GOTM #8 *Spoilers* Thread

Finally finished. What a game.

I will be on the record that the Random Number Generator (RNG) totally suuuuuuuuuuuccks for tournament type games because it can be severely unbalancing. Last month in GOTM7, I got almost nothing out of about a dozen huts while using expansionist scouts. This month in GOTM8, I got settler-settler-warrior using a worker and warrior as the initial scouts and then LOTS of barbs and one tech.

In the long run this evens out, but it really can be a severe advantage swing that gets outside the balancing game. The yield from these first three huts gave me an insurmountable advantage in the game and just confirmed what path I was choosing to head toward victory.

I think that an option to select a flag that will cause the outcomes from the goodie huts to be randomly generated at the beginning of the game but then fixed according to the locations of the huts for the duration of the game should be included in the set up mode. It would be nice if this flag set the hut contents so that each player had the same possible outcomes if they found the same huts as another player.

I definately do not think that having one player get two settlers out of huts right off the bat results in a fair game play comparison.

I am saying this when I was the beneficiary of the golden eggs in this case.

Never got all the jungle cleared and my capital city was not in the top ten demographics because it built settlers and military units almost the whole game. At one point I was running about 90 workers. (the AI functions of "Shift-I" and "Shift-J" couldn't be used because they were written by a total idiot that never played the game).

This map seemed to be missing a few civs on the main continent because there was definitely a lot of open space on Otto's side of the continent. It would have been a different game, if the civ that would have been up north west of Berlin and the civ that would have been on the east coast (on the other side of the inland sea) would have been included.

I have some screen shots of the massive barbarian uprising in 270BC. When it occurred in the game, I had 6 villages go critical and spawn horsemen hordes all on the same turn and when I looked back at the data after all was said and done, there was actually 1 other horde that Libby had to deal with all on her own.

I still think that having all the villages go MENTAL on the same turn because they key off of one RNG is really inappropriate. It may seem to effect me more because of my style of play that tends to surround and contain the AI aggressors, but I still think it is wrong.

Something about the hordes spawning is not fully understood, because in this game I really had the barbs under control for the most part, and would just oscillate a set of horsemen or archers back and forth between two prime farming zones for barb villages.

When the big horde spawn occurred, I could swear it was not due to letting the barb villages just sit there for too long and fester. I am examining the log files to see if I can detect a pattern.

After the massive barb uprising in 270BC there was never another uprising and in the late game the number of barbs waned back from the early count of 3 per hut down to only one per hut by the time I settled Mickey Mouse's Ears. This seems just bass-ackwards to me. I saved the late huts to try an promote up a few cavalry to Elites, but there were so few barbs coming out by that time in the game, that it was hard to get promoted.

One thing I have noticed is that the routine the pops the barb warriors out of the huts seems to only pop out warriors proportionate to the available land squares around the hut. A hut on a pennisula tip rarely pops three warriors. I haven't seen the warriors pop out of the hut and land with three in one square. They always seem to be spread out in three different squares and this part of the program that finds where to pop the barb warriors may not be able to handle restricted land masses.

I'm going to run a test map that uses raging hordes and then surrounds the barb village with workers before moving a warrior into the hut, just to see what happens with the barb warriors that would get popped.

more later ...............
 
As a postscript to the discussion of "two settlers out of goody huts" being unfairly skewed in a game, I won't post the details of the game score yet, but I think the bonus points were around 3800 points.
 
I almost can't believe this even as I post this message:

Joan_Improving_My_Land.jpg


Both England and France are Gracious toward me! :love:

I got almost everyone to gang up on Japan after he took out one of my cities on the NE island.
At one point the entire world was against him.:p
Joan has thanked me for assisting in the fight against Japan.

Has anyone else encountered this before?

Joan and I do have a ROP so that she doesn't keep blocking my railroads so I hope that she doesn't violate this.
You can see some of the dozens of infantry that I could not defend against.
Should I be concerned that Joan is about to annihilate Germany?

