GOTM 17 Pre-Game Discussion

You should prolly update what HOF mod version the game will use :)
I'm new the GOTM thread, so apologizes up front for asking a stupid question. What is the HOF Mod? I got that it stands for Hall of Fame, but haven’t been able to find any details on it. Thanks in advance for the help.

-Jason
 
@DaviddesJ, if you wouldn't mind sharing this, I'm curious how you evaluate whether to accept the Challenger Class save in this situation. How does the extra tech affect your game? Are there benefits that you will try to take advantage of?

Excuse me to sneak in my opinion, although not asked for. In this game, the Challenger Class save is unfavourable if your aiming for a conquest victory or an early religion. For all other victories, I think Challenger enables an earlier victory date.

Regarding settling site: does it really matter if there is a sea resource to the west? The plains hill will provide the worker four turns earlier compared to settling on initial tile, and five turns earlier compared to the hill W/NW.

The most favoured candidate of opening sequence according to me is: settle on plains, build worker, research agriculture, then research mining, build scout, then build settler and research ???. I will call this sequence S1.

Now, if you settle towards a sea resource (lets call that scenario S2), and start with a work boat, you will get it it five turns after the worker in S1. The fishing nets will thus come on line on the same turn as the rice. Now, the rice is irrigated and provides as much food as clam and one less than sea. However, the worker then builds a mine in S1 while the S2-city builds a worker. My gut feeling is that S1 will get better production faster than S2, and will get the settler out faster than S2. Can someone prove me wrong?
 
In this game, the Challenger Class save is unfavourable if your aiming for a conquest victory...But why? I'm curious how do you think that through?

Regarding settling site: does it really matter if there is a sea resource to the west?
You're talking about a capital with 1 food resource that is also the weakest possible type of resource: +2f, +0g. This city will grow very slowly to its low limits. Furthermore, the plains/hill site only has 3 grass hills available for production. It's low commerce, low food, average hammers. Its only plus, to me, is the +2h in city center.

Why not S3--settle with 2 food resources and start with a wkr? Sure it pops 4 turns later, but relatively soon the city wiil overtake S1 when it gets the second food online. Plus, the food resource also provides +1-2g.

So it would seem to me, not having tried it out.​
 
@DaviddesJ, if you wouldn't mind sharing this, I'm curious how you evaluate whether to accept the Challenger Class save in this situation. How does the extra tech affect your game? Are there benefits that you will try to take advantage of?

The effects of the extra tech are really minimal, imho. The only significant difference is that it makes it less likely to get an early religion, if you go for that. Other than that, the effect may be mildly positive in that the AIs will be a little bit less behind and have slightly better technologies for trade. But it's such a small difference that I can't see it really affecting play much.

P.S. I'm not going to play this one, either way. If I did, I'd certainly play challenger, just because I find the game more fun when the AIs are less far behind. But it's not enough of a difference to motivate me.
 
The scout probably won't be much use without a galley to get it across the water.

The scout is only for fog busting. I want one unit to the north and one to the south. I also want to find a suitable site for the second city. It's all depending on the map.
 
The scout is only for fog busting.

Then why not build a warrior, which costs the same, can fight animals if necessary, can fight barbarians if one does happen to show up in a gap, and is also useful for happiness in your cities when you no longer need the fogbusting?

I just can't see the advantage of a 2nd scout rather than a warrior. Maybe I'm missing something.
 
You're talking about a capital with 1 food resource that is also the weakest possible type of resource: +2f, +0g. This city will grow very slowly to its low limits. Furthermore, the plains/hill site only has 3 grass hills available for production. It's low commerce, low food, average hammers. Its only plus, to me, is the +2h in city center.

Why not S3--settle with 2 food resources and start with a wkr? Sure it pops 4 turns later, but relatively soon the city wiil overtake S1 when it gets the second food online. Plus, the food resource also provides +1-2g.

So it would seem to me, not having tried it out.​

Regarding the extra tech from Challenger Class: If you're aiming for a conquest victory, you will probably want to focus on production, not research and exploration. You probably want to time the alphabet with contact with the AI. If you build an army, you delay alphabet and exploring ships. And you probably want a certain tech level of the AI the moment you want to trade with him. If you are too early with alphabet, you wont get much from it. The same is true if you're too late. I prefer to trade writing first to fill up the cheap tech, then alphabet for the more expensive techs. If I go for conquest, I will be too late with alphabet in Challenger Class. If I go for something else, Challenger Class is an advantage.

