GOTM 166 Spoiler

[Ali Ardavan]

-0475 50g from hut.
-0450 Philosophy -> Monotheism -> Republic. Theveste founded.
-0425 Marco built. Philosophy -> rivals -> maps. Lyons is a barbarian city. This is not a great map for early landing because there are very few islands and most everything is on continent 1. Will go for conquest.
-0400 Saguntum founded. French -> 0g, Sioux -> 50g.
-0325 Wool to Sioux Tlat for a disappointing 36 establishes the first trade route. Akragas and Naples founded. T7L0S3
-0300 French -> 100g. Sioux -> 0g. T4L0S6
-0225 Republic -> Iron Working. Aztec, Sioux -> 0g. French declare war over my demand for tribute. Issus founded. Aztec Texcoco razed. Republic established. T3L3S4
-0200 French elephant kills an archer. Beads to Sioux Teo for 108. Rusucurru refounded as a canal between lakes 2 and 5. Trireme takes advantage of the canal and delivers Hides to LittleBigHorn for 120. T3L4S3
-0175 Michelangelo built. 5 new cities celebrate. Rushed Crusader kills French elephant and turns vet. Elephant lost in attack on Tenochtitlan; must have city walls since the defender was a warrior.
-0150 Barbarian uprising near the former site of Texcoco. Boat rescues my elephant and explorer allowing the barbarians to attack Tenochtitlan if they wish to. Lost a crusader on Orleans
-0125 Barbarian leader for 150g. T3L6S1
-0100 Barbarian chariot dies in attack on Tenochtitlan. French build Pyramids in Orleans; good thing my attack on the city failed. Now I can buy it and get Pyramids. Cannae founded.
-0075 Iron Working -> Bridge Building. Orleans bribed for 366g. Got Pyramids, 45g, Horseback riding, barracks, and Phalanx. 100g from island 5 hut. T3L4S3
-0050 Banking from island 5 hut. Legion from polar hut.
-0025 Barbarian chariot bribed for 61g.
+0001 Sun Tzu built. Senate hands peace to French as I was about to attack Marseilles. Math from hut.

Status at +0001
Population: 2.8M; Cities: 26; Techs: 25; Government: Republic
Gold: 6; Cost: 3; Trade routes: 0D3F;
Wonders: Hanging Gardens, Pyramids, Marco, Michelangelo, Sun Tzu
Units: 8 settlers, 3 warriors, 1 Phalanx, 1 archer, 1 legion, 11 pikemen, 1 chariot, 1 elephant, 2 Crusaders, 5 Trireme, 3 diplomat, 4 vans, 1 explorer
Goals: Conquest of Aztecs and French, Theology, Sanitation
French: 4 cities, 19 techs
Aztec: 1 city, 12 techs; war with me
Sioux: 4 cities, 19 techs

 

[Peaster]

Like others I got no respawns. This makes me wonder if restarts were off to begin with? There is no way to check that after the fact. I suppose those who know how to hex edit can decipher it but is there any other wa y to do it?

Even if there were to be restarts, they would be easy to deal with as island 5 was about the only place they would end up. There were no other big islands and most everywhere else was settled.

My game had one respawn. The Sioux defeated the Aztecs, which returned as the Spanish, which the Sioux also defeated. I did not see all this happen, but I had to defeat a purple city named "Madrid" so I am 99% sure my report is correct. Madrid was to the south on the main continent. There were Sioux/Aztec cities near island #5 on my map which probably deterred a respawn there.

I don't know an ideal way to decide if restarts are on, but I guess you could replay the turn that you defeat your first AI, again and again, until you get a restart or you feel sure they are off. Studies have shown that you do not always get the same result when you replay a conquest like this.

You could do this faster using Cheat mode in 4000BC, if you are the mod.

 

[Inkerman]

Regarding whether restarts yes/no, as I have sent in my files, I was able to check the .sav file and confirm that restarts are on.

-0175 ... Elephant lost in attack on Tenochtitlan; must have city walls since the defender was a warrior.

