Gotm 74

[URUWASHI]

Yes, if I did it right, (31,45) in the game becomes (15, 45) in the editor. Oh well. This is all new to me and it really doesn't feel comfortable anyway, to much like peeking and too much like work, too

I agree, the system of painting is a bit confusing and not allways perfect if you happen to " paint " the wrong tile..( 30.45 instaed of 31.45 as an example ), then you will be off.....
You may be off a square..but so sar for most players is the closest thing you can achieve to determine the specials.

I have my own system , that uses the "paint " technique and a mathematical resolution using Excel , where all possibilties are calculated.
In reallity the combination of both systems make its perfect...

I only need 2 locations with specials , either visible or hidden.

Since you have 2 different patterns , one pointing NW/ SE ( based on the axis ) and one pointing SW/NE it is hard to know where is the best locations.
Though I agree the system is ideal for OCC ....or unless you are playing a game like game 73..where the land is mostly Grassland....


You can study the Map editor....just by opening it....and see an empty ocean.. after it is open , hit the " x " key a few times, you will see groups of whales and Fish, they are grouped in teams of 8 ....6 in the outside ...2 on the inside making the axis....it is clear that whales are pointing NW ..and the different group the FISH is pointing NE, they alternate in paralell lines....
The gropus start at Meridian " 0 " and end at either 180 or whatever meridian is the highest depending on map size.

Now IF you go to " resource seed "and type any number....ANY number ...a number the AI will create at random .....the shapes and formation of the groups may change , not only in the location but also on the components....since the AI " Thinks " on Hexa is only a few groups - 0 to 15 - will be composed of 8 whales ( and Fish will be composed of 8 Fish ) any number between sed resource 1 and 15 will change the location on the Ocean....NOW if you type 16 to 31 .....the components will change...now the groups are made of 4 Whales and 4 Fish ...the whales will be the axis on the NW group and the Fish will be the axis on the SE....try again with 32 to 47 ....and the groups will change components again..and again if you type any number between 48 and 63....after 63 ( 64 .... will be excatly like typing 1 ) 65=2 , 66 = 3 and goes forever....

Now cover the Fish or the Whales with " Desert " ( go to Brush ..City radius ..shiftleft ..click ..etc ) and all your fish will become Oasis....do the same with Whales and they will become oil....

The only time that specials are invisible is when they are covered by Grassland. As an easy way to find them , just look at the map you are playing and click 8 tiles to the right --- or the left ...is another special in the spot, for instance in game 74 is SILK on 26.48, move the cursor 8 tiles to the right and it will be a whale..
Now is a fish special at 28.42....now move the cursor 8 tiles , to island 23....top left , is a grassland 44.42 ..IF you mine that spot ....a Special will show up...

The distance between them is allways the same , DEPENDING on the Pattern...also you can calculate the Huts....after you find one special
Since each special has 8 seeds....8 Huts will be " created " based on the special location - 4 will be east and 4 will be west....depending again on the Pattern...and vice versa

 

[Ali Ardavan]

Yes, if I did it right, (31,45) in the game becomes (15, 45) in the editor.

Exactly.

Oh well. This is all new to me and it really doesn't feel comfortable anyway, to much like peeking and too much like work, too

It certainly is a lot of work. I only have patience for so much of it. You can continue doing this till you build a full map in the editor which is very tedious.

I, however, am fully comfortable with it. You are using the info the game provides to you and the people you are competing with (in the GOTM) are aware of this and have accepted it as fair play. Having said that, I wish Revealed-Map was an opening sequence option just like barbarian setting, number of rivals, ...

 

[LordValuna]

Having said that, I wish Revealed-Map was an opening sequence option just like barbarian setting, number of rivals, ...

Here Here!!

