GOTM 46 First Spoiler - end of ancient age.

[AlanH]

@jesusin: Here are some answers:

1- Civilopedia say Alphabet gives Junks (1/1/7), which then don't exist. Why is this?

Junks are only available if you play an eastern civ from the mod set that was used in early GOTMs. It's included if you play random games using Bluebox's GOTM mod scenario, but we don't use those mods now for current GOTMs.

2- Initial city near river gave 2 food, 1 production, 3 gold. Why 3 gold?

Isn't that normal in a capital on a river?

3- Archer have ZOC. If there are 2 units together being attacked, the archer gets a free shot. If enemy moves near archer, it doesn't get a free shot. Is that the rule?

Archer doesn't have ZOC, it has a free defensive shot, like a bombardment unit.

4- Spain declared war, attacked one of my cities and lost their unit. Then my capital had 1 extra happy face for a few turns. What triggered happiness? How many turns does it last? Does it only apply to capital?

War happiness (reverse of war weariness) sets in for a few turns after an AI civ declares war on you. Check out the Strategy Articles forum for a detailed thread on war weariness and the reverse. It applies to all cities.

5- I had a city at distance 5SW1SE from capital. I created a new city at distance 5NW. A previous city further away suffered increased waste next turn. I thought that (considering rounding down) both cities would have the same rank. What went wrong?

The two cities you describe should have the same rank. But another city further way now has its rank increased by one. It has one more city that is nearer to the capital than it is.

6- A 1 pop city is destroyed when invaded, but a 1 pop capital isn't. Is that true?

Yes, it's true of any city that has built culture, and a capital has culture points from its palace from turn 1. A pop 1 town will also not auto-raze if it has citizens not native to the civ it's captured from.

7- Possible bug. Tenochtitlan is built in the initial location. It builds an archer and is set to build a jaguar. At a certain time food is 18, production is 6, culture is 9. Luxuries rate set at 100%. Game forest is being worked, there's a forest in the initial 9 squares, there's another game forest in the 21 squares. Press Enter to end the turn and... guess what? The jaguar isn't built! City size is now 2, border expanded, food is 0, production is 9, the 2 game forests squares are being worked. Why didn't the production of the second citizen add up?

It would depend on the sequence of events in the interturn. One possible explanation:
- the food was added up, the second citizen popped and worked a 2-food grass.
- the shields were added up to give 9.
- the culture was added up, the city expanded, and the citizens were then reassigned based on the new best tiles.

 

[jesusin]

Thanks AlanH. And sorry about the stupid 5th question, I should have known better.

2- Initial city near river gave 2 food, 1 production, 3 gold. Why 3 gold?

Isn't that normal in a capital on a river?

Don't know. I expected 1 because city on grassland, +1 river +1 capital -1 despotism = 2.

7- Possible bug. Tenochtitlan is built in the initial location. It builds an archer and is set to build a jaguar. At a certain time food is 18, production is 6, culture is 9. Luxuries rate set at 100%. Game forest is being worked, there's a forest in the initial 9 squares, there's another game forest in the 21 squares. Press Enter to end the turn and... guess what? The jaguar isn't built! City size is now 2, border expanded, food is 0, production is 9, the 2 game forests squares are being worked. Why didn't the production of the second citizen add up?

It would depend on the sequence of events in the interturn. One possible explanation:
- the food was added up, the second citizen popped and worked a 2-food grass.
- the shields were added up to give 9.
- the culture was added up, the city expanded, and the citizens were then reassigned based on the new best tiles.

I also thought of something like that. The problem is I have "emphasize production"=yes. Even if borders didn't expand or expanded later in the interturn, the non-game-forest-square should have been chosen, not the grass. If the reason is the interturn sequence of events, it is unfair that 2 production are lost if it happens to be the border expansion turn, but not on any other turn. Isn't it?


May I abuse your kindness and ask an 8th question?
8.- What triggers a WLTKD?

 

[Redbad]

A WLTKD is held in cities that:
are size 6 or larger
have no unhappy citizens
have more happy then content citizens

 

[Niklas]

The problem is I have "emphasize production"=yes. Even if borders didn't expand or expanded later in the interturn, the non-game-forest-square should have been chosen, not the grass. If the reason is the interturn sequence of events, it is unfair that 2 production are lost if it happens to be the border expansion turn, but not on any other turn. Isn't it?

There are limits to how nice the governor is when it comes to choosing tiles. If you would have 3+ fpt after growth, the governor always chooses the tile with the most shields. If your growth rate is lower than that, he won't care what you say and choose some food-high tile anyway. There are some rare exceptions to this, I'm not sure about all of them

The border expansion does happen after growth, so the governor can only choose among the inner tiles, but after the expansion they may be rearranged again.