I am puzzled, is there not a sure-fire way to know about walls?

 

[Major Advantage]

The end is in sight (probably tomorrow).
During the next 500 years (which were rather uneventful), our civ grew some more and got prepared for fundy-conquest:

40 Kreta founded (on island 5, all cities there will be named after Greek islands), Verona, Salamis founded
60 Chem->(hmm, what now??) Construction; we will go for zoom-to-fundy and then conquest
80 I feel like we had republic too early
100 Rhodos founded (on island 5)
(Sioux-Aztec war)
120 Hamburg founded
140 A settler built too early has to re-settle back into Theveste
180 Construct.->Engineering; Prag, Salzburg, Bergen founded; update AI maps, none invites us to war
200 Delivery for 80; Venedig founded (Connecting seas 3&2)
220 Raise Luxuries beacause...
240 Rusicade builds Shakespeare and celebrates; deliveries for 48, 12; Mailand, Ghent, Pisa founded
280 Engin.->(straight for Fundy? We might want Feudalism/Sun Tzu first...)->Banking; Dublin, Toronto founded; get Banking from Aztecs
300 Reasearch Feudalism (sanitation and bridge-building are not that important in this game); Samos, Korfu founded; delivery 54; bribe barb Legion in Aztec territory for 82
320 Kos founded
340 Deliveries 114, 136; New Utica (channelling @21,15) founded
360 Feud.->Theo; delivery 96; celebrate for 1 more turn, then more taxes and science; grab barb leader for 150g
380 delivery 100
400 Copernicus built; lux down to 20%
420 Theo->Invention; North Pole founded; plan Sun Tzu in Neapel
440 Bach Cathedral built; Raise science to 70%, switch to fundy in ~4 turns
460 Inv.->Demo; Mykonos founded
480 Sun Tzu built; Delivery for 66

Stats at 500 AD:
pop.: 7.31M; Cities: 52; techs: 33; gold: 48; Gov.: Rep; wonders: HG, Pyr, Colossus, Michelangelo, Sun Tzu, Copernicus, Shakespeare, Bach; TR: 6D/7F
units: 12 settler, 11 warrior, 2 archer, 1 legion, 1 horse, 8 phalanx, 4 pike, 3 crusaders, 4 boat, 4 dip, 11 vans
Goals: Zoom-to-Fundy next turn, then conquest: Take the capitals and bribe the rest; build all available wonders; about 10 turns should be enough
Aztecs: 2 cities
Sioux: 4 cities

 

[Ali Ardavan]

Thanks Peaster and Inkerman. I was concerned that I made a mistake and posted the wrong info on the game. I am glad that was not the case.

My game had one respawn. The Sioux defeated the Aztecs, which returned as the Spanish, which the Sioux also defeated. I did not see all this happen, but I had to defeat a purple city named "Madrid" ...

You could do this faster using Cheat mode in 4000BC, if you are the mod.

Regarding whether restarts yes/no, as I have sent in my files, I was able to check the .sav file and confirm that restarts are on.

I tried finding out by looking at the initial save in cheat mode, but could not. How do you do that?

I am puzzled, is there not a sure-fire way to know about walls?

There is. Lazy me did not look. Once I found out they have no defensive techs, I was too eager to attack with my two elephants thinking that is all it takes.

 

[Peaster]

I wasn't very clear. I meant that you could use Cheat mode to create strong friendly units near an AI, to repeatedly conquer it in 4000BC. It would be faster than my other idea, if you had not played much of the game yet. It sounds like Inkerman knows a better method, but I don't.

 

[Inkerman]

Restarts yes/no

You could start a game on a fixed map twice, once with restarts = yes, once with restarts = no, but with everything else the same. In each case save the game immediately, and then compare the two files. If there is only one difference you would infer that was how the game remembered whether restarts were on or not.

Alternatively if it could be controlled via the cheat menu (it cannot) you would cheat, save the game, alter the setting, save it again, and then compare the two files.

