GOTM 39 First Spoiler

jesusin · Feb 15, 2009

BLubmuz said:
In my first post in this thread i just said that...

Please be less taliban.

Please, edit the post I am quoting before I have time to ask DS to 'edit' it for you.

You are telling everybody what the tech pace of the AI was at a certain date well over 500AD. Please, do not. That's spoilerish information that may change the way other people play their games.

Excesive censorship? Well, I have a responsibility now. Can you imagine how many hours I've spent testing this game? I've put a lot of effort into this game, I don't want to have it spoiled for others. I prefer to be excesive than to be considered slack or lazy.

This is a friendly competition. Please everybody, let's try to follow the rules, they are not so hard, are they?

BLubmuz said:
@DS
DS, talkin'bout marines is not spoiler, even if they come after 500 AD.
Same just name caravels is not spoiler.

Telling what you intend to do after 500AD, without any reference whether you actually did it or not, is not spoilerish. Mentioning anything you found through caravels is spoilerish. Mentioning that you had caravels before 500AD is not spoilerish. Mentinoning anything that happened after 500AD is spoilerish.

If DS or any other player have infringed any of this rules, I'd really appreciate it if all of you players sent me a PM pointing it out to me, so that I can have the spoilerish info removed.

DynamicSpirit · Feb 15, 2009

BLubmuz said:
Talkin'bout panzers can be, but how can you imagine a so big continent without oil? and what if they came after some late conquest?

Please be less taliban.

The rules are pretty clear. Don't discuss events after 500AD.

I'm well aware that it is arguably an arbitrary rule (any date-based cut off is going to be arbitrary to some extent), and I'm also aware that some of what you wrote was sufficiently vague that in practice it what it gave away wasn't of much significance. However, the benefit of the fixed 500AD cut-off is it provides an easily understandable and clear rule, so that people coming to the spoilers know what they can expect to read here (and what they can post). I think that any less 'taliban' approach would quickly become very confusing and vastly increase the risk of people accessing the spoiler threads in good faith but then discovering information that they did not want to read in them.

I'm sure jesusin will open a final spoiler soon, in which you'll be able to discuss what happened after 500AD in your game (and anything you might have discovered using caravels/galleons etc.) to your hearts content. Until then, I'd appreciate it if you followed the rules for this spoiler. And you should expect that if you post something outside the rules then it's likely to be removed.

BLubmuz · Feb 15, 2009

@ jesusin and DS
The 500 AD is a break point like any other one, it's a tradition, and it's OK for me.

I expressed my appreciation to this map in my first post, and i'm sure it was a big work of testing, not only editing by J.

One of the funniest GotM i ever played.

Just i don't think some of my posts are (was) spoilerish.
The AI tech rate can be a "event" of my game, not necessarily of others.
The fact that i did the CS sling while eliminating the 2 AI on my landmass (or in the easily reachable part of it - i hope this is not spoilerish, otherwise, delete it) was probably a big luck, and win with 3 archers and a warrior vs/ an archer and a warrior was surely lucky.

Also popping MC from the hut N of Carib was surely luck, great luck. :blush:

IMO talkin'bout marines is not spoilerish.
Anyway, i'll try to strictly observe the rules even if it seems you have restricted them.

SirDrake · Feb 15, 2009

Settled 1 N and 1 E, so I haven't flipped Carib.

Lazy pagan infidel Americans & Mongols didn't found any religions.

And the icing on the cake (screenshot from 500 AD):

Faith moves mountains, but missionaries don't cross them.

For religious strategies, I'm looking pretty skrood.

-J

bestje · Feb 16, 2009

religions can spread along trade routes so eventually it will reach you, though as you say i'm not sure what help it will be

jefferee · Feb 16, 2009

I'm a little past 500 AD now (like about 1000 years past), but I'll look back at an earlier save file and report on the world as it was in 230 AD.

*Strategy*
I figured there would be a lot more ice than there actually was... I was envisioning some sort of iceball world outside of the capital sites. So I figured there would be some intense combat, and since the great German emperor jesusin

is philosophical, that the game might be well-suited to an attempt at a specialist economy, and a win by conquest. (Note: I have never before successfully done either at any level. So I'm getting learned. :crazyeye:

On further analysis, there's not really a lot of food on this map for a super SE. But I am well ahead on tech so I guess it's working. It's just weird having the tech slider at 60% to keep from going into the red.)

