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GOTM 16 Spoiler

Discussion in 'Civ2 - Game of the Month' started by noughmaster, May 9, 2002.

  1. starlifter

    starlifter Deity

    Jun 17, 2001
    It is very rare that I lose the Pyramids; If the starting position was more symmetrical with satellite (feeder) cities, I would have not lost it to the French. I had no warning that the French were about to complete the Pyramids, but I'll actually fight an early game war (e.g. diversion of resources) to get the Pyramids. BTW, once a city builds a wonder, you can use the "Find" function to locate the city...

    My post may have been unclear... I actually captured the Pyramids and Lighthouse... the other 4 wonder in AD0001, I built.

    Certain wonders are high priority for me in early game.... this translates into diversion of resources from expansion and even trade routes (except for the SSC's 3) in early game. And a tradeoff occurs, because I always tend to lag the good expansionist players early on, particularly in number of cities at any given point.

    Preferred early game wonders: Pyramids, Colossus, Marco Polo, Copernicus. If really forced to choose (like a big war ongoing), you have to take Colossus and Copernicus, since those can't be spread out if you want a SSC.

    EDIT: Added wonder prefs.

  2. starlifter

    starlifter Deity

    Jun 17, 2001
    LOL, my diplomat can swim! True, I don't have any boats... but I have a boat (singular). A trireme. And I did not have MapMaking, yet my trusty Diplomat crossed the water in my trusty Persian Trireme. :D

    How? Its the fallout of a larger strategy explained in other threads... I place no early game value on quite a few techs (they slow my research for Monarchy, Philosophy, and Trade). These include Warrior Code, HBR, Wheel, Construction, Republic (yup), and... Map Making. Instead, my Diplomats await Sea Barbs, and take their Trireme (if needed). All (or most) of my cities are protected by Dips in a central hub and spoke system via roads. When the barbs come, units converge (if necessary) and dips come in with open checkbooks. If necessary, even a temple can be sold for cash in a squeeze.

    Since this game turned out to have lots of land, and I was sending units down to the Celts, I had no need for additional sealift in the early going... nothing to transport so I passed on a couple other Barb triremes. And so in this game, I had only one trireme until the ADs. The trip to find the Pyramids took a long time, since the Lighthouse was not built yet. BTW, it is a very rare game that I possess the Lighthouse, since I never build it and place almost no value with it (or Oracle, Great Wall, and GL). I'm a strong proponent of the navy, but not ancient ones.... hence, I try hard to avoid MM and jump over it to Seafaring and Navigation. HBR can also be jumped, and sometimes even WC. :)

    It is interesting to note that normally I don't try a "Lone Ranger" kind of assault in the ancient age, at least to a faraway location, but the trireme and dip was all I could spare at the time. And as it turned out, the whole French civ fell in relatively short order! Which has me considering using some more othe the strategies of the early conquerors. The Zulus were a joke (one city, eventually taken with a Hut Chariot), and the Celts, taken with Dips, the same chariot, and a vet archer.
  3. starlifter

    starlifter Deity

    Jun 17, 2001
    Outstanding! Exactly! Except remove the caveat of "home area".... I won't digress here, but I actively hunt barbs all over the map, and in particular bribe the ones attacking the AI... they become NONEs. As the game progresses, almost no ship is without a Dip, and in a process I call "trolling for barbs" (outlined in posts last summer, along with screenshots from GOTMs), scoop up as many NONE units as possible.

    In general, I avoid bribing AI triremes, especially with lots of raging hordes barbs to choose from. That's simply because the AI ships are usually more expensive. During my Celt campaign, I noticed an orange trireme go floating on its merry way, but my dip could have snagged it. Still could not justify a navy yet, though.

    No barbs attacked my capital, but at least three waves appeared on the north shore...

    One more comment about techs.... for me, I like to get to Monarchy ASAP. That takes 3 prerequsite techs.... Alphabet, Code of Laws, and Ceremonial Burial (A, CL, CB). But it is not possible to research Monarchy on the 4th tech due to the way the game makes tech available to the human (yes, there is an exact pattern). You will be forced to choose a "junk" tech. You can probably guess what my junk tech is (Writing). If you don't get the order right, you won't have Monarchy as a choice with tech #5.

    Here is one pattern:

    And here is the most common (esp if you start with A):

    Instead of Wri, you can choose BW, MM, Mas, Mys, P, or WC.

    Very important note: if you have free advances, this pattern can change, depending on the number of free advances you start with. But get to Monarchy ASAP, and do an Oedo revolution between turns (That is, when presented with the option to change gov't upon the discovery of Monarchy), if possible :).
  4. starlifter

    starlifter Deity

    Jun 17, 2001
    Starlifter Log, AD 0001 thru AD1000:

    AD 0001 Demanded Tribute from French-WAR! Took Paris (17g, Math); Tours-Revolt 108g (rebate=7g, Poly); Cordoba-Revolt 218g (rebate=18); Mopped up Barb Ldr; Greeks- Peace; Gave Philosophy & Wheel to Swap Maps (they refused Alliance). Sioux - Tributed me 200g for CF; Peace; Gifted Sioux ALL techs except Engineering; Swapped maps.