I first got interested in this and learnt a bit more when we had a problem with the Classic version locking up on the first Sherwood Forest Map (GotM 121.)

On a much larger scale this is how players such as Samson worked out for example the "key civ" mechanism which we use all the time.

For most common questions, including restarts, others have gone before and the results can be found on the net so you don't have to do the actual test yourself.

Thus the answer is that I looked at the place in the savefile where restarts yes/no is stored - the lowest order bit of the 14th byte as it happens.

One final thought, in case any less regular visitors come this way and wonder how we manage to play comparison games when there's such a cheat capability, the answer is we just don't do it (until we have finished, when investigations might be done for learning), and it works for us thanks. My impression is that the regular players are scrupulous about this principle.

You might think that inspecting the lowest order bit of the 14th byte could be done whilst still playing, but the answer is I would then have a certainty about the setting that others do not have. Admittedly I think it very unlikely the setter would have got it wrong, but if he has it should be the same for everyone!

 

[grigor]

Greetings - a game after my heart - I got money and units early (but no AT until 2300bc) and was able to eliminate the Sioux - I got one respawn which delayed the end date by 450 years.

Preliminary analysis:
Small map. We have a river nearby, but no specials in view. No size 1 possible here
unless we can find a forest somewhere. Travel?

4000 move N to river – it continues 2 turns to a grass – let’s explore and see.
3950 River grass has no relief. Better found here anyway. Carthage at (50,14). Will need warriors for exploration without size 1 – maybe 2 of them.
3900 research BW. Science to 40
3700 Warrior. Move NE – forest!. Do I have time for Size 1? Maybe…
3550 Hut: 25g – now I can do it if I get BW soon enough. Work ocean to trigger BW
3500 BW => CB. Back to forest.
3350 Hut: Archers (Carthage).
3250* buy settlers.
3200 Size 1 settler!. Hut: NONE Archer (other archer near LBH - lets go!)
3150 Sioux: peace. They gift HB. Utica founded.
3000 Sioux: War. Kill warrior.
Status: 2 Cities, Despotism. BW, HB,, res CB. 2 Archer, 1 Warrior.

2950 LBH found.
2900 Archer attacks LBH defeats phalanx and becomes vet.
2850* LBH attacker immolates on vet Archer, thank you. LBH size 2. LBH captured, CoL. Sioux destroyed.
2800 Utica Horse. Explore E
2650* Hut: Horse (LBH). Tax to 40.
2600 Mongols destroyed by French, so there was one respawn. Malaca (4) production city
2550 CB=> Monarchy
2300 Hut: Caralis
2200 Monarchy => Curr.
2100 French: Peace, 50g. Revolution
2050* Gov: Monarchy
2000 Status: 6C, Monarchy, res Curr. 2 Horse, 2 Archer, 1 phalanx, 3 Sett.

1850* Curr => Trade. Aztecs: Peace, 50g. French: no tribute – War. Kill chariot.
1800 Cartenna
1700 Rusicade
1600 Trade => Poly (6 turns)
1550 Barbs appear in French area.
1350 Aztecs sneak attack Archer => vet. Poly => Pots. Science to 30
1150 Horse captures empty Lyons. Map Making
1100 Hut: barbs
Plan: MPE ASAP, then we’ll see.
Continue extreme ICS.
Goal: double cities (to 24)

1050*Barb almost defeats settler, but loses. Settler => vet. Ruscurru
Girba near Aztecs (13).
1000 Barbs land near exploring horse.
Status: 13C, 1 Sett, 2 Warrior, 1 Phalanx, 2 Archer, 4 Horse, 1 Ellie, 1 Trireme. Vans delivered for MPE.

975 MPE Only the French and Aztecs are left.
Aztecs: Alp, Writing, Pots, Masonry. 2 Cities.
French: Alph, 2 cities – no capital! Paris must be Barbarian. If I can get Writing from Aztecs I should be able to roll up French fast.
Contact Aztecs. Trade for Pots, Writing, and Masonry. Get maps. Aztec map reveals size 1 Rheims.

