map, and guess who declares war again, the Persians. Well, I throw a lux at the Zulus and they join in with me. This time I have built up my military and I manage to take/destroy about half the Persian cities along with their horses. Right after talking Persolopisis (and the pyramids), I notice the first immortal so I sue for peace, get enough techs to bring me up to everyone else. Switch to Republic, get some gold and buy my way to chivalry and start upgrading my horsemen. As soon as I have enough knights I finish off the Persians.
Spent most of the rest of the game building up my infrastructure and launching my space ship.
Side note: Hobbes, according to Firaxis, one of the conditions for getting a settler from a hut is that you're not building one already- I believe Bamspeedy has posted the official list of goody hut odds in several places, including a 'goody hut manipulation/management' thread in GD. Also, good idea timing a settler build close to the discovery of iron working... I'll have to think about doing that the next time I find myself stuck competing for territory with Xerxes early in the game.
True. I can't think of much to add, other than that I had saltpeter for a while (until it fell within Persian cultural boundaries), and after that, only my 1 gems and 3 dyes left to trade around. Xerxes never let me get near the iron sources, as he had cities there by the time I got iron working. Coal appeared within my borders awhile after I grabbed Steam Power, as an AI's supply evidently ran out, but it wasn't there from the beginning. Fortunately the other civs were more than willing to trade resources + gold/tech for luxuries, especially the dyes. With the massive world war that covered a large part of the mid-to-late game on a particular landmass, it was hard to tell who actually 'had' oil and the other resources beyond rubber, as cities kept changing hands until the warmongers not originally there divided it up amongst themselves. I was just happy to see all those stacks of ships+transports going somewhere else .
Originally posted by Yndy
Well since this is the *spoiler* thread you could post spoilers. We try to avoid posting detailed map/resource information to avoid people that would take advantage of such info in their game. For example you could have said that the luxury that you only had one and lost was 'incense' or that you missed the iron in the North by a little and didn't know of the other iron deposit far in NW. For this particular GOTM I think that you could also tell that you lacked rubber, coal and oil but had access to one saltpeter as most of the players either never get to see those resources or capture enough land to get one of them anyway.
True. I can't think of much to add, other than that I had saltpeter for a while (until it fell within Persian cultural boundaries), and after that, only my 1 gems and 3 dyes left to trade around. Xerxes never let me get near the iron sources, as he had cities there by the time I got iron working. Coal appeared within my borders awhile after I grabbed Steam Power, as an AI's supply evidently ran out, but it wasn't there from the beginning. Fortunately the other civs were more than willing to trade resources + gold/tech for luxuries, especially the dyes. With the massive world war that covered a large part of the mid-to-late game on a particular landmass, it was hard to tell who actually 'had' oil and the other resources beyond rubber, as cities kept changing hands until the warmongers not originally there divided it up amongst themselves. I was just happy to see all those stacks of ships+transports going somewhere else .
Borealis: How many other civs did survive until the end? Was Persia the most powerful one at the end? I'm thinking that you still have a very good chance to destroy Xerxes in about 40 turns after you grabbed Stream Power. If your civ can manage to produce 100 artilleries, 25 infantries and 50 cavalries, then taking Xerxes out of the game would be no problem at all.
This GOTM is terrible ...
i never played in Deity mode and now i know why : too hard for me
like many other, i failed to do anything ... even after 8 attempts, i was crushed by Persians.
So i used Bremp 's technics , build your town near Perseapolis. And just by doing this , you can easily destroy Persians and get all their techs.
Oh, ok it's perhaps a cheat as i knew the position of Persians's Capital but for many player (me inside) this game is *little* (lol) too hard for them. And for me this GOTM is only a way to try new tactics and perfects other.
I really asked myself if many differents tactics exist to win in Deity mode...
i never played in Deity mode and now i know why : too hard for me
like many other, i failed to do anything ... even after 8 attempts, i was crushed by Persians.
So i used Bremp 's technics , build your town near Perseapolis. And just by doing this , you can easily destroy Persians and get all their techs.
Oh, ok it's perhaps a cheat as i knew the position of Persians's Capital but for many player (me inside) this game is *little* (lol) too hard for them. And for me this GOTM is only a way to try new tactics and perfects other.
I really asked myself if many differents tactics exist to win in Deity mode...
Originally posted by ilive
too hard for me
A positive role model like yourself is so rare these days. Many people would say "it's too hard for me.
" (with the unhappy face), not too many people would take on a challenge with a smile. Come to think about it, in the true spirit of Civ3, my foreign citizens often starve to dead, but one thing for sure is that they always die with the smile on their faces.
I guess I'm learning a good lesson today. No matter what comes in life, always accept it with a smile.At the end of the game, 3 AI civs were left, but Japan only possessed one city. Xerxes and Shaka had divided up the other large continent, and I was still stuck with my 5 cities on the starting landmass. I thought about sending settlers to claim some of the new landmass, but by the time I realized the world war was, for once, resulting in lands gained/lost in major ways, the AI flooded it with settlers.
Xerxes was indeed the most powerful one, with Shaka not far behind. I didn't research Military Tradition, as it didn't become available until after Persia and Zulu had wiped out civs on the other continent and claimed the land there. Even had I grabbed it immediately, I doubt I could have produced the amount of units you suggest in the time required, and still would have lost to Shaka's spaceship. Maybe a MPP with Shaka might have done it, but that would put him in danger of getting domination if he grabbed Xerxes' cities on the other continent.
Hmm.... I just might try an Emperor game if MOO3 is delayed yet again... if I survived this, maybe I can come from behind in an 'easier' game.
Sirian
Designer, Mohawk Games
After playing GOTM7, I said I'd be back when GOTM returned once again to Deity. This one turned out to be an interesting situation, summed up pretty well by LKendter in his description of the dilemma posed here. I had fun playing, and I've just submitted my result.
In addition to observing the GOTM rules, I also played within the considerably more restrictive rule set observed by the Realms Beyond community, including the No Spoiler rule, with completing my game (not just "knowing most of the world map") before visiting this thread.
After reading through, I see that GOTM is evolving slowly in the direction of fewer spoilers, at least in the sense that fewer of the leading players are posting crucial information and those who still are seem to be posting less information. As for my results, I popped three huts and all three spewed forth hostile barbarians. Apparently, my goody hut misfortune from GOTM7 is still intact. On the other hand, like GOTM7, that means that whatever I may have managed to achieve will have come after climbing out of a deeper hole than others, so at least there's a silver lining. I intend to post a report on my site to start the new year. I'll come back then and post a link here.
Cracker: good luck with running the show. Organizing any group effort is a load of work. I hope folks don't give you too many headaches.
- Sirian
In addition to observing the GOTM rules, I also played within the considerably more restrictive rule set observed by the Realms Beyond community, including the No Spoiler rule, with completing my game (not just "knowing most of the world map") before visiting this thread.
After reading through, I see that GOTM is evolving slowly in the direction of fewer spoilers, at least in the sense that fewer of the leading players are posting crucial information and those who still are seem to be posting less information. As for my results, I popped three huts and all three spewed forth hostile barbarians. Apparently, my goody hut misfortune from GOTM7 is still intact.
On the other hand, like GOTM7, that means that whatever I may have managed to achieve will have come after climbing out of a deeper hole than others, so at least there's a silver lining. I intend to post a report on my site to start the new year. I'll come back then and post a link here.Cracker: good luck with running the show. Organizing any group effort is a load of work. I hope folks don't give you too many headaches.
- Sirian
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