    AD 0020 C-Astronomy; Astronomy; S-Monothiesm; AdvTribe-Ghulaman; Monarchy Unhappiness is now a major issue. Slim Buttes is now Barb.
    AD 0040 Bribed Barb Archer(61g); Killed Ldr
    AD 0060*Tours Def Barb Archer; Killed Ldr; Bribed 2 Barb Chariots (61g), Killed Ldr
    AD 0080 COPERNICUS OBSERVATORY. Discoveries every 7 turns now (102 bkrs).
    AD 0100 PRB'ing Caravans. Chasing Barbs down. Monothiesm in 4 days, will take Republic from Sioux when they get it. Preparing for Republic. Renamed all cities to std trade convention.
    AD 0120 A01 (Persepolis) grew to size 6 (One Scientist); SSC=72, Total Sci=120b/6T. Last French Defender (Warrior) attacked my Archer. Took empty Marselles, which did not revert to anarchy. KILLED-French. HUT-Feudalism. Demanded Sioux leave my territory; they withdrew and I subverted Three Forks (Full of troops) for 102x2=204g. Got a 50g rebate, and city is not in anarchy. Sold all but 1 barracks.
    AD 0140*Re-shuffling for upcoming Republic/Democracy. Ready for MC.
    AD 0160 Monothiesm; S-University. MC in 4 days. Disbanded & moved Carmethian.
    AD 0180 WAR-Sioux. Preparing to take 2 of last 3 Sioux cities in next 4 turns (Cedar Creek as Pet).
    AD 0200 Reducing Littlebighorn. Killed Ldr.
    AD 0220*MC next turn. Capture Littlebighorn (92g, no disorder). Took 300g for CF; refused peace.
    AD 0240 MICHELANGELOS CHAPEL. Subvert Wounded Knee, 108x2=216g (rebate 9g, sold Granary). Revolt-Barcelona 108g (rebate 9g, Iron Working). Spanish tributed 50g for CF.
    AD 0260 Killed Ldr near Madrid. HUT-Legion. Killed Ldr near Slim Buttes.
    AD 0280 University_S-Republic. Buy University (280g). HUT-50g
    AD 0300*Built University (72b to 104b).
    AD 0320 WLTKD ended (size 7); dropped from 104 to 88b. Building Shakespeare.
    AD 0340 Building Marketplaces & some harbors, courthouses.
    AD 0360 Ditto.
    AD 0380*Republic; S-Theology; REVOLUTION; Oedo-REPUBLIC; A04-A01 Gems 96g(rec). Est. about 6 new routes to make WLTC & help fund Mkts. Skipping SunTzu in favor of Shakespeare for now.
    AD 0400 Day00 0393 003.40/0080g/0176b/0186MT (20T/40S/40L) 35 cities. Senate forced Peace w/Spanish.
    AD 0420 Day01 0418 004.15/0082g/0185b/0203MT. Bribed Barb Chariot(61g)/Killed Ldr.
    AD 0440 Day02 0433 004.96/0082g/0205b/0200MT. Theology; S-Sanitation
    AD 0460*Day03 0453 006.03/0113g/0236b/0214MT. Killed 2 Ldrs. Science=4T now.
    AD 0480 Day04 0474 006.97/0114g/0243b/0219MT. War-Spanish. Sold barracks to fund barb ship bribe. Set 30/30/40 to raise gold.

    ----------------------- AD 500 ---------------------------

    Pop: 8.14M (Republic)
    Tax: 30% (201g/448b, cost=110g))
    Sci: 30% (212b, 5T) (30 Total Adv) (Advs cost about 900b)
    Lux: 40% (most cities in WLTC)
    Prod: 240MT (0T poll, 0 polluted tiles)
    Cities: 40
    Wonders: 9 (Ancient: Pyr, HG, Col, LH; Ren: KRC, MP, MC, CO, ST)

    Sioux: 1 city (size 2)
    Greek: 5 cities (sizes 1,2,3,4,4)
    Spanish: 3 cities (sizes 1,3,3)

    FORCES (Many are NONEs):
    31 Settlers (6 in prod)
    15 Warriors
    17 Phalanx
    8 Archers
    4 Legion
    5 Pikes
    8 Horse
    8 Chariot
    3 Trireme
    13 Dips
    3 Caravans (8 in prod)