*****************************************************************
Rest and plan
Aztecs: need 2 triremes, 3 ellies plus archer, maybe vet, 1 dip unless they build walls
French: conquer with ellie and horse. Need some dips for barbs.
Need HG ASAP: 8 turns (775) is doable, but attack is more important. Go for 700.
Goal: conquer in 15 turns (600)
Want 25 cities. French have 2, Aztecs 2, so 8 more.
LBH, Canal, Rusicade, Cartenna, Leptis P, Carilis, Ruscurru, existing settler.

RB rows for elephants in Ruscurru and Girba.

950 res Myst
925* Barbs land near Lyons.
900 RB Elephant in Ruscurru. Boards trireme and off to Aztecs to join the other one from the ex-siox territory. Vet ellie near Lyons kills one barb,
825* Leptis Magna. Aztecs: War. Tenochtitlan captured. (Alphabet)
800 accept 100 for cease-fire with Aztecs. RB dip in Girba. Carthago Nova
775 Orleans (only one warrior) captured by Ellie and horse.
750 Oea.
725* Barbs near Malaca. Need to regroup fast. Carthage builds HG. Tingis. Teotichuan emptied and bribed. Aztecs destroyed. No respawn!
700 pay 50 to save Malaca. Russadit on South island. Rheins emptied and bribed. French destroyed. Vikes respawn. They are up north. 22cities.

Replan: need triremes for travel – 2 elephants should do it. Paris needs to be bribed from Barbs. What about LH?: that would allow attack with existing units. I will try both.

675. rush buy some lines.
650 Mysticism => Lit
625* Alalia. Hut: Nomads. Intrepid Trireme successfully crosses ocean!
600 Hut: 25g.
575 Vikes: War
550 Selinus
525* Barbs land near Orleans. Himera.
500 LH in Carthage.
Here is a true anomaly: exploring Elephant finds Indians, who are not not on my MPE screen! Elephant kills them, still no information. I have never seen this before.

475 Theveste. Hut: Literacy.
450 res Phil. Sagentum. Trondheim found. Paris bribed. Elephants and horses mop up barbs in France.
I conquered somewhere before 1AD.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

I conquered somewhere before 1AD.

Impressive. I conquered before 500 and thought I did pretty well.

 

[grigor]

Thanks Ali. My initial strategy plan was ICS with Peaster's high tax strategy, but I got archers early. I have learned that archers in the early game are like knights 2000 years later. So I changed to a lean wipe-out strategy, and eliminated the Sioux quite quickly. I judged that I would need Elephants to conquer the others, which may actually not be exactly correct. Elephants are sufficient but not necessary. (I will have to try an ArcherFest sometime...) And the capture of LBH when the AI attacked out made ICS especially easy until the elephants came online. I was very lucky not to get barbs until my civ was big enough to handle it.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

Here is the latter part of my log, now that it is clear I am not anywhere close to getting a green star (I rarely am).

