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GOTM 16 Spoiler

Discussion in 'Civ2 - Game of the Month' started by noughmaster, May 9, 2002.

  1. LordValuna

    LordValuna High Lord

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    im pretty sure I had that Settler tie up for a while. He waited to take city when Cease-Fire ended.

    I have no idea for how many turns (if any more than 1) it was empty?:crazyeye:
    How civilized of the Celts :D
     
  2. Lucky

    Lucky Game- and Quizmaster

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    Oh, I even use engineer sometimes myself to take AI cities, especially if the AI territory has no complete railroad network!
    This way I can sometimes save the movement points of "real" combat units for other tasks.
    :D

    P.S. to LordValuna: Your signature is too long. The forum rules require a maximum length of 5 lines, including empty ones! You have 9.
    Just a little reminder, as I don´t really mind, but when Palehorse76 catches you with this sig, he´ll request a change and if you don´t comply you get a 2 day ban!
    Better to go according to the rules from the beginning!
    See here: Forum Rules
     
  3. Duke of Marlbrough

    Duke of Marlbrough The Quiet Moderator Retired Moderator

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    PH usually checks Sigs at 1024x768. At 800x600 his sig is 9 lines, at 1024x768 it is still 6 lines. So, PH would still track you down. ;)
     
  4. Lucky

    Lucky Game- and Quizmaster

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    Sorry to disagree, I´m using 1024x768! But Netscape, so that may be the reason for the difference.
    His sig is 9 lines!
    :D
     
  5. LordValuna

    LordValuna High Lord

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    Thanks, thought it was verbose. Thats the trouble with cut 'n paste, things can get out of hand:)
     
  6. Duke of Marlbrough

    Duke of Marlbrough The Quiet Moderator Retired Moderator

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    Could be the reason then. :)

    Here's my 800 view

    Here's my 1024 view

    I didn't realize that netscape would be different. Besides, my stuff was only what I saw them at, not a contradiction to what you had. ;)

    Anybody care to guesstimate how many GOTM submissions we got for GOTM 16? We had quite a bit more submissions last month then the last months before that and we have seen many new players joining us. So, I'm going to go for a 30-35 range again.
     
  7. starlifter

    starlifter Chieftain

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    About the sub-topic of displayed lines... a big factor is the font size and kerning somone chooses for their resolution/diaplay. E.g., in NS, Edit --> Preferences --> Appearance --> Fonts

    People have become quite creative with sigs since last year :cool:.

    As for Duke's question, I'll guess 40 :).
     
  8. Lucky

    Lucky Game- and Quizmaster

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    Hope you got mine, too!
    Actually it´s not really worth the trouble this time :eek:, but I hope so nonetheless. I mailed it to Matrix, as requested.

    But I´m really wondering why it takes so long for both GOTM results this time. Usually both would have been up by now.
    :D

    Oh and this Spoiler thread is also by far the longest one lately!
     
  9. starlifter

    starlifter Chieftain

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    My guess is that it is still a lot of work. Matrix also pays a lot of attention to detail. Last Fall, about the time you were playing your first couple GOTMs and there was no Civ 3 GOTM, we were expecting about 4-6 days or so. Plus now, Matrix has even more stuff in his spreadsheet.


    More people hopefully submitted games this month, too! School year might reduce GOTM submissions in some months, but I bet it'll pick up in the summer as the eager and bright young Civ strategists have time play the game!
     
  10. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    This is longer than most have been lately because starlifter is back!

    Hey, starlifter, did you see the *new* airbases rule for the GOTM? It's not really new but was put in shortly after your hiatus began.
     
  11. Peaster

    Peaster Chieftain

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    I'm giving this one a try, to see how my game compares with the Civ2 legends. If anyone reads this and has any interest in this game, I can post a more detailed log or even some saves. A dedicated noobie can study my game almost step-by-step if they want. Before I started, I saw the GOTM results (I know... I know.... but I wanted a GOTM with several strong players and I had to look).

    GOLD: Starlifter 3042 points in 1570 = 506 GOTM
    SILVER: [Chofrtiz IIRC] 740 points in 280AD = 470 GOTM
    BRONZE: Smash approx 1000 points in approx 700AD = approx 430 GOTM

    Game Summary: It seems van rehoming was allowed in this game, so I decided to allow myself that too. I'm not sure of all the 2002 rules (can anyone summarize the main differences ?). Also, I'm not sure what the old guys aimed for, but I assume they wanted a high GOTM score and a Gold medal, so that's how I played it.