 

[AlanH]

I also thought of something like that. The problem is I have "emphasize production"=yes. Even if borders didn't expand or expanded later in the interturn, the non-game-forest-square should have been chosen, not the grass.

The governor will only choose a forest if it can maintain at least 2fpt. In this case it would have reduced to 1fpt, so it chooses the grass instead. There was some debate recently about exactly what criteria are used in higher food situations, but this one is clear cut.

If the reason is the interturn sequence of events, it is unfair that 2 production are lost if it happens to be the border expansion turn, but not on any other turn. Isn't it?

Well, it depends what you mean by "unfair". It's the same for all players. If that's the order the interturn takes then that's just the way it is. Why should you expect to get the benefit of a tile that isn't yet in your cultural borders?

 

[PaperBeetle]

@ jesusin

Yeah, the micro had some surprises in store for me also in this game.

1. Well the Civipedia gets full of all sorts of junk, including er junks apparently. I long since stopped wondering where it all comes from.

2. I noticed that too and was confused: +1 gold base city tile, +1 for being a capital (maybe? I just made that up), +1 for being on a river, -1 for being a despot. Doesn't make 3 does it? I've never properly researched shields and trade in city tiles. Maybe I should do some homework.

3. I thought archer has defensive freeshot but no ZOC.

4. War happiness is the same thing as war weariness. When you dow on someone, it counts against you. When they dow on you it counts for you. The balance can shift later on depending how the war is going.

5. This one I can do. The RCP5 towns don't count as a single town for the purpose of corruption calculation, but they do all get the same corruption. If we assume that these towns are all you have, to begin with the RCP5 town is rank 1 and the RCP>5 is rank 2. After the town is founded, we have two in RCP5 both with rank 1, no town with rank 2, and the RCP>5 is rank 3.

6. Not necessarily. I have autorazed capitals before. I think they become safe from autorazing when they have expanded their culture border.

7. A really annoying bit of micro which often catches you out when your capital grows on the same turn that its borders expand. I think it is because the city grows in pop first, and the new citizen works some tile in the first 9. Then after the shields have been worked out, the culture gets calculated, the borders expand, and the citizen is reassigned.

Some good points for study

 

[PaperBeetle]

Governors are incompetant. I sacrificed mine to Quetzcoatl in 2630bc.
The capital was size two in 2670bc, 17 food in the bin, citizens on both game tiles, one of which was cleared for 3 food, and the other still forested. Next turn I expect to have grown and worked the river forest, but I find my new citizens splashing around in the flood plain... that rocked my careful planning, but I managed to make the difference back later in my spreadsheet.

 

[EMan]

Speaking of "City Expansion Bugs".....there is one for sure, IMHO.

When a "Dead City" (Only 1 shield/commerce) expands in population, Civ will assign the added laborer to a forest square over a grassland, even though the shields are of no value!!........Hopefully Civ 4 will have this fixed. In the meantime CRpMapStat utility program is useful for monitoring cities that increase in size in the interturn.

 

[Niklas]

Open.
Going for a tech win, hopefully space but diplo if RL comes too much in the way.

For once I didn't keep very detailed notes, I wanted to play faster instead. Settled in place, got a nice 4-turn settler factory.
I'm fairly pleased with my AA, though I suffered a mishap much like Shigella. I had planted a town on the Egyptian peninsula to steal the spices (and the iron as it turned out after IW), and they clearly didn't like that. It was on a hill, had walls and (stupidly only) a guarding veteran jag, and I was giving them dyes for some tech, but still they saw fit to sneak attack me with a regular warrior :rolleeyes:
This was in 950 BC, and so my GA was spent on producing units to take out the Egyptians. It did help me get an earlier Republic though.

My QSC stats:
12 towns, 27 pop
1 granary, 4 barracks, 1 temple, 1 walls
4 workers
2 swords, 11 jags (6 vets)
Missing the Maths subtree, Literature, and both govs. Researched 2 turns on Republic.

I played a slow war against the Egyptians, trying to farm for leaders as much as possible. Some time during the war they built the GLight in Memphis and started colonizing the southern island. They didn't get to hold it long.
With the help of the Lighthouse, my third suicide galley was able to survive to meet the rest of the world in 390 BC. I was delighted to find they had researched up to Construction, but lacked several techs from the lower half, including Republic.

When I had taken all the Egyptian on-island towns except the one on a hills by the iron in the north, I had scored 11 elite wins, no GL. I marched on Elephantine, took it down to a single redlined spear, then asked for peace to get one of their two off-island towns. Then I promtly redeclared, took Elephantine with my sole remaining 3/5 elite sword. Guess what.