Edit:
Ok. Now there is a road there! (1600 A.D.).
 
I've finished the game via diplo. I'm really proud of my diplo ability, since I managed to get 5 out of 7 votes w/o declaring war on my rival...simply, everyone knew I was the ones who would lead Humanity to prosperity.

BTW, finished in 1610, more or less!!!!!!! really awesome
 
Pelman, you are in deep doodoo!!

When you have an ROP with another civ AND you have railroads in place, then that can be a death sentence unless you are so militarily superior to the other civ as to be able to guarantee a successful defense of any city against a reasonable sized army from the other civ.

Your picture looks like you have Berlin being defended by a lone pikeman and since the city is located on grassland underneath, then the defender would only be a speed bump for Joan's infantry.

Much of the interpretation of what Joan is up to would hinge on what lies further to the north. If Joan is alread at war with someone who has cities up to the north of you, then you might still survive for a few more turns.

IF Joan has no other enemies to the north that provide more tasty targets than the undefended Tiblisi and virtually undefended cities including your capital, then any time the AI units stop off in the middle of your territory instead of using the railroads to pass through, you can assume something bad is afoot.

I would add that I cannot think of a reason why I would use railroads to jump up on an unroaded mountain that is not adjacent to a city. With the two stacks of infantry Joan has, she could take out 8 or 10 of your core cities all in one turn if each city is only defended by pikes.

Let me know if you end up needing a stiff drink or a few band-aids.

Just for the record, I rarely leave ROPs in place once railroads become a major feature. You cannot trust even your best friend in this game if they have infinite movement ability. Even with the ROP, if your ally is a bozo and happens to stand a warrior or even a lowly worker on a major railroad junction, then they can shut down your ability to use your railroads even if it is just out of ignorance with no malice attached.
 
Here is what happened in my game:

I built Berlin in the starting tile. I started off with max science (0 income). I explored with 2 warriors to the south and then split them east and west. I paid 2gpt to Russia early for a worker. I wasn't particularly lucky with the huts. Got a couple of techs and a warrior. No settlers for me.

Did anyone else notice that the barbs were stronger than usual, or did I just have some bad luck with them? They were beating fortified spearmen in cities and fortified on mountains across rivers. They were rarely losing any hit points when attacking me.

I got the Great Library in 10BC and got 8 techs to catch up. At this point, I have a decent defensive military built up and I have the southern border sealed up with culture boundaries. It is time to build culture and expand up north. I switch to Republic a few turns later to help speed this phase along.

In 510AD, I discover the island northeast of me. There are 3 goodie huts on it which yield me only money, maps, and angry warriors. I establish an embassy in China and examine Beijing. Tell me if this sounds strange. The units that China had in this city were as follows: 6 settlers, 12 spearmen, and 2 archers. Is this supposed to represent their entire army or just what they have in this city? I thought it was just this city but after seeing this, maybe I'm wrong.

In 700AD, England gets Sun Tsu when I'm only 1 turn away. At least I am able to switch to Leo's and get the GA that way. I'm still building up my culture.

I finally get the FP built (manually) in 1290AD. I have been avoiding wars and just building up culture and science. I did have a very brief war with Japan around this time and I managed to get 2 cities despite having almost an entirely defensive military.

I sign an MPP with Russia since they are huge and we share a large border. In 1540AD, France and Russia go to war, dragging me into it. On the VERY SAME TURN, they sign a peace treaty and France won't speak to me. I get England allied against France. During the war, I get a GL and will save him for the UN. The Hoover Dam is only 8 turns away from being built so I will chance it. I inspece the two other cities building the Hoover Dam. Russia (Moscow) is 55 turns away and France (Lyons) is 37 turns.

