samildanach
Necrophile
Moonsinger said:Not me! I'm still playing Chieftain from time to time.
Just stick with it and one day you'll be able to win occassionally on warlord.... just like me
GOTM / COTM too difficult?
- Thread starter KingAlbert
- Start date
Just stick with it and one day you'll be able to win occassionally on warlord.... just like me
ainwood said:^^ That's the important bit! Gonna come play with us someday?
Sure, I love to try again someday.
I'm not sure I would agree with that. I am comfortable on Monarch. I had a good scores in the last two monarch games. I have been playing Open. (I don't qualify for conquest.) I seem to be consistantly falling behind in the MA. I don't think the extra units would have made a difference. I had ~10 cities plus a couple of settlers by 1000BC, which is better than any of my previous games. I must be playing REALLY, REALLY bad as I just got seriously overrun.Longasc said:
Unless there is something different about the conquest class game beyond the extra units. I guess I am going to have to check it out. 
Randy
Prince
I like the harder levels sometimes, for my non GOTM/COTM I play all levels depending on what I'm trying to do. So I would keep it the same as is, if you look in the history there are some easy level so we will probly see easy levels again.
denyd
Emperor
dvandenderg: Your game sounds like mine did about a year ago. I learned (the hard way) that lots of trading, workers and focused military usage helped me stay even through the middle age and then used the TOE slingshot to move to the front and never look back. What I need to learn to do now, is to develop a viable military earlier while keeping up the city growth, so that I can reach the domination limit much earlier. A lot of the top players have reached that point by 500 AD and I'm 500-1000 years later than that.
denyd said:
It's always encouraging to hear you're on the right path. Thanks
I have been concentrating on the start and I am seeing the improvement. My current analysis is showing my problem to be Government and City Management. Too many improvements but not enough to keep up with research. Too many troops but not enough to do much without better tech. Not enough gold to buy the tech I need fast enough. In GOTM33 and COTM03, the AI trade the tech so fast it is tough to leverage the trades before they all have it. I usually go to Monarchy and then switch to republic later after I have already started to fall behind. The 2gpt support eats me up. I am going to have to put my empires on a diet. I guess the trick is figuring out what I need to do and only do that.
I think getting to the domination limit early requires better focus on military then on cuture and research. That and not getting killed.
I am goiing to have to practice that a bit more.dvandenberg, I must admit that you convinced me. I must have gotten some more experience in spite of having only finished 2 games in the last 6 month. Now I am comfortable at Demigod and do things very differently than before.
Who knows, perhaps after some COTMs I will be ready for Deity level? I doubt I ever will, I do not like some tactics and methods necessary at higher levels and the changed playstyle at times at all.
But you are right... maybe Demigod is too difficult. The problem is that all players that set up the COTM are real cracks and experts. I am not thus good and see how I underestimated the problems of a Monarch level player with this COTM.
Perhaps the GOTM-Team should hire an expert Monarch level player? This is problematic, I know... but too difficult kills the fun, as it is overtaxing and the learning effect small compared to the frustration.
Who knows, perhaps after some COTMs I will be ready for Deity level? I doubt I ever will, I do not like some tactics and methods necessary at higher levels and the changed playstyle at times at all.
But you are right... maybe Demigod is too difficult. The problem is that all players that set up the COTM are real cracks and experts. I am not thus good and see how I underestimated the problems of a Monarch level player with this COTM.
Perhaps the GOTM-Team should hire an expert Monarch level player?
This is problematic, I know... but too difficult kills the fun, as it is overtaxing and the learning effect small compared to the frustration.
Longasc, it might the amount of time for the lessions to sink in, too. I've only been play GOTM for a short while. Before that, I would play Regent for fun and Monarch for challenge. I would pick the victory conditions I liked and only play good civs and postions. Lots of reloads, too. Too many years of bad habits to overcome quickly. Everyone says the jump to Emperor is the toughest. And that ain't no lie. True be told, I am playing badly compared you guys who are able to beat the AI on higher levels. But I'm catching up.
akots
Poet
Yep, I hate Deity or Sid games. It is somewhat masochistic to play and quite possible to lose even with small mistakes. But you need to play them from time to time just to stay in shape and not to relax. Good idea to get comfortable with it is to participate in some Succession Games which are running aplenty in the SG forum. If a player can win Emperor on his own, usually a Deity SG is a no problem unless it is Always War.
predesad
Emperor
Perhaps I have a possible solution to the players who are not ready for the higher levels, start a GOTM jr competition. This level of play would be for those players who find Regent level or below a real challenge. Of course, some research would need to be done to see if there was enough interest in such a league. I do not think it would affect GOTM competition because the experienced players would not want to play at the lower difficulties. IN fact it might possibly even increase interest in GOTM by drawing in more low level players.