    AD 0500 Day05 0504 008.13/0129g/0282b/0240MT.
    AD 0520 Day06 0516 009.01/0134g/0283b/0257MT. Sanitation; S-ToG
    AD 0540*Day07 0531 009.92/0139g/0294b/0267MT. CF-Sioux(33g); Peace; Gifted Sioux ALL my techs; Sci cost dropped 20%. 234g Gems A01 to A13 (rec). Pollution Icons now. Subvert Valliodad 56x2=112g(+9g). Kill Ldr.
    AD 0560 Day08 0534 010.32/0135g/0311b/0279MT. CF with Spanish expired. Bribe Sp Phal 62g, Grk War 48g, Sp Leg 120g (NONEs). Revolt-Seville(212g, +21). Stopping growths at 12 since no JS Bach yet. Sea Barbs (Legions) but no Ldr.
    AD 0580 Day09 0558 010.78/0141g/0316b/0300MT. Bribe Gr War, Kill Ldr at F11, Bribe Tri (81g), no Ldr.
    AD 0600 Day10 0573 011.70/0150g/0335b/0314MT. Banking; S-Economics. Sci=3 Turns
    AD 0620*Day11 0588 012.61/0165g/0346b/0326MT. Bribe Barb Horse (41g). Est Trade Routes.
    AD 0640 Day12 0604 013.19/0172g/0361b/0335MT. HUT-Nomad (N. Island).
    AD 0660 Day13 0619 013.67/0177g/0366b/0340MT. Economics; S-Invention; WalkIn Saragoza (9g). Revolt-Corinth 343g (+48, 10 Units, Disband most). Peace, Gift Greeks, Swap Maps.
    AD 0680 Day14 0637 014.61/0182g/0376b/0347MT. Sioux Sneak Attack (Killed my Warrior). Silver A01-A13 (230g Rec).
    AD 0700*Day15 0652 015.05/0185g/0382b/0365MT. Invention; S-Chemistry (get Engineers!). CK=Size 2 now.
    AD 0720 Day16 Senate Force CF & Peace with Spanish.
    AD 0740 Day17 Chemistry; S-Gunpowder. HUT-Nomad (North Pole). Funded A03 PRB Sewer.
    AD 0760 Day18 Needling Spanish. Building Courthouses & Mkts. Isaac N. next turn.
    AD 0780*Day19 ISAAC NEWTON; Gunpowder; S-Bridge Building. Start Leos. Bribe Barb horse (41g NONE).
    AD 0800 Day20 0767 017.83/0220g/0521b/0400MT. Bribed Sioux War, Sett (22,168g; NONEs); Hordes of Barbs to F08. Funded A03 PRB Bank (1st Bank!). Leo in 2 turns.
    AD 0820 Day21 BB; Start Explosives. Gift Sioux All But Gunpowder; Swap Maps. Gift Greeks 3; Map Swap; Cities: 3/3/4/4. Lost Chariot to Barbs. Sci=3T at 20/30%.
    AD 0840 Day22 LEONARDOS WORKSHOP. Lost Mtn-top Vet Phalanx to Barb Elephants! Killed Ldr. Assault on Madrid with Vet Legions CNX--Leos made them whimpy Musketeers.
    AD 0860*Day23 Explosives; S-Metallurgy. HUT-25g.
    AD 0880 Day24 Greek-WAR; Revolt Delphi 206g(anarchy, +111g); Senate forced CF & Peace. Tax 50%(727g).
    AD 0900 Day25 0886 022.58/0284g/0616b/0456MT.
    AD 0920 Day26 Metallurgy; S-Democracy (Oedo Timing); Barb Trap-Killed Ldr. Deliver 800g freight.
    AD 0940*Day27 Democracy; S-Conscription. DEMOCRACY. About 10 no-grow until JSBach. Set 40-20-40.
    AD 0960 Day28 JSBACH. Every city in WLTP day now at Lux 40%. Gift Sioux all but Gunpowder.
    AD 0980 Day29 HUT-50g.

    ----------------------- AD 1000 ---------------------------

    Pop: 30.83M (Democracy)
    Tax: 40% (906g/448b, cost=110g))
    Sci: 20% (447b, 3T) (43 Total Adv) (Advs cost about 1170b)
    Lux: 40% (every city in WLTP)
    Prod: 504MT (140T poll, 0 polluted tiles)
    Cities: 59
    Wonders: 13 (Ancient: Pyr, HG, Col, LH; Ren: KRC, MP, MC, CO, ST; Ind: LW, JSB, IN, AS)

    Sioux: 1 city (size 1)
    Greek: 3 cities (sizes 4,3,3)
    Spanish: 1 city (size 3)

    FORCES (Many are NONEs):
    45 Engineers (4 in prod)
    1 Musketeer
    61 Riflemen
    7 Crusaders
    11 Knights
    5 Triremes (All were bribed from barbs)
    17 Dips
    16 Caravans (8 in prod)

    AD 1000 Day30 1118 (413) 030.83/0460g/0848b/0501MT. Set: 40/20/40 (906g/448b). 59 Cities. No Nav research until no other option, due to trade bonus. Told Greeks to leave... withdrew units to Thermapylae, which was subverted (285x2 +132g). Sell barracks. Killed Ldr.




    World Mini-Map:
  5. Smash

    Smash Super Lurker Retired Moderator

    Oct 28, 2000
    Vancouver, Canada
    does hypersnap have an image editor?(screenprint gold does:D)..you need to sharpen those abit after resizing :)

    Do you know why a city falls into anarchy after capture and sometimes not?..is it the order in which cities report?
  6. Lucky

    Lucky Game- and Quizmaster

    Nov 6, 2001
    Amazing and unbelievable. :goodjob:
    I just looked back at my saves and even though I know that this was one of my worse GOTMs, your log looks simply fantastic.
  7. Smash

    Smash Super Lurker Retired Moderator

    Oct 28, 2000
    Vancouver, Canada
    Ya know,I had the same thing!..I got a message that the Sioux were about to finsh them.I hit enter and bang.."Le something completes Pyramids".Poor Sioux had nothing to switch off to.Probably got a 100 odd sheild phalanx.Screwed up a small invasion plan I had :confused:
  8. starlifter

    starlifter Deity

    Jun 17, 2001
    Trade note.

    For those following trade and PD discusions in other forums, this illustrates some of the strategies. Note the suthern bend of the Continent. Ideal for ensuring you know the game path for the trade routes, both to and from the SSC (A01). In particular, I used 3 A03-A01 routes, and therefore got the 50% road bonus for both the delivery and the recurring trade value. The roads also are in effect for A02, A13, A14, A15, A16, and A17. But not (for example) A04 and A05. I have not had the spare resources to road those routes... but if so, the value would jump from 6g per turn per route to 9 g per turn per route (in the case of A04).

    BTW, note the G's on the caravans... most caravans are in continual motion from production, and come from the farthest reaches of the original landmass. They establish routes with A01 (the SSC), or help build wonders. Most cities are connected by road, so transit time is minimized, but faraway cities won't get the road bonus because the road path is not correct. :).

    One can also note the Diplomat, asleep but patiently awaiting the next barb incursion. He is protecting the entire core empire; Similar dips are scattered throughout the empire. Caravans can be used to blockade/defend in an emergency, too.

    Other notes: A17 is being held at size 12 for overlap and gold reasons (its ultimate destiny is as a 16-tile size 29 city); for A04 and A05, it is not yet cost effective to buy their improvements for sustained further growth. Terrain must be improved, and other things are getting the resouces.