    2100BC: Monarchy adv (govt in 2050), 4 cities
    1500BC: 12 cities
    1250BC: HG
    1000BC: 17 cities, war with Zulus, 1st mini-flotillas are out
    750BC: MPE, 21 cities
    725BC: 1st van pays 200g
    650BC: Colossus - I've been playing my usual fast-growth game so far, and still could have played for Early Conquest, but I wanted a big GOTM score, and for that you need trade and repu/demo govt, etc. So, I'm building a modest STC and not sure where to put it. I chose a plains tile (28,36), near a gold tile. This is not an ideal site for the long term, since it is surrounded mostly by mountains, but it serves pretty well until 500AD, and IMO that's what counts. By now, I have 25 cities, and am pretty sure I've grown faster than the veteran players from 2002. I doubt I can play democracy as well as Starlifter, for example, but IMO that won't matter much.
    575BC: I've planned my game around Hides and a ship chain to Little Big Horn, but the demand for Hides dries up there, so I have to shift my boats to Spain. About the time I do that, the demand dries there too! I think my overall luck was average in this game, except for these dismal events, which puts it a bit below average.
    375BC: Spanish sneak attack and raze a city and a boat. Hides demand is totally gone from this world.
    300BC: Pyramids (for growth, for economy + score)
    100BC: LH This WoW is not 100% necessary on this map, but I think it pays for itself quickly, and it gives my boats some protection.
    75BC: Zulus (eg Zimabawe) down. Not much good for trade anyway.
    1AD: Celts down (ditto, plus I wanted the land). A Persian flotilla also takes Athens this turn, but the Greeks had moved their capitol to Rheims. Hides demand returns at Sparta and Cedar Creek. Neither is ideal for trade (not coastal/etc), but I can build a road from CC to the coast, and plant a Persian port there. This works out nicely and CC demands Hides for a long time.

    1AD Stats: 56 cities, 5 WoWs, have 22S 15cru, 16tri, 5v, 20misc and have lost about 20 units (slightly unlucky in combat).

    20AD: Spain goes down. Maybe I should've left a city or two for trade [in case demand changed again], but I was a bit mad at the Spaniards. A 2nd food van goes into my STC and it's size 6 now (repeat in 100ad, to size 7).
    260AD: Mike's
    300AD: Switch to Republic. I think the timing was about right; I now have plenty of size 3 cities (and the STC) to benefit from the cele-growth. Most port cities support one boat and not much else. I have about 40 vans and 30 triremes. Am earning/spending about 1000g per turn. My Civ2 score is approx 500; well behind Chofritz's, but I have just started my Republic-growth.
    340AD: Invention (sinks trade bonuses for while)
    400AD: Leo's (mainly for my boats and settlers, not for my tiny army)
    440AD: Adam Smith - I haven't built many temples/libraries, etc, but have many harbors.
    500AD: RR->Indus, I have over 100 cities, 42 adv, the STC is size 16. My bonuses are down to approx 250g per van, but I have LOTs of rehomed vans, and they'll be freights soon.
    520AD: Darwin, indus->magn->corp->feud.
    580AD: Magellan's [my triremes have been upgraded to transports, but they still can't keep up with the huge flow of vans in and out of the STC land mass]. Greeks go down.
    I have about 20,000g at the end of each turn, and can RB at will. Now I can see why van rehoming was eventually forbidden - it really makes the game too easy at this stage. If I had a decent STC, my bonuses would be even bigger, probably by about 50%.
    600AD: JSB. (and probably WS next turn ... maybe with a switch to Democracy). I'm prepping a batch of size 3 cities for a spurt of growth.

    That's where I am now. I'm still in the early Republic phase, and have recently passed Starlifter in GOTM score. My Civ2 score is approx 1200 and should rise 5% to 10% per turn for at least 10 turns if I play it out. The two remaining AI are healthy, but far behind in science, and my cities are encroaching on their homelands.

    My conclusions? Some Civ2 players in 2002 were really great, and added a lot of ideas to the game. But the Civ2 community [including myself, but mainly others] has made some discoveries and revised some judgements since then, so a strong 2008 player should normally be able to get the better results. For example, modern players will take more risks, and leave cities undefended, trying to maximize growth or production. IMO Starlifter wasted some early resources on KRC/etc and didn't squeeze all he could have from the early game (though I'm sure his handling of democracy later on was magnificient).

    On the other hand, this is just one game, so maybe it doesn't mean much. Sometimes I take too many risks, and just crash and burn.

