GOTM 42 First Spoiler

[kcd_swede]

I see a lot of familiar things in these spoilers...

If all you losers actually submit your games... I might not have to take home the red ambulance after all!

 

[ssjos]

Settled EES - kinda nice spot at the river right E of the horses.

Earlygame i went worker - warr warr etc.

Tried to send out my warriors to get rid of the fog but sadly one of them lost early while defending in the forest. I had a shitload of trouble trying to keep my warriors out scouting and as I got chariots the barbarians started spawning archers and then a shitload of axemen.

Was really difficult to deal with the axes as chairs only are str 4 and axe str 5. I have been relying on using 2 chairs per axe or when possible getting the melee upgrade at 5 exp to actually have more than 50% to win the fight.

Anyway, most aggrivating . .. .. .. . was when my first (kinda early) chopped settler ran into a barbarian warrior- i had scouted everything around it but there was one tile of fog and I ran up to it and there was the barbarian :\

Economy has been running at 20-30% sience and research times are 30 turns+ - I have no tech.

After ~~500 BC i started getting settlers out at least and by 500 AD I had about 7 cities and just research CoL, also have monarchy but thats about it. Trying to cottage spam everything and hope my tech will pick up speed.

I doubt I can win this... the AI must be ages ahead as it felt like I actually started "playing" by 500 BC and not 4000 BC as usual.

 

[JerichoHill]

I see a lot of familiar things in these spoilers...

If all you losers actually submit your games... I might not have to take home the red ambulance after all!

I died later than you did, by a few turns.

Sorry chap

 

[Cactus Pete]

Challenging game . . . high level, limited resources, no one to trade with, and raging barbs. Glad to see early wipe outs submitted and posted. With many games like this, expect the participation would drop.

Barbs gave me trouble too, as did lack of commerce. Had to set up 4 GP cities (most I've ever used) to get ahead.

Notice that RobertTheBruce has a gold hill. I got one too in a different place and late. Curious if others had the same good fortune.

 

[cas]

Settled somewhere to the east by the horse, got out a worker, warrior and couple of improvements before the onslaught started. Improvements razed, holed up in the capital, attacked from both sides even though the eastern bulb of land was somewhat fogbusted. Made a last ditch effort to settle/fogbust the eastern land, but left one tile fogged and of course a axeman appeared there. Ridiculous, but expected.

Once the 2860BC? onslaught started, I wish I had only built warriors...just to see how long I could last with only capital and warriors. Intead I wasted hammers on a settler or two which just got shishkabarbed. I could have dug out of the barb mess by building GW or researching the dead-end archery path, but didn't feel like taking that long warmonger slog through this level. Lasted to 460BC with only warriors. That was my only fun in this game.

Kudos to all who actually finish and enjoy this one. Not my taste.

cas

 

[Deckhand]

With many games like this, expect the participation would drop.

well, one plus is it only took 16 minutes instead of 16 hours
although, it could be argued: what's the point and where's the fun?

 

[kcd_swede]

I died later than you did, by a few turns.

Sorry chap

Its OK... I deserve one of these red ambulances sooner or later anyhow. Just figured I'd get it in a game I take outrageous risks rather than a game I made pretty conservative choices.

I feel like luck was very much a factor in whether one gets established or not. But having read the spoilers, I think I would have had a lot of trouble winning an isolation game from these settings anyhow. Its better that I didn't waste a lot of time only to lose later. (..and the grapes are probably sour anyhow).

@Cactus Pete: Yeah.. a game like this every now and then is to be expected. If every game was like this, participation would probably drop off sharply. But variation is good. There's a lot to learn from mistakes made, so I hope there will be a number of spoilers explaining what people did in their second (unsubmittable) attempt.

 

[kcd_swede]

I could have dug out of the barb mess by building GW or researching the dead-end archery path, but didn't feel like taking that long warmonger slog through this level.
cas

Hmmm... Great Wall... now why didn't I think of that?
(Say, can we play this one in Warlords or BtS?)

