GOTM 36 Pre-Game Discussion

[DJMGator13]

Also need to check the cows to see if they are on bonus grass or regular grass. If on regular grass you could mine one cow and irrigate the other cow, mine the 2 BGs and counting the center tile you would still have a size 4 to 6 cycle four turn settler factory without moving and not requiring the river for growth to size 7.

 

[AlanH]

Unless ainwood has modified the normal rules, bonus resources are never put on top of each other, so I'd be extremely surprised if the cows are on bonus tiles. Since the factory works with regular grass, it doesn't matter anyway.

 

[Civgeek]

Building on the coast would only be important if you want to build something like the Colossus early.

London not on the coast? Pity.

 

[bed_head7]

Unless ainwood has modified the normal rules, bonus resources are never put on top of each other, so I'd be extremely surprised if the cows are on bonus tiles. Since the factory works with regular grass, it doesn't matter anyway.

I found examples of those in GOTM33 and COTM3.

 

[AlanH]

London not on the coast? Pity.

Rename it Slough

 

[AlanH]

I found examples of those in GOTM33 and COTM3.

Consider me extremely surprised

 

[bed_head7]

The game right near the start was in COTM3 was on a BG, I think, and somewhere in India or Korea in GOTM33 was a BG with a wheat on it. So they were really only cows in disguise.

 

[al_thor]

Why would you irrigate the cows on grassland? Does that really do anything for you in Despotism?

 

[bed_head7]

Despotism penalizes 1 food, shield, or commerce in tiles that produce more than 2 food, shields, or commerce. So grass (2fpt) plus irrigation (1fpt) plus cow (2fpt) - despotism penalty (1fpt), you get 4fpt when you irrigate instead of 3.

 

[Justus II]

Unless ainwood has modified the normal rules, bonus resources are never put on top of each other, so I'd be extremely surprised if the cows are on bonus tiles. Since the factory works with regular grass, it doesn't matter anyway.

The random map generator considers BG a (modified) terrain type, not a specific bonus resource, so it is possible to have other 'bonus' resources on top of BG. Similar to how enclosed coastal tiles give an extra food (freshwater) but can still have a fish.

 

[eldar]

It's an intriguing start, for sure. Settle in place - I'll have a no-shield coastal 1-food coast tile to deal with if London ever gets to such a size, but it probably won't.

As settler factories go, though, I've never managed one without fresh water - so care must be taken!

[Edit] Thoughts on initial moves... Scout S,S. Looks like there's more land that way. Worker E and irrigate, then irrigate through city (PtW) to the first of the two cows. Mine the second cow, then road/mine back along BGs.

A thought - PtW players will have the slight advantage of being able to settle in place and irrigate through their city. Vanilla/Mac players will have to move to the Grassland to be able to do the same.

Neil.

 

[klarius]

I will first move the scout w, to see more of the land across the water. Then n or s depending on what I see.
The settler will move adjacent to a cow, where depends on what looks better for developing a nice empire.
A cow in the nine will easily offset a settler move, so settling in place is no option for me.
Having two cows makes the irrigation not so urgent. I will look after settling what are the best worker moves.

 

[Roland Ehnström]

I would settle my first town SW on the coast, getting two cows in the initial radius for a super-start. I would irrigate one cow as fast as possible, bringing in water through the two G tiles SE and 2 SE from the start-tile, to secure the all-important 5 food per turn. Then I'd mine and road the other cow, the BG S of the start tile, and the G W of the start. With a Granary, this will be enough for a 4-turn 3-5 Settler factory (6+8+7+9 = 30). After switching to Republic, I would build a Temple (unless we have plenty of luxuries), a Marketplace and a Harbor in this city, while letting it grow towards size 12 (those irrigated grasslands will come in handy). It will be the back-bone of my economy, giving plenty of commerce and easily 20 shields per turn after mining the hills.

The second town will be founded E, SE of the start-tile. With at least 3 BG's and 3 G's, this town will bring 10 spt at size 6 once those tiles are mined (1 + 3*2 + 3*1 = 10), which is very useful early in the game. I will probably chop the forests to the SE (using the shields to build Barracks) before mining the underlaying G or BG, rather than build an expensive Temple to increase the city-radius. This town will be the center of my military-production early in the game.