*Cities*
I founded Berlin one tile northwest of the starting location. The auto-help tipped me off by putting a blue circle on that location when I selected the settler, so I sent the scout in that direction, found the marble, and settled there.

Hamburg was built one tile south of the horses west of Berlin, after I researched Bronze Working and Animal Husbandry to determine that the horses were the only nearby military resource. It will be my military city, where I will build Heroic Epic eventually (at the moment, I don't care to delay building military units).

Munich is one tile southeast of the ivory, positioned to flip the north barbarian city (Saxon) and for iron access (it was built after I researched iron working). Saxon joined my empire somewhere around 0 AD. From here on in I intend to let other civs build my cities for me.

*Religions*
I founded two religions--Confucianism (I went as directly as practical to Code of Laws) and Taoism (bulbed philosophy with a GS). Roosevelt and Gengis Khan did not found any religions and have both converted to Confucianism. Saxon is the Taoist holy city, so I empathize, SirDrake!

*Tech, as of 230 AD*
-Currently researching Feudalism.
-Have Literature, Construction, Code of Laws, Philosophy, Monarchy, and Compass.
-Don't have Calendar, Currency, Horseback Riding, Monotheism, or Metal Casting.
-All other civs are at least 4 or 5 techs behind.

*Wars*
Genghis Khan declared war on me (I don't remember exactly when, but probably 0 AD or maybe even before) when I declined to give him mathematics. I have sent in two small stacks of units to pillage resources while building up a full-scale invasion force.

*Life on the far side of the world:*

Spoiler :

I'm terrible at warmongering, so we'll see how things progress.

Htadus · Feb 18, 2009

Settled on the spot thinking I will be able to get a free City soon after border pop only to realize I should have moved one south to effectivly do the job.

So the plan was to build the SH to help the process. This would give an early city and a prophet to bulb CS early enough to build a late Mids and GLH. My plan was all set in mud untill turn 1 when scout tell me Kahn is in our back yard. Change build to warrior but forgot to switch to archery. So on turn 38 we declare on Genghis thinking he will have two warriors and captured the fresh new worker he sent our way. The game was almost over when the Mongolian archer and warrior fought bravely.

Spoiler :

I had to make a choice with poor odds and I got lucky :eek:

That was close and was not very smart.

On with the game. Second city was founded on the PH south of the horse. My tech path was everywhere but my plan since I had intended on getting IW for the Gems and head to MC for Machinary via Oracle sling. Instead I spent most of my hammers into chariots and take out Washington since we are alone on the our continent and it would take forever for him to be friendly.

Washington gone on Turn 125/660 (625 BC). Oracle give Philo 4 turns after GP bulb CS (475BC) Not the as planned :mad:

. Finally in Turn 128/660 (580 BC) Carib flips. And we meet the French Lunatic and the Pompus English Queen....not the sweet philosophical gal.

OK it is time to learn Masonry but lets go get alpha first. Trade for Masonry and Sailing we are ready to build the Mids and the GLH. A settler and 3 workers are heading to the Stone site with rive access to Kara and we will chop the Mids. I do not think so said A Far Away AI Civ only after 4 turns of hammers. :cry:

Grrrrrr Oh yeah soon the English would complete the GLH. I am a Builder and need to build my Wonders. :mad:

It is only a game, Me reminded myself. I have no Idea where I was at, at that time.

Back to the game.

Carib built a Archer (Napolian is on the other sided), worker, workboat Grainary and the mistake HE. What was I thinking? No food....No food....No food. Jesusin need to keep his hands off the food

.

Anyways by 290 AD, my Special Forces Caravel, AKA WB, found the remaining PITA Queen and the Bloodthirsty Emperor. Oh yeah The northern Barb city is refusing to flip with the pressure from the Oracle, Lib, and a Monument....and even after chop building a University. So it was up to Axes and Swords to take it. This is where i wanted to Build my HE. Since I let the Barb City have the Wheat for itself, I know, I know,,, I placed my city 1 tile too far away to flip that Barb city which had 50% culture versus 40% in my Oracle City. Oh well bad call on my part. I should have setted on the same spot as DynamicSpirit did.