    Is it too late to submit my game ? ;)
     
  12. grigor

    grigor Chieftain

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    As I remember the history, the early masters (Starlifter and Smash, with some astonishingly early scores from Chofritz) were far out in front of the pack largely due to the use of incremental rush-buying and trade. Big advances in technique were made after the analytical work of Samson and solo, mostly at Apolyton. Score-building skill made a jump after a paradigm-shifting game using early Pyramids by Slow Thinker. Early Conquest strategy started with Chofritz and was fine-tuned by a series of GOTM green stars by Peaster.

    The gauntlet has been thrown down! Up until now I secretly thought that Starlifter would dominate if he returned, but now a new challenger has risen to claim the crown! Let the games begin!!
     
  13. Peaster

    Peaster Chieftain

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    Well, based on this game, I feel I could beat most of the GOTM scores from the early days, probably without a very early conquest or a switch to democracy. I've only played one more turn of GOTM 16 since my last post, but my Civ2 score rose from 1196 to 1283 and I expect that rate to continue. I'll probably stay in republic, just to make the point that democracy is not required.

    There are probably at least 5 other CFC players, including you Grigor, who could also beat the old scores. I expect Starlifter could too, assuming he's kept up with Civ2 ideas since 2002. My main point is that GOTM score [and EL and EC etc] depends much more on early-growth skills than on late game skills, such as the finer points of Trade, or Power Democracy. It seems to me that eventually any good player can "break the game" and everything becomes easy; the real issue is - how soon ?

    I was interested to hear about Chofritz and EC. Do you know where I can read more about his games or his strategy ?
     
  14. LordValuna

    LordValuna High Lord

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    This map is very favourable, no Lighthouse required. Your starting area has hilly/mountain terrain, so isnt great.

    I was wondering if anyone has done writeup on "power republic" like power demo & power fundy. I always thought republic not that bad, you get 1 unit each city to use offensively, get the abilty to grow cities to size 23. Just how to overcome the corruption
     
  15. Peaster

    Peaster Chieftain

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    I agree that republic is not bad. In my current game at 660AD, I'm in a republic, building one WoW per turn, getting 1 adv per turn, building approx 20 engineers per turn, and raising my Civ2 score approx 100 pts per turn. I have approx 30,000 gold ... more than I can reasonably spend. Keep in mind that I'm rehoming freight to my mediocre STC in this game, which might add 50% or more to my economy.

    If you'd like a description of what I'm doing, I can write it up. But to be honest, it doesn't seem very hard, and it doesn't deserve a fancy name like "power republic". If there are any lessons here, they are in the early game, in the despotism/monarchy period.

    Update at 660AD: Score 1492. 79 engineeers, 65 freight, approx 130 cities?, RR's almost everywhere, at peace with 2 remaining AI, almost no army. I'm planning to finish around 780AD by conquest with a Civ2 score around 2500. Turns taking about 1-1.5 hours each.
     
  16. Peaster

    Peaster Chieftain

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    The experiment is over:

    2008: Peaster = 3122 pts in 780AD = 765 GOTM

    2002 GOLD: Starlifter = 3042 pts in 1570AD = 506 GOTM
    SILVER: Chofritz = 740 pts in 280AD = 470 GOTM
    BRONZE: Smash = 974 pts in 660AD = approx 452 GOTM

    Of course, my game is not official, but I have saves and a log if anyone cares to check them. At the end I had 170 cities, 29000g, 67mil pop, and 80 leftover freight. I stuck with republic until the last turn to show that democracy is not really needed. But I agree that demo is better. I could not have sustained my 10% growth rate much longer under republic.
     
  17. Ace

    Ace Chieftain

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    Did you take into account the amount of waste and corruption from Republic as oppposed to none in Democracy? Looks like a lot of lost trade and shields in that size empire in Republic.

    Early Republic works, but it is a good idea to switch to Demo as soon as your infrastructure can support it.
     
  18. grigor

    grigor Chieftain

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    Wow.

    I have always been blown away by Starlifter's huge Civ scores, and you managed to best it 790 years earlier, and in Republic!

    Where in the early game does the new information improve scores? The beginning game (rush to Monarchy) is the same as 2002. The next stage (Trade and Marco's)was codified by people at Apolyton in the testing after Solo's early conquest guide, and you have added an expansion aspect to that which pays dividends later. I suggest that your most important early game improvement is in the play from 100BC to 1 AD, or from Marco's to a functioning civilization.

    If you wanted to describe your priorities to us in that era, it might be of some theoretical help.
     