460BC with only warriors is pretty damn impressive compared to what I managed.

 

[kcd_swede]

well, one plus is it only took 16 minutes instead of 16 hours
although, it could be argued: what's the point and where's the fun?

Yeah... if you know the basics, there aren't really THAT many tactical decisions that you can make in 47 turns. There are only so many openings to choose from.

I've thought about replaying because it looks like a real challenge just to win this game. But I hate playing maps I already know, so I doubt I will.

Oh well... the BOTM should be out in a week or so.

 

[Markus5]

Oh well... the BOTM should be out in a week or so.

Huzzah!

I was pretty angry after the first part of the game. I'm used to having raging barbs coming from one or two places and some choke points to handle them. In this case, they came from all directions of the the compass. Too much, too soon. And I was pretty angry that there was really only one early set of moves that was productive. If you didn't research AH first, it was almost impossible to get horses hooked up. As I said earlier, 3 warriors guarding a worker isn't enough. And I was pretty angry that there weren't very many resources - no copper, iron, gold, silver, gems, etc. The only way to get happiness was to tech (slowly) to monarchy and garrison troops (who really should be fog-busting). And I was pretty angry that there was no production. Use the whip or get lucky enough to tech (slowly) to the point of building workshops.

It was like the map designer wanted to throw down as many obstacles as possible and see who was lucky (or clever) enough to make the right early decisions and then could work through the limited options available.

The only good part is seeing the ways people have overcome the obstacles. I'm looking forward to the next spoiler.

 

[cas]

Hmmm... Great Wall... now why didn't I think of that?
(Say, can we play this one in Warlords or BtS?)

Oh, ya...

Been playing all 3 CivIV variations lately. Ok, could not have dug out with GW since it didn't magically appear until Warlords. Still could have gone archers, but I was enjoying warriors too much.

cas

 

[titanvol]

I feel like luck was very much a factor in whether one gets established or not.

I would have to agree. I feel like the reason I am still alive is because I researched ah first, (because of pigs / sheep, in addition to hoping for horses) & the wheel immediately after to hook up those horses. & bw right after to whip out the chariots. furthermore, in the early battles the barbs did not pillage my resources but rather attacked my capitol & i only lost one warrior. definitely more luck than skill in the opening sequence.

 

[dr_s]

I disagree that luck was largely the determining factor in this game. I see lot's of spoilers that indicate (to me) that players weren't really adapting their opening to raging barbs. With raging barbs you can't (at least I can't) build worker first and then think that you can rely on your improvements. There was plenty of good territory around for fog-busting and defending (lots of forests around capital).

 

[cas]

@ dr_s & titanvol

If the first couple of barbs had attacked my capital like titanvol leaving the horses intact, I could have got out 1-2 charriots quickly and the barb problem would have been solved. So luck can be the determining factor with the same sequence of techs/builds.

But there were definitely ways to cope with the raging barbs in this game that did NOT rely on luck.

This is the same reason I dislike huts in general. Anything that adds to the rng factor increases the luck factor.

cas

 

[Conquistador 63]

I feel my earlier post wasn't very informative, so I'll try to amend it a bit. Scouted went W-S, settler SE-NE and I settled EES (riverside, E of horses) on the 2nd turn to be riverside and have sheep, pigs and ivory in BFC. AH or BW 1st? A gamble, but with the visible resources, I chose AH and got lucky. Even more so, settling by the river I did not need a road to horses but needed wheel for the chariots anyways. BW was next to chop/whip, regardless of copper availability.

I built worker/warrior/chariot, finishing the latter just when 1st barbs were entering my land. But then luck frowned upon me as my chariot died in its first battle vs a warrior. Horses were then promptly pillaged and I had to depend on a handful of warriors hiding in forests and the capital vs archers/warriors before I could rebuild the pasture. Believe me, it took me a while and was a considerable challenge.