Regarding S3: You are correct that your city is better long term, but that was not my point. When does S3 generate a settler? The S3-worker is 5 (not 4) turns behind the S1-worker. The settler in S1 will start 10 or 11 turns after the worker, that is 5 or 6 turns after the worker in S3. You need 45 hammers for the work boat. You get 1 hpt for about 10 turns. Then you are at size two, 10 hammers into the work boat and about five turns behind the S1-settler schedule. Your mine will come online in another five turns, so at that time, you have 15 hammers into the work boat and I have ten turns of settler production. Without further estimation, I believe that the S1-city will be built a lot of turns ahead of the S3-city.

Am I wrong?
 
Then why not build a warrior, which costs the same, can fight animals if necessary, can fight barbarians if one does happen to show up in a gap, and is also useful for happiness in your cities when you no longer need the fogbusting?

I just can't see the advantage of a 2nd scout rather than a warrior. Maybe I'm missing something.

I forgot that Alexander is aggresive. The difference in strength on plains is 2.2 for scout against animals and 2.6 for warriors against animals. On hills/forests, the warrior is even better. So, you're your probably right, a warrior is better.

The only reason for the scout is that it moves faster, and is better at hut-popping. But the scout can be built later, so I'll go for the warrior instead. Thanks.
 
You probably want to time the alphabet with contact with the AI.

If you are too early with alphabet, you wont get much from it. The same is true if you're too late.

I don't understand this. I would expect to make contact with several opponents way before Alphabet. The issue, though, is that if they don't make contact with each other, then they will perceive a monopoly and not trade with you. That's not something you can do much about---but, if anything, extra techs will help accelerate them and make them more available to trade.

I would agree that if you plan to conquer an early opponent with axes or swordsmen, then challenger will probably be a bit harder. But I'm not sure that's the fastest route to an overall conquest victory. You can probably find several empty islands to build cities on. And, if you're going as far as macemen and catapults before launching a war, I don't think the early techs will make much difference.
 
I don't understand this. I would expect to make contact with several opponents way before Alphabet...

Yes, but "way before" is related to the time you get alphabet. So, in absolute years, the "way before" date will be earlier if you go down the research & exploration path compared to the Kill Them All path (which focuses less on research & exploration). My point was basically that cultural/diplomatic/space victories will be achieved earlier in Challenger Class compared to Contender Class, because you can trade for more tech in the BC-years. In the AD-years you probably have to gift tech to the AI anyway to finish early.
 
So, in absolute years, the "way before" date will be earlier if you go down the research & exploration path compared to the Kill Them All path (which focuses less on research & exploration).

I just don't see any difference. Unless you're planning to attack people super-early, your path of development in the early game is going to be basically the same either way. You're going to need contacts either way.

Actually, if you're playing for a space race, that might be a reason to defer making as many contacts, because you would like to be able to trade for some early, cheap techs without raising your WFYABTA limit with other civs. If you're planning on early conquest, then you might as well meet everyone, if you can. So that's just the opposite of what you said.
 
plains hill plus rice
worker - warrior - settler

turn 1 city size 1, work rice (+3f 2h 2c), start worker
turn 18 worker complete, begin warrior, start farm
turn 25 finish farm, work rice (+5f 2h 2c)
turn 27 worker does something else
turn 29 finish warrior, begin settler
turn 50 settler finished, start working on something else
turn 53 city size 2
turn 60 city size 3

grassland hill plus rice plus clams
worker - warrior - workboat - settler

turn 1 city size 1, work rice (+3f 1h 2c), start worker
turn 23 worker complete, begin warrior, start farm
turn 30 finish farm, work rice (+5f 1h 2c)
turn 32 start mine on plains hill
turn 33 city size 2, work rice & grassland forest (+5f, 2h, 2c)
turn 37 finish warrior, finish plains mine, begin workboat, work rice & plains mine (+3f 5h 2c)
turn 39 worker does something else
turn 42 city size 3, work rice & plains mine & grassland forest (+3f 6h 2c)
turn 46 workboat finished, start warrior
turn 47 workboat fishes clams, work rice & plains mine & clams (+5f 5h 4c)
turn 50 warrior finished, start settler
turn 65 settler finished

I'd say the advantage for the early game goes to the plains hill city. By turn 65, it has produced worker, warrior, settler and 15 turns toward something else - so production is roughly equal. However, the plains hill city gets a 5 turn advantage on the worker and a 15 turn advantage on the settler. If you allow the worker to chop, it favors the plains hill city even more.
 
Actually, if you're playing for a space race, that might be a reason to defer making as many contacts, because you would like to be able to trade for some early, cheap techs without raising your WFYABTA limit with other civs. If you're planning on early conquest, then you might as well meet everyone, if you can. So that's just the opposite of what you said.

I would appreciate it if you could elaborate a bit on that. I only have a basic grasp on WFYABTA.
From your words I extract the conclusion that if you trade techs with civ A, but you haven't still made contact with civ B, then the trade raises the counter towards WFYABTA for civ A, but not for civ B. Is that right?
 