Hindsight: I should have settled the capital where DS and many others did on 1NW. And settled the north City next to the Barb city and build the Oracle or SH.

At 500 AD (T200), we have 10 cities and Moderator Action - post 500AD info deleted - DS I do not know. I am just not :scan:

ing my game well ahead but will likely go for a Diplo game with nearly 60 % land and Pop. Yes this is exactly how I get my accidental Domination wins. I think Blue borders must turn German white and whoever built the Mids got to go. I wonder if the maps will show?

By the way, what is up with Barb Axes and Swords? Who invited them to the party? And thank you to 3 star Archers fortified on Hillside forest and all the dumb Barb axes for trying to kill them

G'night and Happy Civing.

ceregon · Feb 20, 2009

I settled where I started because having 3 resources in a city seemed good. I figured that with my palace and creative trait I'd have no problem converting the barbarian city. I met the Americans and Mongols almost immediately, which scared me enough to switch from research emphasizing culture to focusing on a military rush. I founded a city close to the Americans by the small lake so that I could get marble, and figured that all the dye would be a nice bonus eventually. My third city was up north, mostly to get iron, because I panicked when I had no access to copper. I built lots of axes and swords and switched the initial target from America to Mongol because they kept founding religions and I didn't want their culture bonus to get too high, plus the Mongols had a lower score at the time.

The wars went well. My initial rush would capture the capital and 1 or 2 smaller cities, then I would demand early techs I didn't have in exchange for a 10 turn peace treaty. 10 turns was long enough to heal my units and position them to take out the remaining cities. I repeated the process with the Americans, capturing Washington easily, and then even got a remote city in addition to the techs when I made my demands.

I was bleeding gold at a rapid pace because of all the cities and the units, but capturing cities was barely covering my expenses. Since I was focusing on military strategies with my cities just pumping out swordsmen, I didn't notice an unhappiness problem, and then realized that I had never researched Priesthood when I got it from America, even though I ended up founding one of the later religions, and thus had completely missed out on building temples.

I have to admit I didn't like the map gimmick, because I ended up with a large army that I can't use on anybody else and now don't need. I somehow flipped the northern barbarian city early (and the poor lone archer barely survived the onslaught) I probably should have just razed the city and used the "great divide" for protection, but I was already committed to war. I'll just have to try to salvage my economy, disband a lot of my loyal troops and build up my side of the map. I don't understand the "cold...very cold...freezing cold!" line at all, because it's nothing like an ice age map. The artificial barrier could have just been mountain peaks on land and ice in the seas. I'm only at 500AD now, and despite my military success, I can't see myself doing well in the long run, but will try to finish the game up over the weekend.

Htadus · Feb 21, 2009

Htadus said:
At 500 AD (T200), we have 10 cities and Moderator Action - post 500AD info deleted - DS

I sincerly hope that no one's game was spoiled by me saying when I learned a certain tech and decided to build a very importent building.

Extream :sarcasm:

Hay DS, oops I meant DynamicSpirit are you going to go and delete every referance to how many turns are left for the current (as in 500 AD) technology to complete?
If I had said "I have one turn to finish <name of Tech> " do you consider that a violation of the posting rules?There were AI names mentioned in this thread that many probably did not know if they did not flip a barb city. Is'nt that a spoiler?

But seriously, FYI I made that comment on purpose to see if you would take moderator action. Because if you are going to do so, it would only be fair for you to restrict us from making comments as to what are we going to do in the near future or distant future. But discussing ones plans has always been part of the first post and loss of that previlage would be a sad event to be sure. So when I said I intend to build that certain National Wonder in a certain City of mine sooo late, I do not see how I spoiled someone elses game. Is it not the principle behind the posting restrictions: to not give information that would spoil someones game?

I believe I can keep on going but there is no use. I just hope that sensible Moderation will prevail over just purely black and white restriction. As for me I do not have to say anything beyond, "I am alive past 500AD" and be happy.

DynamicSpirit · Feb 21, 2009

Htadus said:
I sincerly hope that no one's game was spoiled by me saying when I learned a certain tech and decided to build a very importent building.