    Final note. When starting the game, I decided to found my SSC on the spot because of the early and mid game power it would have. It will not be the best SSC in late game, but the burden will be shared by other cities by then. Nevertheless, even with transformations, this city will be destined for a size 42-11=31 city.... which will not set any SSC records for science output, LOL! It can produce 64 arrows (after transformations), plus about 16*3 arrows for the 3 domestic routes (no AI cities will be large enought to trade with), bringing the ultimate output to about 112 arrows.


    EDIT: Ooops, forgot the map segment of my core empire.
  9. starlifter

    starlifter Deity

    Jun 17, 2001
    By Smash:

    Yes, to image editor (basic one :) ). About the sharpness, this is due to selecting a low quality, but high compression JPEG (55%, with 4:4:4 compression). I use this so that teh image sizes remain small and the page downloads quick. In some cases, I use GIF, because it is well suited to graphic images with contigious pixels of the same color value (like graphic screens and the PG, though JPEG can still compress about 3 times more at 55%). In short, I make and test several images before deciding which to upload... with emphasis on compression :).

    I am not sure about the Anarchy issue. I've had hunches, and presumed it was connected to late game and possibly city size and/or power differential, but two empires were giving me "working" cities. However, captures/bribes since then have been back to the expected anarchy. In short, I have not tested to find out why... if anyone knows for sure (e.g., can describe the way do make it happen for sure), I'll bet we'd all like to know!
  10. starlifter

    starlifter Deity

    Jun 17, 2001
    by Lucky:

    I have not played Civ in almost 9 months, but I will say this map has been fairly easy, mainly because the AIs were not aggressive at all (presumably because their empires seemed slow, likely due to their starting locations in my guess). I'm not a big early-conquer player (in GOTMs), but I'll press a weakness (meaning to slow trade and even wonder construction) to strike juicy targets.

    I will note, however, that I've made lots of little mistakes (particularly in city settlement timing and patterns) along the way, and early game little mistakes tend to amplify later...

    BTW, I take time to post detailed logs so newer players can see just exactly how certain strategies and thinking goes... of course, really good players like yourself might pick up some ideas too... which is what the GOTM is for: encouraging GOTM play and improving everyone's game, while having fun!

    Personally, I view it as encumbent (but of course voluntary) for players (esp. the more experienced ones) to help the rest of the Civ2-ers, which is what is so good about the forum aspect of the GOTM. :) I remember reading Smash's OCC logs about a year ago, and recall how that helped me learn OCC... a very conter-intuitive game! And in fact, my use of logs stems from looking at how the OCC world helped new players see how the game is played, instead of just saying "I landed a SS in 16XX" and leaving it at that.

    BTW, I find GaryNemo's logs to be fun to read! :goodjob: I remember noughmaster used to post nice logs, too... but I know time is an issue. Personally, I just keep Wordpad open, and try to add a yearly comment or two after each turn (Use ALT-TAB to switch quickly). Be sure to save regularly, or you'll lose your commententary effort! Ugh!
  11. starlifter

    starlifter Deity

    Jun 17, 2001
    Log Decoding...
    (and a plug for Republics)

    When I switch to Repbulic or Democracy, I keep special track of certain interesting parameters, and these might be confusing when crammed toghether. Here is the day the Republic was established (Day 00):

    AD 0400 Day00 0393 003.40/0080g/0176b/0186MT (20T/40S/40L)

    This decodes to:

    Year 400 AD
    The days (turns) since Rep/Demo establishment.
    The Civ Score
    The Population
    The Gold Income (gross)
    The Beaker Production (Science)
    The Shield Production (MT is synonymous the # of shields generated)

    The TSL (Tax Sci Lux) setting reported in Day 00 is the "norm" which will be used for all further status lines (unless explicitly noted later in the game). This means I may set TSL to other things, but will set it back to the stated value and record the numbers so the progression has meaning and continuity. I do not "set and forget" the sliders (see posts in other forums for details).

    So in this example, the population is 3.40 Million, 80 gold gross, 176 science beakers, 186 shields (MTons).

    For doubters of Republics and Democracies, study the progression of civilization resource output as the cities grow. For those that think it's a waste to "squander" resources on Luxuries (I use at least 40% and sometimes as much as 80% in early Republics).... the payoff comes a few days later.... take a look at Day 15, for example:

    AD 0700*Day15 0652 015.05/0185g/0382b/0365MT.

    BTW, the asterisk denotes an Oedo year. In 15 game turns, the popluation has gone from 3.4 Million to over 15 million (compare to Power Graph). The gold income is more than doubled. The science output is doubled. The production is doubled.

    But the real power simply does not show up in statistics. Every caravan gets at least 80 gold, and some get close to 300 (with proper demand). This is not possible at this point in the game without large cities and careful choice of science. :eek: One needs to carefully watch and understand the trade system to know what to get for what city when, to keep it growing to a given size... particularly in faraway Republic cities, due to loss of arrows because of corruption. This is why courhouses are a necessary improvement in many cities :).

    In less than 30 Game Turns, the empire is able to sustain (for short periods) one advance per day. By Industrialization, that rate will probably be sustainable; and moving towards 2 per day no later than Automobile.
  12. Old n Slow

    Old n Slow Emperor

    Feb 4, 2002
    Vienna, VA, USA
    I'm impressed. Starlifter is back and the challenges are great to read.