From your words I extract the conclusion that if you trade techs with civ A, but you haven't still made contact with civ B, then the trade raises the counter towards WFYABTA for civ A, but not for civ B. Is that right?

That is correct. There's a counter for each civ. Whenever you receive a technology in trade, the counter is incremented for every civ that you have met so far.

This doesn't really make much sense, imho, but that's how the code works. It means it can be advantageous to avoid meeting some civs until later in the game.
 
I'd like to add a few thoughts on the map, and how it might affect the game.

I've been playing a few practice games, and also looking into WorldBuilder (though I haven't made a mock-up of anything approximating the actual start yet).

I have been assuming that ainwood hasn't modified the overall structure of the map too much from what would be generated. If I'm wrong on that one, then all bets are off of course, and my other assumptions are not going to work.

The map looks like one that would come from archipelago-archipelago rather than archipelago-tiny islands. The land is broader than normally appears on the tiny island setting, and you also scarcely ever find those small freshwater lakes except on achipelago setting.

Having assumed that, then the normal start islands are usually significantly larger than we can see here. (I know, I'm getting further off the track here, and the chances that ainwood has manually placed the civs is much higher than the chance of the land-masses having been greatly redrawn)
So, if we have a larger island, where does it go?
The south doesn't look good. As somebody pointed out, that is a tundra tile just visible to the SW. However, in many of the maps I saw the islands extended south through a tundra region to touch the polar ice. That wouldn't be nice, but I'm kind of expecting there to be some of that.
To the north, we can see coastline at the western edge, and (probably) to the north of the jungle tile, so the land evidently narrows to just 2 tiles at that point. We can see that the western of those 2 tiles continues north, but the eastern is divided by water. I think this water is where the river continues, turning east to the coast. This shape of island is not uncommon, and I would place a fair chance (maybe 60-70%) that our land broadens again to the north, allowing space for more cities. Of course, the jungle will begin about here, but that shouldn't worry a set of determined workers with ironworking.

Other things I have found from the typical maps are:

We seem to have plenty of smaller islands around to colonise if we wish, usually without competition.

The nearest AI is quite some distance away (as someone pointed out - 20 tiles or so) and I found you really have to make a concerted effort if you want to meet them early. I would guess a couple of workboats and a couple of galleys, too. Otherwise you can miss them and spend a tedious time mapping out the world wondering if you forgot to specify any AI at all!

You are almost certain not to have the resources you want on your home island. Maybe one of the hidden ones (copper, iron, horse) is all you'll get. Sometimes none. You'll often have to colonise nearby islands simply to get these resources.

I have found the AI travelling long distances to plant cities in my own backyard if there is a good resource there. This is just stupid, of course, as they just make themselves ripe for a quick and easy strike. If this happens in the real game I'll just welcome it.

As I said at the start, these could all be meaningless ramblings if the map has been manipulated unduly. Thought I'd let you know what I'd been up to, though.
 
Hmm. Seems one of those assumptions is definitely wrong. I really should check my facts before posting. :blush:

You can get those one-tile lakes on the 'tiny island' setting. In fact you get them quite often.

I guess I was just unlucky when I generated my tiny island maps for comparison (or I didn't look at enough of them before discarding them as an option).
 
plains hill plus rice
worker - warrior - settler

turn 1 city size 1, work rice (+3f 2h 2c), start worker
turn 18 worker complete, begin warrior, start farm
turn 25 finish farm, work rice (+5f 2h 2c)
turn 27 worker does something else
turn 29 finish warrior, begin settler
turn 50 settler finished, start working on something else
turn 53 city size 2
turn 60 city size 3

If you'd skip the workboat from the other scenario (Grassland Hill + Rice + Clams) and go with Worker-Warrior-Settler as well you end up with the same situation on turn 60 (or 61 as I get, either one of us is one turn wrong): City Size 3, Worker, Warrior and Settler. Plains Hill has few more turns into 4th build (I calculated that Settler comes on turn 57 on Grassland Hill city, but it's 56 if that one turn error is on my end) but Grassland Hill has better potential.

Turn 23: Worker, Start farming the Corn, Build Warrior
Turn 30: Finish Farm
Turn 32: Start Mining Plains Hill
Turn 34: City Size 2, Work Corn + Grassland Forest
Turn 37: Finish Mine, Work Corn + Mine
Turn 38: Finish Warrior, Start Settler
Turn 57: Finish Settler, Start Something
Turn 61: City Size 3

More and more I'm starting to lean on either settling to place or moving W. Definetely my scout will start by W-NW, I'm totally done with my exploring the south idea ;)
 
Could someone please tell me what WFYABTA stands for? I get that it relates to tradability of techs. Maybe I am blind, but I scrolled back and forth an still couldn't figure it out.
 
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