 

[URUWASHI]

Good point Ali, but I think having a map revealed will make some early conquest faster then it is for some superb players like Peaster.
Regardless that, I dont think it will favor much the Early landing games , with the exception of knowing the AI starting cities....or the ones playing OCC
For instance in my CIV version , I can nor relocate Caravans....and I understand that other versions allow that trick though we play in a " Honor " system is hard to control or to know what other players do.
I remember one of SID first games , was called " Pirates " ...and it was a LOG saved by the AI ....anything you did ..i.e. Saving the game before attacking a city was recorded , I wish we had a patch on CIV II that could record every move..I have lost many times units due to silly moves .. I have lost explorers tipping HUTS on their last move to find Barbarians ...even moving a Trireme to a city . ...losing all your Units...
I think that the beauty of the game , as old as it is, still one of the most enjoyable games to play....I dont think the designers had any idea of the challenges that the AI could create.
THanks to players like you , and many more my game has become better..and sometimes question of the newcomers , make you wonder ...how good can this get ??
Its a fascinating game ..and Im sure is more to be learn.

 

[Agni Neres]

Exactly.

I, however, am fully comfortable with it. You are using the info the game provides to you and the people you are competing with (in the GOTM) are aware of this and have accepted it as fair play. ...

That's just it -- it's not info the game provides, you need the map editor to get it. No argument that it's in the rules and legal -- just not in my comfort zone. I'll use it sparingly -- maybe after i expose the map the normal way, I'll go back to the editor and paint enough to find grass-hidden specials. From the logs of GOTM 73, exposing hidden silk tiles made for a monster SSC, while I had just a nice one

I do appreciate the work you did in the MA thread to explain it all.

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

That's just it -- it's not info the game provides, you need the map editor to get it. No argument that it's in the rules and legal -- just not in my comfort zone. I'll use it sparingly -- maybe after i expose the map the normal way, I'll go back to the editor and paint enough to find grass-hidden specials. From the logs of GOTM 73, exposing hidden silk tiles made for a monster SSC, while I had just a nice one

I do appreciate the work you did in the MA thread to explain it all.

Actually it is info the game provides, and you don't need the map editor to get it. The hut and specials patterns have been documented for years now. The locations can be mathematically derived based on the information presented to you in the exposed map and knowledge of the hut/special patterns. It's just a lot easier to do it with the map editor, so that's what most people who care to figure it out will use.

I do not personally perform the map analysis; not because of any moral objection, but rather because I find it to be a royal pain in the arse. I will, however, use the hutfinder helper tool, which requires the discovery of a hut (as oppposed to just specials), and will indicate the location of specials, not the type. However, if someone is willing to do the legwork to determine the type as well, I don't turn down the information.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

Actually it is info the game provides, and you don't need the map editor to get it. ...It's just a lot easier to do it with the map editor, ...

Exactly. If you have done it often enough, you may even be able to do it in your head; ElephantU probably can.

I do not personally perform the map analysis; not because of any moral objection, but rather because I find it to be a royal pain in the arse.

Exactly. I, however, do it and feel the pain all the time.

However, that is not the only reason I think Revealed-Map should be an opening-sequence option. The more important reason is playing on known maps like the map of the earth. I already know the geography so there is no fun/thrill/challenge in exploration; not being able to see it is just annoying.

 

[URUWASHI]

Tim the Enchanter Wrote : “ I do not personally perform the map analysis; not because of any moral objection, but rather because I find it to be a royal pain in the arse. I will, however, use the hutfinder helper tool, which requires the discovery of a hut (as oppposed to just specials), and will indicate the location of specials, not the type. However, if someone is willing to do the legwork to determine the type as well, I don't turn down the information. “

Agni Neres wrote :"That's just it -- it's not info the game provides, you need the map editor to get it. No argument that it's in the rules and legal -- just not in my comfort zone. "

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About a year ago, I created a system , that can locate the specials.

It does not need the knowledge of the seed resource, ( I have still no idea how the seed resource is calculated )

The system will give you location of all the seeds in the Map.

After you have calculated one exact location, also I have discovered not long ago the link between Huts and seeds , since I could never find “ Hutfinder”, also I am able to calculate seeds from huts and vice versa.