  19. Peaster

    Peaster Chieftain

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    Not really a problem in this game. An average turn in Republic was very easy and went like this:

    Deliver about 30-40 vans for a profit of 10,000g, and an advance. Spend it on more vans, engineers and improvements (mostly harbors and aqueducts; and a few markets, courthouses, temples, sewers as needed). A tiny fraction also went into WoWs or military or more boats. I didn't need more gold or beakers from my cities, so I didn't care much about corruption; I set lux at 60 to let them celebrate and grow. The main reason for growth in city size was to allow more engineer production, and thus more cities. Of course, near the end the growth was for score.

    My point is that if you play the early game well, you can relax later. Demo vs Republic doesn't matter that much (I'm even wondering if monarchy might work out OK). I wasn't using my Key civ, wasn't optimizing IRBs, etc.

    @Grigor: Thanks. Good questions. I think you already know most of my ideas ("grow!"), but I will try to write something up soon.
     
  20. Peaster

    Peaster Chieftain

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    A high GOTM score requires some skill at early (monarchy) growth, and some skill with advanced govts, but I've always felt that the former is more important, and often neglected even by the best players.
    First, it was Peaster's early conquest guide, not solo's. We played some comparison games at Poly and discussed the timing of WoWs, etc. I always prefered fast growth, but solo and zenon (and you?) prefered early exploring and a leaner civ. IMO the jury is still out on the best style for EC (probably mine is better for big maps, and the lean style is better for small ones).

    I said "we" have learned some things since 2002, but I don't know exactly what others have learned. Maybe I should just discuss what I have learned. Mainly - to grow as quickly as anyone can. I've learned that ideally you can double your civ in about 13 turns in monarchy [remember our Poly sessions with rjmatsleepers, etc?] but in practice it usually takes over 20 turns because of built in costs, such as travel and WoWs and defense. You can double faster if you can minimize those costs, and find investments that return more than about 5% [eg hut-popping on large land masses, or trade on most any map].

    Getting back to GOTM16 ... It seems I was clearly ahead by 1ad, but I wasn't sure my play would hold up in the republic phase [actually, I continued to outgrow the pack even then]. Here are the main differences I see in the 1AD saves of Starlifter, Smash and myself (I cannot open Chofritz's save):

    Peaster: 56 cities (as opposed to 22 and 44). If you remove the cities taken by conquest, the ratio is more like 50 to 25. My cities were packed a little tighter than the other players. You might say this stunted my cities' vertical growth later, but these early cities were the key to my game. More cities = more everything.

    I had 22 settlers, and was making 16. The others had approx 13, making 7 more. I had 16 boats, making 4 more. The others had approx 4, making 2. I had 5 vans, making 24; they had approx 2 each. I had built 5 WoWs, they had built 3 (and Starlifter had 2 more from conquest).

    Starlifter: Had 13 phalanxes and 7 dips. I had almost none of these, just a few warriors and 15 crusaders. Most of my cities stayed empty throughout. I did lose one in this GOTM, but that is fairly rare, and worth the risk.

    He and Smash had irrigated about 5 tiles (I had only 1). He had science on 70% with 21 advances (I had science on 30%, and had 28 advances - but I don't count this statistic as very important). He and Smash had approx 3 military losses (I had 20 losses ... not proud of that, but that is unusually high for my games). He had built KRC, one of my least favorite WoWs, and probably a waste.

    Smash: With 44 cities, he is in the same ballpark with me, and his cities are spaced better for demo-growth later on. But he seems to have no economy and can't RB effectively (Mike's is standing 2/3's built, which is a big waste of resources). He's got 22 pikemen, making 5 more (there is no need!! waste!!) and he finishes the game with 49 of them. He has only one boat. His growth seems to peter out soon, as he shifts to conquest. Of course, I can't be sure he even wanted to grow more. It is hard to read much from these snapshots. But it seems that neither player was pushing hard enough to expand overseas, either with settlers or vans.

    We were all fairly similar in terms of roads [about 80% of the cities in the homeland were connected], with a size-5 STC. Starlifter's had a library, while mine had a market, again pointing out our different values. I usually want gold, for growth, and expect science to come mainly from trade. Civ2 score isn't very relevant at this stage, but I was ahead 283 to 217 on that, and that ratio apparently grew in the AD years.

    BTW: I like getting to Monarchy ASAP, like everyone else. But even more than that, I like to build an extra city or two before 2000BC. I tried to start a debate on this at Poly in 04, but I was still a newbie, and nobody took the idea seriously. :)
     

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