In retrospect, had I chose to tech BW first the outcome could have been the same. Settling right next to horses, autoconnecting it through the river was nice, though. After I survived the initial waves nightmare, I decided to invest a lot of hammers and unit upkeep money for a very comprehensive fogbusting. Maybe overkill, but kept me alive until this spoiler's cutdate.

 

[Markus5]

After I survived the initial waves nightmare, I decided to invest a lot of hammers and unit upkeep money for a very comprehensive fogbusting.

What was the worst for me was the very early (it seemed) appearance of barb axes. I couldn't keep the horses connected long enough early enough. I ended up investing in lots and lots of archers, then when they could escort workers, I kept horses connected.

 

[Cactus Pete]

I disagree that luck was largely the determining factor in this game. Don't think good luck is required, but loosing multiple barb battles when odds are with you can negate good play. I see lot's of spoilers that indicate (to me) that players weren't really adapting their opening to raging barbs. With raging barbs you can't (at least I can't) build worker first and then think that you can rely on your improvements. If you don't research AH and build worker, you can't pasture and connect the horses and build chariots. Might be able to survive without worker first, but would argue it is still the optimal tactic. There was plenty of good territory around for fog-busting and defending (lots of forests around capital).

Yes, defending forests rather than attacking was the way to play it with warriors.

 

[titanvol]

I disagree that luck was largely the determining factor in this game. I see lot's of spoilers that indicate (to me) that players weren't really adapting their opening to raging barbs. With raging barbs you can't (at least I can't) build worker first and then think that you can rely on your improvements. There was plenty of good territory around for fog-busting and defending (lots of forests around capital).

actually now i might have to agree with you and disagree about the luck, when warriors were approaching in the direction of horses i had a warrior (later an archer) in the forests that the barb would meet before getting to my city to raze the horses or attack the capitol, they would of course sacrifice themselves on my fortified warrior. Barbs from the other direction would of course attack the capitol rather than taking a couple extra turns to get to the horses and pillage. I did, however, build worker first.

 

[Yamps]

Contender save. Goal: finish a game on time for a change. And win by Domination 'cause that's most fun anyway.

First, I have to say that this is one of the most annoying maps I've ever played... Erkon, didn't you forget to put a few things on the map with all that food, like:

• happiness resources
• hills
• copper

I've also spent quite some time guessing if iron is removed as well, there's no certainty at all that there is any around and I still don't have IW to tell. That's very problematic for potential invasion plans...

All in all, really crazy map! (I do like it on some masochistic level, deep down. )

Game report:

Barbs were a real annoyance, but some fortified warriors and chariots stopped them early on. It was pretty silly to see them come in hordes from all directions while I only had one city, but the pressure stopped as expected when second city was founded. (Barb cites are more likely to appear on a continent with more claimed tiles.) So, when first barb city finally spawned they weren't so keen anymore for the rush. Later on I fog-busted using the technique described by DanF5771, hoping it will work in Vanilla as well and it did. A quick tip on fogbusting. Axes were stopped quite effectively on flat terrain with combat 2 shock chariots and I also apparently messed their path finding like ZPV did with some chariots blocking the passage.

Now, what worries me after reading the spoilers is my choice of economy: with all that grassland and floodplains I decided to go for cottage spam + HR for happiness. I spammed a lot of warriors, but I see that the representation + Drama starts have stronger research at 500 AD. Well, those cottages will grow eventually and GL+NE farm will give a lot too so maybe all is not lost yet... I also have some special settling to do for vital interest of the state...


Details and some additional points about my decision making process: ( I like to read why people chose a particular strategy, so here's mine reasoning for the choices I made.)

Moving the scout revealed the rice so I settled 1W on fresh water grassland. I've played some games recently with capital as GP farm with GL + NE with good results so I wanted to have that option available.

The next problem was Epic speed and Vanilla as well, I haven't played that in a while and lost all feeling. When do barbs appear, when is Oracle likely to go off, etc...uh. I used the info from Dan's tables in the barb thread: it states that on Epic Emperor (BtS!) animal barb era ends at T30. So, the initial development was timed to get some serious defense by that time.