The only downside I see to this strategy is that it will take a while to get the first cow irrigated (unless there is fresh water S of them). Building a second Worker in London very early will help a great deal.

Comments?

-- Roland

 

[AlanH]

A thought - PtW players will have the slight advantage of being able to settle in place and irrigate through their city. Vanilla/Mac players will have to move to the Grassland to be able to do the same.

I thought that at first, but count the worker moves. If you don't to any road building it's 4 moves and 3 irrigates to wet a cow via the hill city. It's the same if you send your worker SE, SE and irrigate from the river bend. The only way I can see to cut the irrigation time in either version is to move the settler 2 tiles. I think moving to the forest, as Xevious suggests, gives a big net food gain, but I'm going to do a spreadsheet

 

[klarius]

@Roland
I think you shouldn't only consider the capital. It's also important how the other cities will fit in.
But that can only be evaluated when more of the map is known.
Generally it looks like it will be better to irrigate both cows and share them between two cities.
This will mean a lot of MM, but will make the best use of the available food.

 

[Roland Ehnström]

I think you shouldn't only consider the capital. It's also important how the other cities will fit in.

That's actually why I don't settle to capital 2 S, as others have suggested. That to me looks like a better site for the capital, but it makes it difficult to make good use of the other land.

Generally it looks like it will be better to irrigate both cows and share them between two cities.

A good point, I didn't think of that. But thinking about it now, if you can only use one of the cows in a given town, you can not get 5 food per turn under despotism, unless there is another food bonus somewhere that we don't know of. I think 5 food per turn in one town and 2 food per turn in the other, is better than 4 food per turn in both towns. Especially if you factor in the extra shield from the mine.

-- Roland

 

[klarius]

A good point, I didn't think of that. But thinking about it now, if you can only use one of the cows in a given town, you can not get 5 food per turn under despotism, unless there is another food bonus somewhere that we don't know of. I think 5 food per turn in one town and 2 food per turn in the other, is better than 4 food per turn in both towns. Especially if you factor in the extra shield from the mine.

-- Roland

You can use both cows in one turn for +6 food and one cow the other, while a second city uses the other cow.
That gives 10 food in 2 turns for the first and 10 food in 3 or 4 turns for the second.

Edit:
I just saw another option.
Settling 1 se gives a 4-turn warrior-settler combo factory at size 4.6-6.6 as soon that there is a second town to block the second irrigated cow (and all BGs are mined).
Takes some time to set up, so may not be worth it if this is a small island.

Edit2:
But you can also have it simpler.
Settle in place and have one irrigated and one mined cow and three mined BGs. Work it at size 4.5 to 6.5.

 

[Megalou]

You can use both cows in one turn for +6 food and one cow the other, while a second city uses the other cow.
That gives 10 food in 2 turns for the first and 10 food in 3 or 4 turns for the second.

Good point, thanks.

Edit:
I just saw another option.
Settling 1 se gives a 4-turn warrior-settler combo factory at size 4.6-6.6 as soon that there is a second town to block the second irrigated cow (and all BGs are mined).
Takes some time to set up, so may not be worth it if this is a small island.

Edit2:
But you can also have it simpler.
Settle in place and have one irrigated and one mined cow and three mined BGs. Work it at size 4.5 to 6.5.

Aren't you forgetting that both these options would require an aqueduct?

My thoughts:

Unless I decide to go for culture 20K, I will move settler SW and have a tight build. Looks like a lot of cities will fit in at distance 3 from my spot. If the island is big, FP inland and palace jump could work well.

Build order warrior or scout, then worker, then granary.

Strong cities on the coast may be a small advantage. The first galleys can be hard to prebuild in corrupt cities since Map Making is normally a tech that I trade, so I don't know when I will get it.

 

[a space oddity]

You got to meet them before you can trade. Depending on the map it can take a while before they come sailing by. The trait combo of the English is excellent for self-researching MM.

 

[Renata]

@ Megalou -- why would those options require an aqueduct? In the second option, you're on a river even, and even in the first, I don't think you'd need to get to size 7 for the extra shields. Unless I counted wrong?

@ Roland -- you're overlooking one thing with your 2nd city shield powerhouse plan that you outlined above: you'll actually need 11 shields to make it work, because you'll lose one to corruption. If there's another bonus grass in the radius, though, you're golden.

Renata