After I capture 1 French city, I make peace since I have no offensive army to continue the war. I am able to get lots of gold since I am bigger. Of course this makes England angry since we had an allience. The very next turn, France and Russia are at it again and I get dragged right back to war. I capture another French city, move all of my troops into it, and give the city to England. This gets them back to polite and is a quick way for me to get all of my troops back to Germany.

In 1685, I start a war with England and drag Russia in using an MPP. England was number 1 and very large. They wouldn't have trouble with me or Russia, but with both of us teaming up, they had no chance. Here is something strange but useful to know. I had 6 tanks outside Oxford. 5 of them were stacked together in grassland and 1 was along in a jungle. England attacked the one tank in the jungle which had a defensive bonus instead of attacking the stack of 5. Not only are they more likely to win a battle against the stack of 5, the attacker will not advance, thus remaining in the city to defend it on my turn. Obviously they should have attacked the stack of 5.

I eventually capture London and get Sun Tsu. I make peace with England and they give me a French city that they captured previously. This city has JSB in it. I give London to Russia because there are 15 resistors in it and I doubt if I could hold it very long.

1766AD: Our People Want The Iron Works!!! What? Where? This is the second game in a row that I was able to build this. The last one was Grey Fox's tournamen (Vet 1-3). After searching, I see that it is York. This city has 13 production, but only 3 after corruption. I buy a courthouse and start working on the Iron Works. This will still not be a very productive city, but I can't resist building this wonder.

Now here is something that makes me mad. I had an undefended transport filled with 8 elite Panzers. Not very smart but I was taking a chance. I moved him along my coast, careful never to get within 3 tiles of a Japanese fleet near the island to the northeast. There is no way the Japanese could have seen this transport due to fog of war, but as soon as I moved him out of the city, they came right after him (and sunk him). I'm not upset since I was taking a chance moving him around undefended, but how did Japan see this ship? I read some other posts about the AI cheating with the fog of war and this kind of convinces me that something is not right about it.

In 1798AD, I get the UN (GL I was saving). Can't do an election since England and Japan are still the top two on the histograph and they hate me. I land some elite Panzers in Japan and take Osaka, get a leader, rush a settler, abandon Osaka, and rebuild the city. I then rush an airport, fly over tons of Panzers and crush Japan.

In 1846, all trade agreements with England expire. I cancel them and declare war, eliminating them from the game. I am now heading for a space race so I want to plant spies so I can keep tabs on them. Here are the results:
TURN 1: Russia (caught), India (caught), Chine (caught)
TURN 2: Russia (caught), India (caught + war)
TURN 3: Russia (success)
Man, what a waste of money.

In 1864, I take a chance and have a UN vote. I vote for me, Russia votes for herself, and the others abstain. Oh well.

In 1950, I finish my spaceship and launch (score: 2307).

Andy S
 
im still buzy but i captures paris with a army with a army of swordsmen in 150ad.i got the leader in 1700bc
so i think im lucky im winng vs france and im going to crush russia next
 
well, i got to 800AD and then lost..... my harddrive!!

unfortunately wont be able to replay this one as i know too much. I got SunTzu's and was building the FP way up in the northeast brick-by-brick. Entered the golden age on the completion of suntzu's -- its too bad because i wanted to wait.

France had become a cultural behemoth, so their one NE city wouldnt flip. i was working on flipping some poor english cities that ended up there.

about 300AD, England and France started a war. Then immediately after, Russia decided to demand from me. I refused and got England to join in my war against russia. Russia and I traded cities, and unfortunately i had to break the alliance 2 turns before it finished :( -- i had 8 turns to go on sun tzu's and was about to lose Berlin to the Russians.

After the war, i built up my military and was about to re-attack russia (no iron), but unfortunatly, my hard drive is now toast :(

good luck all other players!
 
This game has gotten a bit tougher. I have finished off England and have the continent except France who has the southern peninsula area, and all the way up to where Moscow is.