    (I'm also running true to form--) I'm in the 1920's & finally have the required (!) pet purple city. Still don't have enough cities, so I need to work on that. Still haven't tried the gifting yet -- also following the flawed strategy of developing the empty islands first, then founding the cities en masse to avoid the barb/defender concerns. I think that better planning would improve this.
  13. LordValuna

    LordValuna High Lord

    Apr 14, 2002
    Hamilton Ontario Canada

    I thought the idea on those islands is to attrack Barbarians, (not avoid them totally) to get NONs and 150 gp per Leader!
    :mutant: :ninja:
    After all, if you can beat up the Celts with their Military Industrial Complex, a few Barbarians shouldn't be a problem :) :nuke:

    ps. if you dont want too many Barbs , build cities near all the huts, sort of treating them like specials, if possible, to get 2 huts from 1 city then pop the huts. No Barbs PROMISE. No Nons from huts either.:( . But you have an instant garrison for the island, and should easily be able to handle the Barbs.:viking:
  14. starlifter

    starlifter Deity

    Jun 17, 2001
    Starlifter Log, GOTM 16, AD1000-AD1500

    Note: To give more detail, the uses the SCSC (Starlifter Civilization Shorthand Convention). You'll probably get the idea of what it means as you read :). I can make a key if anyone has trouble (or really reads all of it).

    AD 1000 Day30 1118 (413) 030.83/0460g/0848b/0501MT. Set: 40/20/40 (906g/448b). 59 Cities. No Nav research until no other option, due to trade bonus. Told Greeks to leave... withdrew units to Thermapylae, which was subverted (285x2 +132g). Sell barracks. Killed Ldr.
    AD 1020*Day31 Barbs landing all over.
    AD 1040 Day32 Leadership; S-Tactics. 1st Polluted Tile. Spice A01-D01 279g (rec). Spanish declare war, Persians come to their aid (War). Persians immediately ask for CF, which Senate forces. Accepted their 250g for Peace (not ready for attacking anyway, due to fighting barbs).
    AD 1060 Day33 Killed Ldr; reducing Spanish. HUT-Total Barbs-Mix of Knights/Musket (Dip is Dead Meat).
    AD 1080 Day34 SUN TZU. Tactics; S-Fundy (only choice).
    AD 1100 Day35 1404 (442) 051.05/0668g/1040b/0576MT. Set: 40/20/40 (1309g/549b-3T). Fundy; S-Nav. Gift Sioux All but Fundy (Fundy=NEVER). KILLED-Spanish (16g). A01-D05 record: Gems 366g.
    AD 1120 Day36 Nav; S-Amphib War.
    AD 1140 Day37 WAR-Greek, Killed Legion stack.
    AD 1160 Day38 Amphib Warfare; S-Physics; Working on Banks, Sewers.
    AD 1180 Day39 Capture Athens (32g); Senate forced peace; Subvert Sparta (224x2, 24g back); KILLED-Greeks
    AD 1200 Day40 1640 (456) 065.34/0836g/1163b/0686MT. Set: 40/20/40 (1617g/606b-3T). Physics; S-Magnetism. HUT-100g. Killed barb caravel in open ocean (5 units).
    AD 1220 Day41 Gems D00-G01, 300g (rec for non-A01). At the moment, I can hardly spend all the gold fast enough. It is just flooding my treasury, ohmygosh.
    AD 1240 Day42 Magnetism; S-Lighthouse; Building own Galleons now, barbs are drying up. Gifted Sioux 4 techs-All but Fundy (ABF) (note-it is unwise to gift an AI Fundy, LOL).
    AD 1260 Day43 Steam Engine; S-Electricity. RR was option, but delay to get trade bonuses. Roading some forests for RR now. Trade Note: 41 caravans, 36 in prod. Need Refrig to pump up Eng to make RRs soon.
    AD 1280 Day44 Sioux graciously gave me a nice 180g NONE engineer, LOL; back to size one for them. Slim Buttes (Barb city) stopped making horsemen... now it is Knights (bribed Knight, 82g NONE). Wish I could build them a Factory, PP, & MP to crank out more, LOL.
    AD 1300 Day45 1823 (459) 077.84/1076g/1291/0753MT. (Reset to 40T/20S/40L) Elect; S-Atomic Theory. Gift Sioux-ABF. Just noticed I have 45 banks, but best trade city of A01 never built one-Too busy with wonders, LOL. City Note- except A01, all idle citizens are Taxmen, not Elvii or Sci. Gold=Grow. 1st Cu Deliv (A01-G02, 298g). Proper trade becomes most difficult from this point in the game thru Radio. 1st time more gold than I can properly spend. Lots of food caravans; All food to Core for upcoming expensive wonders. Setting up sea trade business, frontloading improvements.
    AD 1320 Day46 STATUE OF LIBERTY; Atomic Theory; S-Refrigeration. Gift Sioux ABF. A01 Pollution (13 PIs, 2nd skull of game, Engs tied up in Mtn Transform, can't clean now ugh). Plan to lose HG and KRC soon. PRB A01 Bank to 100s, then 1T SM next turn, then 2T SE. 35 Freight left, 40 IP, deliv about 4-10 per turn. Big switch to Engs (10 freight to Eng next turn) and Supermarkets (Prebuild 15, Code=SE). Change Ai2 Mkt to Destroyer (IRB for 155g; 1st AI Frigate seen moving northside.
    AD 1340 Day47 Refrigeration; S-RR. Braced for RR's triple whammy. Killed Frigate X5, and any Ldrs (Dest almost dead, unbelievable). Will begin making coastal defense Destroyers. Supermarket will usually be 1st city improvement now, drop everything (inc. most caravans) for Engs and SMs. Reverse SM and SE order in A01 (shield mult=34 for 2T SE). PRB Engs, RB SMs, Short of gold (G's and H's mostly unfunded), Drop Sci to 0 Lux to 30% (3985g @ 70%). Most cities in 1 to 5 food deficit due to RBs and Forest citizens as taxmen; it literally pays 6g per food at crunch time.
    AD 1360 Day48 14 SMs, 75 eng, releasing some cities back to caravans. G04 got 1st farmland. A01-H01 coal 350g (darned good for coal). A02's new eng finally come to embarrassing SSC pollution aid, LOL. Mtn transformers must be sandbagging it. Converting Taxmen to Engineers. General rule - city gets SM, city owes me (the liege lord) 2 engs, LOL. Money about right.
    AD 1380 Day49 1st SE in A01; IRB A01 SM, then PreBuild Darwin. Note to self: do not to concentrate more than 50 or 60 wonders in one city. B07 (AKA moved Carmethan) is a natural PreRR 27s city & hidden 4-special; could eventually make one vet Aegis per day. Most gold to IRB, PRB engs (79 eng, 35 in prod). Bi2 is first city to get IRB imp (SM). Huge science limit bust with freight (stupid), RR next turn. Sci cost = 3*486=1458b. Empire's science output now=3b, SSC=SGC (Super Gold City). Migrate to RR/Ferry system for caravans.
    AD 1400 Day50 1945 (452) 085.66/1245g/1355/0804MT. (Reset to 70T/0S/30L). RR; S-Ind. Will time Darwin to follow Ind, and catapult to Corp and Elect, because pollution will soon be killer. Almost all cities Celebrate 40%L! IPRB many Engs. 88 Eng, 31 in prod. RR links are top priority. Stockpiling gold.
    AD 1420 Day51 Making RR Links, Engs, some caravans; Irrigation & Farms postponed. Eastern RR/Ferry ready.
    AD 1440 Day52 Caravans complete Ind bkrs; gift Sioux ABF. Darwin ready and Hoover almost. A01 Mtn finally transformed. Now T to plains via Eng stack. 3rd skull, this one by B06, no prob.
    AD 1460 Day53 Indust; S-Corp. Pollution now 350MT. "Let us quickly build a factory! "We are falling behind in productivity." Sorry, advisor... No expensive factories done till Hoover. Gold=factory for now. Main trade RR spine done; as cities are linked properly to A01, the route values jump 50%, typically from 9g to 13g or 14g. Roads+RR rule trade. No caravan deliveries allowed till Darwin & Corp. Science=0. Darwin done. 29 caravans, 19 in prod. SSC will be stripped of shields (hills to plains) to make more trade. Starting factories in some trashier cities. 1st Oil produced (A13), but no one wants it, so into the Hoover Dam it will go. Most big cities have Oil option now (Ind=Oil). Found stupid map border in West when a GOTO Tranport took off wrong way. East and West ferries set; west rail incomplete.
    AD 1480 Day54 DARWIN. Corp; Steel; S-Electronics. Semi-disaster. Electronics was not offered after Corp (Commie and Steel). Need Offshore Platforms, and Steel is the way, so took it. Need to reshuffle some freight. Advances cost 3*542=1626b; Gift Sioux ABF; Sci cost=3*522=1566b. Sioux and barbs have been quiet of late. Cutting back on Engs, starting Factories. Bungled a 7 stack hill transform and a 4 stack forest RR in one turn (very very rare for this to even happen once, much less twice). F01-A01 Silk-606g (rec).