This was in 310 BC, a year that will forever live in the memory of the Aztecs as the most golden of all. I got a leader to rush the FP in Thebes, and I researched Currency and entered the MA.

Here's my tech progression:

4000 BC: CB (start)
4000 BC: WC (start)
3400 BC: Pottery (researched)
3300 BC: Masonry (Egypt)
3300 BC: Alphabet (Egypt)
3300 BC: BW (Spain)
2590 BC: Myst (researched)
2590 BC: TW (Spain)
1500 BC: Poly (researched)
1500 BC: HBR (Spain)
1500 BC: Writing (Spain)
1500 BC: MM (Egypt)
1325 BC: Philo (researched)
1325 BC: IW (Egypt)
1075 BC: CoL (researched)
610 BC: Republic (researched, GA)
530 BC: Maths (researched, GA)
450 BC: Literature (researched, GA)
390 BC: Construction (Zulu)
310 BC: Currency (researched) => MA
310 BC: Monarchy (Spain)
310 BC: Engineering (Persia)

The two islands don't know each other, and I'm going to keep it that way. Spain unfortunately knows how I treated Egypt, so they'll have to die.

 

[PaperBeetle]

Open class, going for err... something dominationish.

- Capital Location
I head 1 tile west, to get me closer to the dyes. After the first scouting jaguar goes east, I see that a 4-turn factory would have been possible if I had settled in place. Well, shields are the limiting factor over here on the hill, so I can do a 5-turn factory. It's a bit goofy, but it's better than nothing. Build order is 2 Jags (with apologies to John Prescott) for scouting, a second worker to connect the dyes, a granary and then settlers. The first settler comes in 2390bc and the factory runs at sizes 4 and 5.

- Contacts
Spain is met in 3300bc, when I find Barcelona guarding the eastern isthmus. That's frighteningly close. In 3200bc I meet an Egyptian settler combo on the far side of the western isthmus. They are on their way to found Heliopolis. Rather than exploring further into Egypt, I leave my jaguar blocking the isthmus. Egypt and Spain have not met, and I plan to leave it that way.

- Research
Start with Pots for my granary. Then max out research in pursuit of Monarchy. Mysticism is no problem, but I switch to min research towards the end of Polytheism; it would have taken me ~35 turns at best, so eventually I cut my losses and build up some cash. Tech trading isn't particularly lucrative, even though I am the broker between my two neighbours (even after Spain's discovery of Mapping).

- Slip of the Keyboard
Immediately after building my first settler, I alt-tab to my turn log and type out a sentence. But oh no! I haven't switched to my turn log; I've given my settler some long and complex hotkey order. He trundles off west into the deep jungle, instead of going east to the beegees I ought to turn him around and head east again, but I am so dispirited by this turn of events that I keep going, and found my second town at the southern tip of the continent.

- Expansion
Not my expansion; Spain's! Before my misdirected settler has even taken its first excruciating steps, Spain has built a town on the hills to my southeast. That's pretty scary expansion, but it is a crummy spot and a long way from home, implying that there is something down there that I can't see. It looks like a good spot for rubber or coal, but I hope not to get that far down the tech tree, so maybe I'll never know.

- Expansion
Finally, in the second millennium B.C, it is time for my expansion. I get three towns at RCP3, and another 3 further out which aren't in a nice ring. One of these is blocking the western isthmus, but unlike most people, I founded on my side of the narrows. In time I will come to thank that decision, but for now I still have to deal with the iron situation. This is handled by squeezing a city up against Egyptian territory, grabbing both spices and iron. This town's risk of a flip is massive as it is first ring from Thebes, and Egypt is a cultural giant.

- Jag Rash
By 1100bc I have 19 jaguars, 10 of which are immediately available for offensive operations. Spain looks like the obvious target - they are weaker than Egypt and have been able to partially colonize my portion of the continent. If I eliminate them soon, I can abuse our ROP and trash my gpt trading reputation, and Egypt will never know.
My first mistake is not to disconnect their iron. Unfortunately, the isthmus is inadvertently blockaded by a chopping worker, and I don't know how long it will be before I can get through. Never mind; I estimate that the jag stack should be enough to take Barcelona (the isthmus) and Murcia (their iron). My estimate turns out to be way off. The four surviving jaguars are just able to capture Barcelona by the skin of their teeth. Of the seven lost battles, only one jaguar retreats.