+0020 2 Barbarian leaders for 150g each.
+0040 Marseilles subverted for 2x206g. Got 18g, archer, and settler. French declare war when I insist they move their troops.
+0060 Hides to LittleBigHorn for 140.
+0080 Bridge Building -> Theology. Silver to Tenochtitlan for 214.
+0100 Tours bribed for 225g. Got 28g, Phalanx, and 2 settlers. Rejected French offer of cease fire. Senate backed me up. Next they offered 100g and turned that down too.
+0120 Lost 2 crusaders on Rheims. Should have taken the 100g and simply bribed the city away.
+0140 Senate hands peace to Aztecs as I was about to storm their capital.
+0160 Gems to Sioux Tlat for 54.
+0180 Theology -> Chivalry. Domestic wine for 134 establishes the first domestic route. Provoked Aztecs into declaring war. Tenochtitlan rendered defenseless by two vet crusaders. Elephant walks in and captures freshly built Tlax for 26g.
+0200 Tenochtitlan captured for 58g, barracks, city walls, and harbor. Aztec civilization destroyed. No respawn yet.
+0220 Yellow is gone. Cloth to Sioux Tlat for 130. French archer killed.
+0240 French settle killed. Kish founded on island 6 as the first offshore city.
+0260 Canal3-16 founded.
+0280 French kill my crusader. Chivalry -> Wheel. French archer killed and the strategic fort it was garrisoning occupied. French elephant killed.
+0300 Domestic Hides for 88.
+0320 Silver to LittleBigHorn for 210. Medicine from polar hut. No-longer-demanded Beads to Rheims for 84. Iron Working -> Sioux -> Wheel, maps.
+0340 -> Astronomy. Salt to Rheims for 132. Two defenders of Rheims killed and the city taken for 61g and Marketplace. Barbarian Lyons bribed for 260g. Got an archer and 2 dips.
+0360 Rejected French offer of peace; senate backed me up. French kill a valiant warrior placed to protect the army behind it. Astronomy -> Engineering. 2 dips bring down Paris's city walls. French crusader killed. Lost a crusader attacking Paris and killed one of its defenders. It still has two more and I do not have enough forces. Domestic deliveries for 72, 80, 60. Revolution started. Little Big Horn attacked with an army of 4 units which all succeed in killing a unit. No units left to take the city.
+0380 French Trireme sinks mine. Lost a crusader on LBH's freshly produced pikeman before razing the city for 20g. Last defender of Paris killed and the city taken for 55g. French civilization destroyed. No respawn yet. Republic restablished. Domestic deliveries for 84, 60. Tlat bribed for 330g. Got 95g, barracks, and 2 units. T4L4S2
+0400 Domestic deliveries for 144, 70. Senate backs me up against the Sioux.
+0420 Barbarian legion kills my pikeman. Engineering -> Sanitation. Barbarian archer killed. Tlax founded. Domestic deliveries for 64, 144, 74. T2L4S4
+0440 Barbarian legion kills boat brought in to save the city. Freshly produced knight kill the barbarian legion. Domestic deliveries for 42, 104, 36. T3L4S3
+0460 Sanitation -> Invention. Teo bribed for 244g. T6L4S0
+0480 Senate backs me up against the Sioux. Colossus built. Niece founded. T2L8S0. Wounded Knee bribed for 114g. Sioux civilization destroyed. No respawn

 

[Ali Ardavan]

I have learned that archers in the early game are like knights 2000 years later. So I changed to a lean wipe-out strategy, and eliminated the Sioux quite quickly.

That is a very good point. With an attack of 3 and a defense of 2, archers are a formidable force at a time when most civs can only produce warriors. I always use them for exploration and defense but they can be used as a very effective offensive force against a nearby neighbor particularly if you happen to get more than one from huts.

 

[Peaster]

Nice game, grigor ! I will be very surprised if it does not win Green. Based on your clues, I think you beat me by about 4 turns.

 

[Major Advantage]

I was not aiming for green but going for gold. Final part of my game (I was almost perfectly right about the 10-turn-prediction):

520 Demo(revolt)->Bridge-build.; SoL built, establish Fundamentalism, T5S0L5; Wien founded
540 A lot of celebrations, now earning 601g each round by taxes; delivery 63; get Navigation from Sioux, demand tribute, get none
600 5 vet crusaders ready to hit LBH next turn, dips in position for their other cities
620 Sioux pay their final tribute, 150g; take Little Bighorn 22g, they hail us and demand 700g for peace ?! Bribe Wounded Knee 236(25), Slim Buttes 348(30), Cedar Creek 224(14), Sioux destroyed
640 Get Economics + 175g tribute from Aztecs
660 Adam Smith, Great Wall, Lighthouse built; barb leader 150; two more turns for final wonders
700 Great Library, Oracle, Maro Polo built; settle final settlers; discover island 3; attack and conquer Tenochtitlan (128), increase happiness and bribe Teotihuacan for 290; Aztecs destroyed! We conquered the world with 10.18M citizens and 18 wonders

Maybe I should have taken all but one city and had some turns of republic celebrations for score...