I went AH->Wheel, since there was Horse in BFC. Otherwise I would have gone for Archery. Worker->warriors->chariot->....Improving horses first and maximizing production after worker helped a lot to get some troops on time.

The main idea that influenced my plans was to take the lower path and bulb Astronomy. However, I usually go for intercontinental wars after Liberalism and I'm not really experienced with the lower path. The thing that finally made me to take a more familiar path was utter lack of hills for early production and I also felt that my tech rate wasn't fast enough.

St Petersburg was finally settled in 1810 BC on the hill by the elephants. Barb warriors did slow things down quite a lot...

Research went BW->Mysticism and Poly after that. I noticed that the AIs were late with wonders so I decided to go for late Oracle. I went via Poly because I didn't want to open Philo for the bulb and Poly is needed for GL. The Priesthood line was also needed to get Monarchy so the risk was minimized.

Situation at 1000 BC:

2 cities at pop 4 each. Oracle in Moscow half done, settler in St Petersburg half done as well. Economy stretched out: 26 gold accumulated at -8 gold with 100% research, reaching out for Writing to avoid collapse. The accumulated gold wasn't enough, but chariots were about to take a rich barb city for more money. It must have spawned in the same place that ZPV described: Cow, Clam, Rice, Fish and floodplains. . 2 workers, 5 chariots, 5 warriors.

Oracle was in at 850 BC, timed with Writing for CoL. I got it first and Confu was founded. At that point I had 4 cities and crashed economy, building Libraries and going for Monarchy. Perhaps I shouldn't have settled another city, but the location was great: northwestern floodplains for a future capital. At that point I finally decided that Moscow will be my GL+NE GP farm. However, I changed my mind later about the capital location and decided to go for St Petersburg. Less cottages, but the northwestern spot had too weak production to make it work.

Moses was born in 580 BC, Oracle pollution. I built a shrine, with a dubious judgment that it will pay off comparing to settling. What I should have done was to save him for neat Vanilla CS bulb, but I was still in the mind frame of delaying CS to bulb Astro.

I was getting jumpy at that point, with crashed economy and slow trip for Monarchy. Monarchy was finally in at 400 BC. Revolt to Caste and HR, Agriculture next... Here I decided to forgo the early invasion ideas and decided for the usual Philosophy bulbing.

I tried to get another prophet for CS, but GS was born instead and stockpiled. So, Agri->Pottery->Alpha->Literature->Math

After another GS (spent on Academy), I did get the desired prophet! Masonry was delayed for that reason so at 500 AD Meditation is almost in, with GS waiting for Philosophy bulb and GP for CS bulb. A few turns later, I got it both and found Tao. Yei!

500 AD status:

4 cities, 44 total pop, 3 settlers standing by waiting for CS and Philosophy bulbs. 6 workers, 8 chariots, 30 warriors. Yup, happiness costs a lot...Only 36 sustainable beakers per turn. However, those cottages will develop and GL is half done with forests pre-chopped to finish it. NE after GL and then fast GS spamming for the Liberalism beeline. Things should take off, or will they?

Btw, that gold that some people popped would be really great to have...I wish there were more random elements like that...

 

[kcd_swede]

I disagree that luck was largely the determining factor in this game. I see lot's of spoilers that indicate (to me) that players weren't really adapting their opening to raging barbs. With raging barbs you can't (at least I can't) build worker first and then think that you can rely on your improvements. There was plenty of good territory around for fog-busting and defending (lots of forests around capital).

You are probably right... some strategies left more to luck than others. Its a fair learning experience in that regard.

But in this game the number of people who got left at the mercy of lady luck is probably higher than usual, making luck a big distinguishing factor in the comparisons.

Also, I would suggest that getting a "good" result in the competition is probably easier by worker-first and being lucky enough to get those chariots out in time, rather than spamming warriors before worker. So whether it is wise to avoid leaving yourself at the mercy of luck depends on what you are trying to acheive, too.