IIRC what I moderated looked to me like you were saying what you were doing 28 turns after the 500AD cut-off. There is certainly no problem with you saying what at 500AD you intended to later in the game, but it looked like you were saying what you actually did, which is spoiler info. If in fact you were merely saying what you intended to do, then I'm sorry for misunderstanding your post.

I would prefer not to keep moderating so much and would also prefer there to be some common sense involved, but given that so many people seem to be ignoring spoiler rules in this particular game (and I know jesusin is very concerned about that), I don't feel I have much choice but to rigorously moderate according to the letter of the rules.

Htadus said:
Is it not the principle behind the posting restrictions: to not give information that would spoil someones game?

Yes that is the principle. And if I've understood your post correctly, you seem to be hinting that posts should be allowed if they follow that principle (because the information they give away is unlikely to be significant) if they are against the letter of the spoiler conditions. I can see the attraction of that, but the problem is - who is to judge what spoiler info is significant? As an example we've already had a case earlier in this thread when BLubmuz posted some information that revealed some post-500 AI tech rates in his game. He thought that wasn't significant because AI tech rates would be different in different people's games. I think it was very significant because tech rates are likely to be partly determined by geography - and hence may be similar in different people's games. Who's right? Well, who's right on this occasion isn't really the point. The point is that there's clearly some judgement involved in which experienced civ players can disagree. An obvious conclusion is that if we moderated on the basis of whether information is significant, sooner or later someone will make a wrong judgement and give away some very revealing spoiler information because they incorrectly thought it was unimportant.

In the end, no set of spoiler rules is going to be perfect, but I don't see any way to implement a system that is better than the one we have, in which the limit is based on date and geography in a way that gives very simple, easy-to-understand, limits on what information can go in a spoiler. If you think there's a better way and want to discuss it, you're welcome to open a separate thread to do so

Htadus · Feb 21, 2009

DynamicSpirit said:
IIRC what I moderated looked to me like you were saying what you were doing 28 turns after the 500AD cut-off. There is certainly no problem with you saying what at 500AD you intended to later in the game, but it looked like you were saying what you actually did, which is spoiler info. If in fact you were merely saying what you intended to do, then I'm sorry for misunderstanding your post.

Your assumption is correct. I did indeed say what I was doing. But I can not see how a player saying he forgot to build a certain National Wonder (which an AI can not build and spoil it for the player) in a certain city in 2000 AD be spoiler information. I am sure I am not reminding players that they should not forget to build it since I am sure Gosha190 likely said that he built it in Bibracet :mischief:

in 3800BC

.

However, I can see your concern. say had I said I am building a late National Wonder such as Iron Works, that may be spoiler information, So I will cease and desist.

DynamicSpirit · Feb 22, 2009

Htadus said:
Your assumption is correct. I did indeed say what I was doing. But I can not see how a player saying he forgot to build a certain National Wonder (which an AI can not build and spoil it for the player) in a certain city in 2000 AD be spoiler information.

Indeed, I'm inclined to agree. But if I allow posts because 'I cannot see how X can spoil other people's games', then the border of what is and isn't allowed becomes fuzzy and ill-defined, which increases the risk of real spoiler information then sneaking through. Plus I suspect my PM box would quickly fill up with messages along the lines of 'But you allowed so-and-so's spoiler post. Why won't you allow mine?' Keeping a rigid, easy-to-understand boundary hopefully avoids those kinds of problems.

Htadus said:
However, I can see your concern. say had I said I am building a late National Wonder such as Iron Works, that may be spoiler information, So I will cease and desist.

Thanks!

da_Vinci · Mar 1, 2009

Thought I would take this one for a fast military victory ...

By 500 AD I am one city away from being uncontested on my continent (one city away from two civs eliminated may be more precise).

After which I plan to immitate Columbus, and go east by sailing west ... beeline Galleons and ship this highly experienced army off to war.

dV

GOTM 39 First Spoiler

jesusin

Ant

DynamicSpirit

Fear him of the pink tie

BLubmuz

HoF Quattromaster

SirDrake

Warlord

bestje

Big Game Hunter

jefferee

Chieftain

Htadus

A and L's dad

ceregon

Chieftain

Htadus

A and L's dad

DynamicSpirit

Fear him of the pink tie

Htadus

A and L's dad

DynamicSpirit

Fear him of the pink tie

da_Vinci

Gypsy Prince

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