- QSC Stats
10 towns with 21 citizens and 101 tiles.
1 granary, 2 barracks, 1 temple.
60 food in the bin, 141 shields in the box, 280g in the treasury.
1 settler, 6 workers, 4 slaves, 1 veteran sword, 1 regular galley, 12 jaguars (3 of them regular, 2 elite).
All first-tier techs, Ironwork, Writing, Mysticism, Mapping, Riding, Polytheism, 321/600 on Monarchy.
2 contacts, 2 embassies. Golden Age in progress.

 

[PaperBeetle]

From QSC to Medieval...

- The Spanish War
Things start happening in the west when my iron / spice town flips to Egypt in 925bc. Luckily, I have built some swords and upgraded some jaguars already. I have enough military to autoraze the bizarre southern town, Toledo, and capture Santiago, which is at the eastern tip of my part of the continent. I now have full control of my third of the land, and towns guarding both chokepoints.
In 710bc, Spain tries to sneak a settler combo past the fortress town of Barcelona. Crazy. I take the slaves and sue for peace, getting Laws and Spain's iron town. Finally I have slogged through to a good result.

- Egypt
Egypt demands contact with Spain in 750bc. At this point I am still at war with Spain, and Egypt is outrageously strong, so I feel I have to give in; in any case, I see an Egyptian galley sailing towards Spain a couple of turns later, so I wouldn't have been able to keep them separate. Now Egypt knows that I am a ROP raper and deal breaker.
In 530bc my ROP with Egypt comes up for renewal. Cleo will play ball but only in exchange for my tech lead (Monarchy and Currency). By a remarkable coincidence I happen to have a jaguar stationed on each of Egypt's four strategic resources. Without a ROP, I boot an Egyptian settler combo which got stuck after failing to beat me to Toledo's old location. Cleo jumps the settler! Never mind; I start the war anyway, by pillaging all her iron and horses. She reroads them almost immediately. Industrious civs eh?

- War on Two Fronts
Not content with taking on Egypt, I redeclare against Spain on the same turn. My strategy on the western front is massive fortification of the Egyptian chokepoint. This siege yields my first leader in 350bc. He rushes the Forbidden Palace in my first ring, with a view to keeping my core productive after I jump my palace (I want Thebes for my capital). I now regret this decision; FP in Madrid would have been better.
In the east, I found a town in Spanish territory, linking the iron town to the chokepoint town, and then found another further in, which steals a Spanish wine and allows faster access to Madrid. Killing a stray Spanish archer in 230bc gives me my second leader, who forms an army with my two star-elite swords. Madrid falls in 210bc.

- Peace on Two Fronts
I give Cleo peace in 310bc for a small gpt payment. My defences in the west are getting a bit thin, and I want to concentrate on Spain. Also, she now has a lot of galleys, and is starting to drop raiding parties off in inconvenient parts of my empire. I give Bella peace in 190bc, just because I can get 3 slaves in the deal. I redeclare in 110bc and capture their last town, removing them from the game. 1 down, 4 to go.

- Killing Fields
I get busy bolstering my western defences with catapults, and in 10bc I am pleased to see a small stack of Egyptian swords march into my land. I issue a boot order and get a dow. My catapults open fire, and I get my first army win. The slaughter has begun. This is the point where I really rejoice in my decision to block the isthmus on my side of the narrows, because the Egyptian troops are accumulating on a desert tile, not the iron hill, so they die that much faster. Including naval operations, the kill rate is roughly 6:1 in my favour. A leader in 110ad rushes the Epic, and my fourth leader arises the very next turn; he goes to move palace to Madrid.

- The Medieval
In 250ad, I finally research Construction and limp into the Medieval era. I still haven't sent out any suicide galleys, and Egypt has the Lighthouse up in Memphis; I have seen their galleys sailing off into the fog of war, and checking on the diplomacy screen shows that they have started settling somewhere off-continent. No matter; one day their Lighthouse will be mine, and with it the world...

 

[ts64]

ts64 GOTM46 open PTW1.27f

Goal: Conquest

I send worker to the deer to chop and irrigate and decide to send settler west. I settle on the hill, order up a jag warrior and start reserching alphabet
at 100%. First jag explore E N, N, N N and meet Spain 3650BC. I buy alphabet for WC, CB and 1gpt. Start a min run on writing. Jag moves 2 W, W N, N and meet Egypt 3450BC.

Second Jag built 3550BC and start exploring east.

Since I haven't learned pottery I let the chop go to a barracks. I build one more Jag and then a settler. I send the Jag that was exploring the east to block the choke. The other one is mapping Egypt.

1st Settler done in 2800BC, send him 2 NW N, start another settler which I change to an archer when Spain closes in with a couple of warriors. The spanish warriors turn back, Spain found Toledo on the eastern penninsula, making one of my planned sites really aggressive so I will wait with that one.