But unfortunatly , I did try to post my files , Excell pictures,the uploading files on this place are very obsolete.
Wont allow certain files extensions...
I can not post any Xls , file or after I do change them to Bmp...the resolution is awful...If anyone is interested on how I do locate specials , and use my Excel locator ....let me know.
I will send you my E-Mail and you can look how I do it without using the map editor

 

[LordValuna]

I can not post any Xls , file or after I do change them to Bmp...the resolution is awful...

You can zip them then post as a ZIP file if you have winzip
I can send you an early verion of WINZIP(i think 8.0) if you dont have it

 

[Sharkbait]

@Uruwashi

Scouse Gits' Hutfinder 1.4.3 can be found at:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?postid=1720040

 

[URUWASHI]

I was hoping to be able to Paste the Excel sheets to make the explanantion simpler.
Somehow , I am not able to upload those pictures , regardless if I change them to Bit or JPG

The Patterns

In the game are 2 Patterns of seeds, both composed of 8 seeds.

Both Patterns are Hexagons, 6 seeds are on the outside, and 2 in the inside, the inside seeds will help to differentiate the Patterns, they will create an Axis on each Pattern that Points NW/ SE or NE/SW

Patterns will be composed of the exact seeds, and they will repeat themselves East to West, I am certain that the do start East of “ 0 “ Meridian and end at whatever the highest meridian exist in the Map.

The repetition is a constant, If a Whale seed is located at 32.14 , then will be another Whale at 48.14 ( + 16 ) to the East and one at 16.14 (-16, West )

I have named all Eight Seeds A, B, C, D, E, F, G and H

Using the dial of a clock, as visual reference the locations in the NE Pattern will be :
A will be at 8pm- B = 10 pm - C= Noon = D= 2 Pm = E= 4pm F=6 pm
Seed G and H are located inside., G is close to A, and H is near D In this case a diameter is formed by A-G H and D

Again using the dial of a clock the NW pattern Seeds will be located at =
A= 9 pm, B= 11pm, C= 1 pm, D= 3 PM , E=5 PM , and F= 7 PM
Again G and H , will form the Axis uniting B and E.

The locations , were not random selected , when I studied the resolutions, I realized that was 3 locations that will have the same exact location , and 3 more that will be located on the same spot..but have different resolutions ..( More Later )

Concept
1) Distances between all seeds in Each pattern is always a constant, ( i.e. In the NE pattern the distance between A and B = + 2 ,-6 , this numbers represent Latitude and Longitude , IF A is located at 45.12 then B will be at 47.6.) One of the researches I did was looking at both Patterns, and find one point that will be A and the distant to B to be the same , in my calculations the distance between A and B in the NW pattern is also = +2,-6 , after I look at the resolutions from both Patterns , I try to locate IN BOTH the distance from A to B , since the result will be the same, the H seed will also located in the same coordinates regardless of the Pattern ( more explained below )
2) Measuring all 64 distances in Each Pattern and proofing was a bit tedious, but I realized that I could use an Excel sheet , to use the constants after all the Calculations have been done, and just let the Excel Program do the work
3) Because is unknown in the beginning of the Game if the visible special is Part of the NW or NE Pattern it requires to write the visible locations. I write all 21 visible squares and divide them in 3 Groups, those with no specials visible, those with visible specials and those with grassland, as a rule I eliminate the grasslands NEXT to a special, since by rule they never co-exist next to each other ( Exception: When the game starts at the “0 “or near the Greenwich Meridian , Specials may be closer)
4) On my Excel program , I have 2 resolution sheets, one for the NW and one for the NE pattern, distances on the 2 Patterns from A to B are the same ,but from A to C , the distance is different: On NE C is +6.-8 from A , and on NW, Seed C is +8.-4 from A.
Thus all the resolutions ( 64 ) are different in each Pattern.
I pick one of the Excel Sheets, ( i.e. NW ) and type the visible special location, the program then calculates all distances , If the visible special is A…then B should be at X.X and C , and so on

Distances between Seeds -

Norhwest Pattern = IF A = 0.0
B will be located at +2.-6 of A
C located +6.-8 of A
D located + 12.-6 of A
E located at + 10.0 of A
F located + 6.+2 of A
G= located at +4.-2 of A
H= located +8.-4 from A