So far England, India and Russia have been eliminated. France got mech infantry so I'm waiting for Modern Armor. On the other continent I engineered a war with Japan vs. China. Japain is getting beaten badly. But because China is using infantry against defending infantry the number of troops is evening out. Soon japan hopefully will be able to halt the Chinese advance. Before China had about 100 infantry, now it has 70. Japan had about 65 before, now 50.

China doesn't have any oil, which is really good. Once I finish France off with upgrading my 50 panzers to MA, then I will probably invade China if they are going for spaceship. Built the UN in Moscow so no worries there.
 
continued from last post.... My milking pretty much failed. I relied on apollo to tell me the year of a culture vic, that I was trying to avoid. And found an error in it, after I deleated all my scientific cultural improvements, I found that I had only gained one turn on the toward the impending culture vic, my current culture was 89367, and it was the late 1800's. So I deleted every culture Item and found that the next turn, I had still only gained one turn. I let lavro no about this problem and it turned out that apollo still took into effect delleted culture improvements when calculating, so I deleted all my religous improvements probably when I didn't have to. My population contiuned to grow for the next hundred years, but my score grew none. So I gave up the milking and in the late 1900's attacked china to get a domination vic. I went in with a few armies of MA and MI a few scattered MA and about seven nukes. I hit their big cities all with nukes before attaking them, and used my spy to succesfully steal their miltary plans, and nuked their big stack of units, about 90 MI. I didn't do as well as I had hoped, or as well as I did last GOM. I finished around the 1970's with a score of around 6800.
 
I wish that long term we can collect some data to better understand the variables that lead to the massive barbarian uprisings. I know that some of it has to do with the age that a barb village is allowed to get to before you destroy the village but I believe that I have been observing that one old billage on the planet will cause all the villages to go mental at the same time even when the other villages may only be one or two turns new.

Here is a map from my GOTM-8 in 270BC when Seven (7) barb villages went ballastic all at the same time.

The Gold arrows point to locations with villages where 24 horsemen have just spawned in each village.

The Green arrows are 4 locations where I have just destroyed a barb village or war party on the previous turn. To the far south east, I had used an army of two horsemen to smack a village on hills.

You should be able to click on the map and load a large view into a separate window that should be 2 times the size of this view.



What I was doing for most of the game was defining small regions of frontier where I could move horsemen back and forth between two prime barb village spawning locations in only 5 or 6 turns. The key was to have the locations be far enough apart to let a village spawn in one place while the horsemen was standing at the the other location. Then I would kill one village and let the horseman recover and just head back towards the other location and a barb village would almost always have spawned back in that location.

Just oscillating back and forth was like "barb farming" for almost 2500 years. Every turn I was smacking at least one village for 25 gold and often it was two or three villages in one turn.

The barbs were very aggressive in their village spawning and the frequency seemed to keep jacking up a notch here and a notch there until they finally got to this turn in 270BC where all the barbs boiled over at one time.

Of the seven villages that spawned hordes only one of them was more than 5 turns old (the one up north or England). The two villages on the eastern coast near the mouth of the inland sea (down near the title box) were only 3 and 4 turns old respectively.

The village on the north tip was one turn old.

The village on the far west tundra tip (west or Lyons and Dortmund), the village on the tundra tip South East of Paris and the Village on the far east jungle coast had just appeared in this turn because I had killed other villages nearby in 290 or 280BC as shown by the units at the green arrows.

I was using the cash to rush settlers, galleys, and improvements whenever possible. There was just too much land to garrison or settle all in the few turns after Cathy became a postcript and Joan committed hormone driven suicide.

The horde spawned from the village near England ended up killing my horseman up there before descending over to make patty-cake with Libby but otherwise I had to deal with the the other 6 piles of pestilence.

I am fairly convinced that the festering village north of Libby probably set off the uprising due to its age and the fact that I had to send a horseman over that way to help speed Libby's attempts to deal with the problem.