    ----------------------- AD 1500 ---------------------------

    Pop: 97.48M (Democracy)
    Tax: 70% (4185g, cost=749g))
    Sci: 0% (3b, 531T) (Advs cost about 3*531=1593b)
    Lux: 30% (most cities in WLTP)
    Prod: 903MT (470T poll, 1 polluted tiles)
    Cities: 79
    Wonders: 17 (Ancient: Pyr, HG, Col, LH; Ren: All; Ind: LW, JSB, IN, AS, DV, SL; Mod: None)

    Sioux: 1 city (size 1), Republic
    All other AIs are extinct.

    FORCES (Many are NONEs):
    136 Engineers (4 in prod)
    66 Riflemen
    20 Cavalry
    2 Destroyers
    9 Transports
    16 Dips
    33 Freight (18 in prod)

    AD 1500 Day55 2100 (449) 097.48/1480g/1567b/0903MT. (Reset to 70T/0S/40L). Hoover next turn.

    NOTE: This game will not last much longer due to impending deadline :), and my lack of time. Expansion is slow as cities are perfecting. This is a game that really makes me wonder if the AIs always play so whimpy when pressed so early in the BC years... or maybe because of only the Emperor level. I kept buying certain happiness improvements too soon because the empire was too happy (e.g., buying a Colosseum at size 14 when if could wait till size 15 or 16). The sioux will soon face a quick end to their wretched existence....

    PS, Your eyes do not deceive you. My Expensive SSC often sits idle about this point in the game to to the very high demand the empire has for Gold. Engineers want it. Freight wants it. Sewers and banks and lions and tigers and bears oh my.... its just never enough after industrialization.... and the factories are not yet built (but they are mostly funded now). In fact, the whole empire is producing a whopping 3 beakers per turn.... the Freight is carrying the load. Literally.
  15. starlifter

    starlifter Deity

    Jun 17, 2001
    I'd better post something for those who may not be familiar with some terms I use from posts on Trade, Democracy, etc.

    Without getting into a truly length dissertation :crazyeyes:, shield production and gold are not left to chance... and excess shields when something is built should be minimized. Also, in GOTM 16, I don't think I've built an improvement since the BC years (this is typical in fast-moving games).... yet cumulatively, the cities have several hundred city improvements.