Northwest Pattern ( all distances from Seed A )
A= 0.0
B=+2.-6
C= +8.-4
D=+10.0
E=+8.+6
F=+2.+4
G=+4.-2
H=+6.+2



Using the previous Calculations IF point A is located at 51.21 NE Pattern then :
A=51.21 - B ( +2 and -6 )= 53.15 , C ( +6 and -8)=57.13, D ( + 12 and - 6 ) =63.15
E= 61.21 , F=57.23 , G= 55.19 and H =59.17

IF A is located on 51.21 NW , then :
A=51.21 , B=53.15 , C=59.17 , D=61.21, E=59.27 ,F=53.25, G=55.19 and H=57.23

To visualize the concept , I will recomend to get a Quadrille Sheet.
Horizontal , write numbers 51 thru 63 ( E -W )
Vertical , and to the left 13 thru 27 ( N- S ), then write the above coordinates in the sheet as A , B , C etc..

You will see that :
Points A ( 51.21 ) , B ( 53.15 )and G (55.19 ) are located in the same coordinates
Point H ( NE)= Point C ( NW )- 59.17
Point E ( NE )= Point D ( NW )-61.21
Point F ( NE )= Point H ( NW )-57.23

If the game starts with a visible seed, is unknown what seed we are looking , or the pattern , we have 8 possibilities that it may be A,B,C,D,E,F,G or H on NE Pattern or 8 other Possibilities in NW.

Excel Utility

The only option was then to calculate every possible distance between all points in every Pattern , I calculated not only the distances from A to B and so on also , from B to al others , and C to all others and so on.
After all were calculated several times , to avoid any errors in distance, all calculations were placed in a Excel Sheet, then using a Cell to be my KEY , from all distances could be calculated.
I did the same with both patterns, in total 128 calculations , 64 for each pattern.
Unfortunatly , I am not able to copy and paste the Excel Sheets , so I have to explain how it works.
As the game starts , I will type on my NW finder the Visible seed, in a second the Excell will calculate all 64 possible solutions, I print the solutions , and proceed to do the same with the NW again , I print the 64 solutions


Start of a Game
I will use game 69 as an example:

Download game 69

Start of game 69: Two Settlers and 2 visible specials , a Whale at 53.15 and a Pheasant at 55.19; tiles with forest , ocean , plains etc…not containing Specials are eliminated, One good trick I learned is that IF in any Excel Resolution a Tile appears to be listed as a Special location ..and that location is a Jungle., then I know that I am looking at the wrong pattern.

Of the 21 visible tiles this have no specials
Row 14 : 54.14 and 56.14
Row 15 : 53.15 and 53.17
Row 16 : 52.16, 54.16 and 56.16
Row 17 : 53.17, 55.17*
Row 18 : 52.18, 54.18,56.18, 58.18
Row 19: 53.19 and 57.19
Row 20: 54.20and 56.20

* Row 17 starting location, 55.17 can not have any hidden specials since is located next to the Phaesant, seeds never appear next to each other

Only other squares that may have a special are : 57.17 and 58.16 , Grasslands.
I will consider 57.17 another location to eliminate, since is at + 2 and -2 of 55.19
After studing several games that distance never appears.

The Excel Utilty
The Excel utility, is composed of 12 mini- calculators:
NW-Finder
Part 1= Seed Locator NW
Part 2= Best 4 special Locations NW
Part 3= Distance beteen Points NW
Part 4= Similar pattern East and West NW
Part 5= Opposite Pattern North and South Locator NW
Part 6= Hut Locator NW
NE-Finder
Part 1= Seed Locator NE
Part 2= Best 4 special Locations NE
Part 3= Distance beteen Points NE
Part 4= Similar pattern East and West NE
Part 5= Opposite Pattern North and South Locator NE
Part 6= Hut Locator NE