2430BC Spain learns writing, I have 14 turns left on my min run...I buy it for 2gpt and contact with Egypt, Egypt has pottery so I buy that and their 10g
for writing. Start on mysticism max afforded.

2270BC next settler finished, send him 2 NE to found on the desert.

2030BC Egypt learn mysticism, buy the remaining beakers and sell it to Spain for the Wheel. Start Philosophy at max.

1950BC next settler finished, send him 2SW S to settle on the dyes.

1675BC next settler finished, send him 2W NW to get the whale after expansion.

1575BC learn philosophy at monopoly, trade for MM and IW. Start Polyteism at max.

1450BC next settler finished, send him 2SW 3S.

1350BC the city 2NW N has built barracks and archers since it was founded, now it produces a settler that I will send to the chocke and build a temple to
try to get the Iron.

1200BC next settler finished, send him 2SW W.

1100BC learn polyteism, trade for Math, HBR, CoL and 70g. Start on currency at max afforded.


At 1000BC I have

8 towns, 16 pop
7 worker
5 archer
3 Jag's
2 Barracks

All AA-techs except republic, monarchy, literature, currency and construction.

Picture of starting island 1000BC

950BC next settler finished, send him 2E NE to found on the desert.

750BC learn currency. Trade currency, wines, 4gpt and around 40g to Spain for construction. Sell currency and construction to Egypt for horses, spices and their whole treasury of 14g.

Enter middle ages.

I had two early demands, one from egypt for around 20g, which I paid. A few turns later from Spain for my whole treasury of 4g, which I also paid. Now I am starting to build military to try to get some more land.

Wonders:
Spain has built The Colossus and The Oracle in Madrid
Egypt has built The Great Lighthouse in Pi-Ramses
Persia has built the Pyramids in Persepolis.

 

[shumble]

What do you mean by 'buy the remaining beakers?'

 

[ts64]

I mean that when Egypt learned the tech that I had researched for 10 turns, I had invested 60 science beakers in it and I needed 90 to learn it. So when buying the tech I only had to pay the cost for the remaining 30 beakers, multiplied with the different multipliers that decide the cost per beaker when buying a tech.

I guess it would have been easier to understand if I just wrote that I bought the tech.

 

[shumble]

thanks, I thought there was some strategy that I wasn't aware of that allowed you to buy techs after you had researched a certain amount. sort of like buying marketplaces and libraries.

 

[megabrainz]

Early on in the ancient age, I went to attack Barcelona. I waited for it to grow to size 2 as I suspected it would be auto-razed if it was size 1 when taken.

I knocked it down to size somewhat, but weirdly, when I moved one of my jaguar warriors into the city's borders it jumped from size 2 to size 1. Result - I didn't dare attack for fear of an auto-raze that would screw my reputation.

Can anyone explain this for me? Equally, I'd be interested to know why cities auto-raze at size 1, as it doesn't seem to happen every time (in particular I suspect it of not happening when I'm in Democracy).

 

[AlanH]

I pop reduction in a despotic AI town usually means they've pop rushed a defender.

 

[tR1cKy]

This thing has been explained somewhere as the "scared2death bug". But for what i have seen it's not a bug. It looks like that when you declare war and move troops into enemy territory, or even rop-rape them, the enemy AS take some preemptive action even if it's not its turn. What you should have experienced is the AS pop-rushing a spearman. It happened also to me a few times.

Another thing similar that happened to me, and that should corroborate this hypotesis, is that i move in, see the visible defender as a pikeman, but when i attack the pikeman has "magically" turned into a musketman. Or a musket turned into a rifle, or a rifle turned into an infantry. Can't say if it's an upgrade or a rush.

A tr1ck that can (sometimes) be used to prevent the "scared2death" is to gift your soon-to-be enemy with a government when it's still in despotism. In a replayed GotM 41 i have gifted Japan with Republic just before attacking. Then, the military screen showed me that Japan was in anarchy when before the gift it was still in despotism. What i have done is to exploit the scared2death to my advantage: in anarchy you can't poprush nor moneyrush anything, and so the target city remained at size 2 and it was captured instead of autorazed.

EDIT: crosspost

 

[EMan]

This thing has been explained somewhere as the "scared2death bug". But for what i have seen it's not a bug....

It's really a cheat by the AI!............The AI can Pop-Rush units during YOUR turn (viz. When you Declare War).......but YOU, the Human, have to wait until the turn-after-next before your new unit appears in a city!

 

[megabrainz]

Well, that's quite broken! Thanks for the info, guys - I guess I'll just have to attack size 3 cities from now on (I assume the AI can only do this once per city per turn?)