    How is this possible? This is because gold is converted to shields for improvements in my Empire starting with Republic. But I don't just simply click the "buy" button in many cases. Well, there are several specific methods I use, and they recur a lot so they have names:

    RB - Rush Buy
    PRB - Partial Rush Buy
    IRB - Incremental Rush Buy
    IPRB - Partial Incremental Rush Buy

    Rush Buy is where you just click "buy" and convert gold to shields to fill the prod box. Unless you are building an improvement with a low-producing city, this is wasteful of shield production on the completion turn.

    The PRB is the answer. Take the Sewer. Say the city produces 11 shields. All I need is a few shields dribbled into the production box, then RB a colosseum. Now there are 100 shields, at a cost of 89x2=178g (shields cost 2g each for improvment rushes). But the Sewer costs 120 shields. So Simple. Wait 2 turns, and a 3-turn Sewer is produced with only 2 shields of waste. If you have a non-RR'd forest, on the 3rd turn, when the PB is filled to 111 shields, convert the forest worker to a taxman, and you get six gold for one food, and no waste (Pyramid Power :) ). But.... don't forget to reset your production next turn.

    But what about units. Things change because of cost fluctuations. Suffice it to say for now that the cheapest you'll pay for a row of shields is 25g, or 2.5g per shield. The more you buy at once, the more expensive it is. So the answer is the IRB. Say you want an Archer. I never do, but you might. The city makes 3 net shields per turn. Let the PB fill to 3 shields, then change the production to warrior. Buy. It will cost 16g, Then change to Phalanx, cost 25g to RB. Then change to waht you really want, the Archer, and RB for 25g. Total cost is 16+25+25=66g. If you had tried to buy the archer all at once (the archer RB), it would cost 90g. You saved 90-66=24g, and its called the IRB.

    The problem with the IRB is that it wastes shields. You can rearrange citizens, but will still likely waste shields, esp in bigger cities. The answer is the mighty IPRB. I do this with caravans and engineers a lot. Assume city makes 13s (that means "13 shields", not plural of the number 13) per day. With the IRB, you would waste 13 shields (or 24 "improvement gold", or at least 30 "unit gold"). So take advantage of that 10 multiple and IRB to just the Phalanx, then switch to Archer. 20 shields in the PB, plus 13. Waste of 3. But we can likely do even better. Make a taxman with a forest worker, and the cost is really just 16-6=10g and you get the archer a day sooner (in 2 days instead of 3). So you've just spent a measly 10g and one food to speed up Archers by 33%!

    I'll leave it to you to consider how cheap it is to build wonders with IPRB's and PRB's caravans vs. clicking "buy" in the constructing city. Also, think about the breakeven point when that caravan is used in trade. Trade values go up as time goes on, but costs remain the same. In late game, a 3,000 gold freight (large map, properly delivered) will also give 3,000 beakers.... yet what was that insiginficant IPRB cost??? And how many Battleships or Nukes can 3,000 gold IRB in one turn? :eek:

    For advanced thinkers, esp. non OCC players: consider how you can apply this info to Wonder construction, and the space race. Hint: which is a "better" city to build a Module, a 50 shield city or a 20 shield city?

    Anyway, that's some notation you'll see in the log a lot. Here are some more:

    ABF means "All But Fundy", and refers to gifting a weak pet civ. Generally in context, "Gift ABF". Don't wanna gift Fundy to a pet, hehehe....

    S- refers to Start, as in "Physics; S-Magnetism"

    Capital Letters: Gov't changes, Wonder Completions, and Hut popping is capitalized since these are often interesting items is a sea of details. e.g., HUT-50g means the hut gave 50 gold.

    rec or (rec) refers to a new Trade Bonus record for the current game. Generally in context: F01-A01 Silk-606g (rec). This means the source city was F01, destination was A01, cargo was silk, Trade Bonus was 606 gold, and it was a record delivery.

    Day 39 (for example) refers to the number of days (game turns) since Republic or Democracy. This is to help keep track of how things are doing, and is a notation I used long before even finding the Forums when the growth of Democracy amazed me (which it still does, compared to Mon/Com/Fun).

    MT is Metric Tons, and translates directly to total shields (production) of the empire (it is in the Demographics screen).

    T (as in 420T) is Tons, and is the tons of pollution. Divide by 10 andyou have the number of Pollution Icons (PIs) (Yellow Triangles in City Status) from all your cities.

    Ldr - a Barb Leader. Hunt these down, trap them, make 150 gold (as long as Smash gives us Raging Hordes!!). He gave us Restless in GOTM 17, which is only 100g and will likely slow down some early work by those that hunt barbs.

    Prebuild - generally means to start building something, like a wonder, expecting to switch to something else when a new tech occurs.

    * - (An asterisk) When after the year at the beginning of a log's line, it is an Oedo year.

    Oedo year - The year gov't come out of anarchy following a revolution or collapse. Also when the PG (power graph) is updated. Named after the guy that figured it out and posted the explanation.

    Ferry - a transport residing in a city (or nearby) that can make it to a city on another continent in one turn. With RR, this is quite powerful.

    Chain - moving the contents of a ship from one ship to the other in mid ocean. 2 or more, at intervals, can make a chain.

    Crunch Time - Something large scale (affecting much of the empire) and significant has to get done, quick. These can vary in each game, but some Universal Crunch Times are Auto (get all those SHs built on following turn), Mass Production (all those MT's built in that huger Democracy just as pollution is ramped way up), Radio (Airports). Typically, around Refrigeration and RR, too (making lots of Engs).

    SM - Supermarket
    PP - Powerplant
    RC - Recycling Center
    SH - Superhighways
    SE - Stock Exchange

    and so on.

    KRC - King Richard's Crusade
    HG - Hanging Gardens
    MC - Michelangelos Chapel
    HD - Hoover Dam
    UN - United Nations

    and so on.