Part 1 - Calculates all 64 possibilities of the visible seed, sometimes when is not visible seed the location of a Hut can be used, regardless it will calculate any Tile that MAY have a seed ...
Part 2 - After the Alpha Seed or " A " has been determined will calculate the 2 best locations on each pattern for a city to be built , and the best 4 locations for a city containing 3 specials
Part 3- The sheet contains all the distances from every point in both patterns, useful when C or D in NE are located first , or E and F located on the NW pattern
Part 4 - After " A " is calculated , will resolve all similar specials to the East and the West
Part 5 - After " A " is located will calculate the "A " seed of the opposite pattern, North and South
Part 6 - Calculates the possible 16 locations of Huts , East and west of the pattern , since Hut locations are created and based on seed locations and vice versa


GAME 69

Opening NW Seed finder,and typing 55 then 19 in correct cells , reveals that is 4 possible solutions ( Again , I wish I could post the Excel sheet ) that contain 55.19 and 53.15 ;the two visible specials.
53.15 appears to be A-B-C or G
The same numbers are then looked in the opposite Pattern ( NE).
4 resoulutions have 53.15 and 55.19 , and shows that 53.15 may be B,C,G or H.

The key Seeds are A - B and G, since they have to the same regardless of the Pattern

A appears in every single resolution
G appears as 53.15 then A= 47.17
B shows as 53.15 in both resolutions If B =53.15 the A=51.21

So A or my Alpha Seed is 47.17 or 51.21

Now I look on the 2 resolutions when B and G are located on the SAME coordinates,
where both B=53.15 and G =55.19

The solution is A= 51.21, I have found my ALPHA seed

It is unknown IF this is a NW or NE Pattern, to find out we may have to uncover more tiles, since I have not made a Move ....the most logical location , 59.17 .. appears as a very good location for a special , and is ONLY one move away…
In general, I will look at the 8 resolutions from Excel sheets ( 1 and 2 ), and eliminate the rows, sometimes requires to make a move and find the closest available tile , and eliminate more rows…

Game 69 - Turn 1 - 4000 BC - Settler One moves East to 57.17 one more tile is revealed a Peat Special at 59.17 , this may be Special H on NE Pattern or C on NW ….now I can Black click 51.21 location ( A ) , with 55.19( G ) and 59.17 (H ) they are in a perfect line pointing NE, also I black click 63.15 ( D ), again forming a straight line, IF that is the case..

This may be a 4 Special location , so I proceed to my Best 4 Special locator NE- After I type 51.21 The reslolution is :
58.20 and 56.16 are the best locations to build a 4 Special City...….56.16 is a Jungle …But is my closest Location..
60.14 - 62.18 ,54.24 and 52.18 are good for a 3 Seed City

Game 69 - Turn 1 - 4000…Second Settlers , Move to 56.16…( Jungle )
Game 69 - Turn 2 -3950 - First Settlers Move North ( Forest ) , if this is a NE Pattern will find a Special on 57.13 , then Settlers 2 Build Beijiing 4 Special Location,
Whale special located, Now is 100% certain this is a NE Pattern...

The correct Resolution is :
A= 51.21 B= 53.15 C=57.13 D=63.15 E=61.21 F=57.23 and the Axis G=55.19 and H= 59.17 a NE Pattern

The alpha location( 51.21 ) helps to locate all East, West , North and East specials, since the distances to all points can be calculated.
Also it help me calculate where all Huts may be.
Since it seems that Is Ocean to the West , I have to explore the East.
Again since Specials and Huts are related , I know 4 Will move East ( ABFH or CDEG ) and 4 will move West ( ABFH or CDEG), just need to find one.

Conclusion

Time wise has taken less than 2 minutes , more than a minute writing the visible tiles in the start of the game , and also in this game the 2 visible seeds make search faster , sometimes a Hut is a good hint since they appear 4 tiles East or West of a Special, in this case I write down the location of the Hut and calculate where the Alpha Seed May be.
I use different parts of the Utility ( Hut Locators, Opposite Pattern , distance between points ) depending on my start.
I find it is a good starter , but as the game progresses , I dont use it much exept when is an Ideal 4 Seed location

 

[ManowaR]

Thx a lot for the explanation before Uruwashi