Since I do not fully understand the variables (read this as "what are the rules") that control barb horde spawning, I am just guessing as to why I seemed to have lost control of the barb situation in this year when I seemed to have it so well in hand throughout most of the game.
 
cracker,

I think your right on about the barbarians,my game with multiple barbarian camps uprising simultaneously would support this theory.

However, this map is 270BC, no sign of China, yet in a previous post (the settler one) you made contact and embassy with China in 400BC, I guess just confusion with all the different versions of the games you were playing.

CB
 
Sorry about the 400BC post, that was just a brain cramp that should have said "about 400AD". I think I have editted the date to reflect the actual time line.

I got the Great Lighthouse in about 310AD and immediately threw galleys out from Dortmund and away from the War with Libby up by Liverpool and Oxford. (notice also on the map above, how crappy the placement of Liverpool and Oxford are on the northeast tip of England's territory.)

The barbs up on the north tip had also lead me to the discovery of the "Weeeee Island" off the north tip and when I moved to claim that I found the West Ear of Mickey Mouses head. It was a thousand years later before I saw the East island just because I was too busy elsewhere.

In one sense, the war with England was a backwards God send because it had me with galleys up off that peninsula and side of the map just as the Great Lighthouse came on line. Without the war, I probably would have had galleys more over to the east and southeast side. But with the war, I only had enough tools to be on one side and that side turned out to be the key to the end game strategy.
 
Hi cracker,

Now you know why my first post on that thread showed surprise at the date. I don't feel so bad with my discovery date now. Although I could have done the domination routine in the 1100's AD, I'm doing the milking thing, <sigh>.

CB
 
CB, You have more stamina than I, gunga din!! ;)

I debated a milk run, but milking from 1100AD until 2050AD sounded like torture. If I was going to that much milk, then I would have to make some ice cream or something enjoyable.

It sounds like your game was almost identical to mine.
 
In my game I didn't farm barb villiges the way everyone else has seemed to. Most of you had horseman on the frontier moving around like cracker mentioned the way he farmed his barbs. I kept my horsies stationed in specific points around the map so that I was only a few turns from spawning locations. I then made a point to trade maps with the AI every turn. The funny thing about the way the AI cheats is that I have found that almost always the AI knows where the barb. camps are. So all I had to do was examine the map after trading to see where the barbs had popped up. No guessing where the barbs popped up, no random searching with the horsies, just trade maps and go to the camps. Though in my game their was only two uprisings all game, lucky me I guess.
 
Skater,

You are exactly on track with reversing the AI cheat ability that gives them total visibility of every unit, town, village, and resource on the map. On a map like this, knowing that you can get the AI to reveal the locations of barb villages that are no where near its territory just buy trading world maps is a great exploit.

This is one of those exploits that should be documented and put on the rules page of GOTMs as an allowable exploit. (After all its the AI cheat that creates the exploit and not the human player). I feel that any player playing this type of game map that did not know how to use the "AI Worldwide Instant Barb Locator" would be operating a severe disadvantage.

This barb locator exploit combines well with the "sell the map every turn" exploit, that becomes a must do sort of action on Emperor and Diety difficulty levels. You can sell you map every turn to every civ you know and earn somewhere between 1 and 5 gold per turn per civ. These is tedious busywork, but in tight games it can generate the one or two coins that will make the difference.

In a game like this one on Monarch and with Raging barbs, I only had Libby to trade with for about 500 years, but every turn I sold or traded her my world map to gain visibility of barb camps near my territory or gain a coin or two.

This exploit does not work to peek at barb villages under the Fog of War in tiles you have not yet gained access to see, but it does reveal those villages that are just beyond your visibility.

Perhaps Matrix will add this exploit to the list of OK todo things, so that it will help level the playing field a bit.
 
I had multiple and simultaneous barb hordes as well but managed to survive them ok. How I will survive the TWO French stacks of doom though is beyond me. Despite generating four leaders so far I am way behind and Joan has enough power to destroy Germany in the 1700s AD.
 
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