    Well, that a start for anyone who was wondering :).

    EDIT: Fix a few typos and spellings, and format for easier reading.
  16. starlifter

    starlifter Deity

    Jun 17, 2001
    Well, I don't think I'd call that "flawed". There are lots of way to play Civ, that's part of what makes it fun. I'd call some strategies "higher scoring" or "faster finishing", but hey, if you whoop up on the AI by 2020, it can't be flawed! I once had about 400 polluted tiles after a particularly nasty nuclear war (not a GOTM of course).... not a flawed strategy, though lots of cities were quite small and the score was.... well not worth mentioning :D. But it worked!

    Actually, the empty island strategy is one I hadn't thought of. I usually just expand to either good land, or the path of least resistance, or both. Raging Hordes means the Barbs will find you anywhere pretty quick, and the AI, well, fortunately (or should I say unfortuntlely) has very little strategic sense... So maybe you should post a summary of how it went if you have time! Everyone should post (you don't have to make it as long as mine or GaryNemo's), but it is fun to see how others did and how they did it! :)
  17. Old n Slow

    Old n Slow Emperor

    Feb 4, 2002
    Vienna, VA, USA
    I'm a sort of careless player -- only anal sometimes. My Barb city worked out very well, so I think I'll try it again (drop a couple of Settlers & dips off far away where Barbs are spotted -- they 'take the city' -- & then sell themselves).

    GOTM 16 drove home the lesson that I tend to build too few cities (probably pre-develop too much). Hmmmm only one of many things to work on.
  18. LordValuna

    LordValuna High Lord

    Apr 14, 2002
    Hamilton Ontario Canada
    Must be one of those trick questions !? Answer: 20 without looking, but I think I get the idea.
    Comparing to a chess problem to an actual chess game, In an actual game I would make the 50 shield solution (not even considering the 20):cry: and looking at it as a puzzle, would find the 20 shield solution easily.
  19. GaryNemo

    GaryNemo Settler from None

    Feb 14, 2002
    Ohio, GMT-4
    I finished and submitted to Matrix. Many thanks to Starlifter, LordValuna, Lucky, Smash and others who have critiqued my technique and amplified on important strategies. I don't understand them all, but am planning the new gotm17 for Diplomats.

    I still think Hanging Gardens, Pyramids, Mich and Bach are the way to grow, er... go.

    My log shows that I learned Industrialization can be a polluting pain in the arse. I escaped the pollution and nearly doubled my population in the last 8 turns, consumed all money and Freight, left the landscape littered with my glorious Army and Engineers.

    1796 AD, many Barb Dragoons land near Altin TeKbr! Kandahar Kbr Barbs didn't advance? Avignon didn't kill our Explorer...
    27,420,000 pop in 76. $377-86= 291, Sci 853/3, Mfg=587 S=1192
    6 Sewer, 6 Bank, 21 Aquaduct, 1 Univ, 1 Supermarket, 4 Barracks
    1798 AD, French Legion killed our last Explorer... Cannon blasting Rheims' Pikemen. Stormed Rheims. Didn't talk w French.
    29,420,000 pop in 79. $414-95= 319, Sci 887/3, Mfg=599 S=1239
    1800 AD, disc Artillery, choose Refining for Mass Transit over Electronics etc. Altin TeKbr survives last Barb Dragoon, hunting Leader, need Alpine troops here! 31,500,000 pop.
    1802 AD, Avignon fires on our Riflemen, who survives! 33,570,000 pop. Cannon storms Avignon. We send away King Louis. Destroyer blast clears way for wounded Cavalry to capture Cherbourg. Barb Ldr captured $150. And the other Barb Ldr, another $150. 3 French cities remain.
    33,990,000 pop after capturing Avignon.
    1804 AD, disc Refining, choose Combustion over Gravity. WKLT @30% is winding down 35,280,000. I just read about Pollution , means I should have never discovered Industrialization! Oh well. 40,40,20%
    Destroyer pounds Dijon, capture it and plunder 17 gold.
    1806 AD, 37,820,000 pop, Score=1431 40,50,10%
    1808 AD, French have nearly completed Sun Tzu! Cavalry reduce Grenoble. Thinking of ending the game next turn, take Sun Tzu, rushing to clear forests to avoid further risk of pollution.
    42,280,000, 57 Engineers +8 in production S=1483
    1810 AD, French complete Sun Tzu, we built Oracle.
    46,070,000 Captured Marseilles Sun Tzu, Grenoble, French destroyed. I'm making a half-hearted effort to consume my Engineers... and selling old French City Walls...
    1812 AD, built Eiffel Tower with remaining Freight.
    52,650,000 pop, Score 1298 +420 +25 = 1743,
    52,650,000 pop, Score 1413 +420 +25 = 1858 @00,100,00%
    Sioux destroyed. Xerxes the Wise 185%
  20. Old n Slow

    Old n Slow Emperor

    Feb 4, 2002
    Vienna, VA, USA
    The cheap way out is to say "it depends". If the 20 shields are due to the Offshore platform of a size 20 island...I see the point with all the arrows & corresponding funds. On the other hand if the candidate is a size two city with a coal mine, well...

    So let's see if I have this right. The way to quality is paved through quantity. Rather than max the science rate all the time, instead (at the appropriate times of course) lower that rate, instead:

    a) Raise Lux for WLT__D & have a greater population to generate beakers (OK: we're on board for this one)

    b) Raise the tax rate to PRB, iRB stuff -- (Libraries eventually, maybe later than expected) starting with Settlers who make cities which are at the core of the rest of the solution set. :eek:

    Almost intuitive.:grad:

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