The basic idea is that GOTM seems to fluctuate from Regent difficulty and above. GOTM jr could fluctuate from chieftain level to Regent with maybe an occassional Monarch. Just as the Conquest class in GOTM has certain requirements in order to be able to play it and if you do too well you are required to move up to the OPEN level, so too could the GOTM jr have a requirement and players who consistently did too well would be ineligible to compete and be required to move up to GOTM.
There would be two ways to implement this:
1) make a lower level version of each GOTM / COTM, for example Monarch GOTM wouild be Warlord GOTM jr, Diety GOTM would be Monarch GOTM jr.
2) have someone independently set up the GOTM jr games.
If this seems like a good idea and there is the possibility of it being pursued I would happily volunteer to help set up the jr level competition, such as make the games each month, provided it did not prohibit me from participating in the regular GOTM (actually COTM, I only started GOTM when it started the conquest game)
The basic idea is that GOTM seems to fluctuate from Regent difficulty and above. GOTM jr could fluctuate from chieftain level to Regent with maybe an occassional Monarch. Just as the Conquest class in GOTM has certain requirements in order to be able to play it and if you do too well you are required to move up to the OPEN level, so too could the GOTM jr have a requirement and players who consistently did too well would be ineligible to compete and be required to move up to GOTM.
There would be two ways to implement this:
1) make a lower level version of each GOTM / COTM, for example Monarch GOTM wouild be Warlord GOTM jr, Diety GOTM would be Monarch GOTM jr.
2) have someone independently set up the GOTM jr games.
If this seems like a good idea and there is the possibility of it being pursued I would happily volunteer to help set up the jr level competition, such as make the games each month, provided it did not prohibit me from participating in the regular GOTM (actually COTM, I only started GOTM when it started the conquest game)
Mauer
Pompous Noble
Wow 
, Guess this thread isn't challenging enough 
. It sounds like a lovely idea if the interest is up. I almost didn't even try my first GOTM, because I thought Monarch was too rough. I can see people trying a regent gotm and never moving on, just getting too comfortable. But....... what do I know
, Guess this thread isn't challenging enough . It sounds like a lovely idea if the interest is up. I almost didn't even try my first GOTM, because I thought Monarch was too rough. I can see people trying a regent gotm and never moving on, just getting too comfortable. But....... what do I know
samildanach
Necrophile
I think the player community could probably stand a warlord/chieftain COTM given that there are two tournaments now. See what sort of interest it generates.
I had a look in the DoMs forum and he had organised a players choice game. Where the players voted on the level (and various other stuff) of what an upcoming GOTM should be played at. Perhaps a public poll is in order here to shake the lurker tree and see if people would be interested in playing a COTM at a lower level.
I had a look in the DoMs forum and he had organised a players choice game. Where the players voted on the level (and various other stuff) of what an upcoming GOTM should be played at. Perhaps a public poll is in order here to shake the lurker tree and see if people would be interested in playing a COTM at a lower level.
Ronald
Emperor
Cotm/Gotm are the only civ games I'm currently playing due to RL time constraints. I would like to play the occasional chieftain or warlord game once in a while.
Ronald
Ronald
Detlef Richter
The Pikeman
Let the games as they are.
Ok, ok, sometimes they are very hard to play. But to try it out is better then to stay away. Join some SG's and learn the skill to play a higher level GOTM or COTM.
Ok, ok, sometimes they are very hard to play. But to try it out is better then to stay away. Join some SG's and learn the skill to play a higher level GOTM or COTM.
Why not, the idea of the junior league sounds interesting. Perhaps worth a try?
But it interferes a bit with the Conquests-mode of the COTM/GOTMs.
GOTM at Emperor level are probably really scaring away people. They say, I never managed to do it on my own up to now, why sign up for such a game? Learning by frustration? I think not many players will do that.
A Warlord-Monarch game would attract players of these classes.
But there is the "Training Day", and I fear if only low-level players compete in a GOTM, the learning effect would be less, because the experienced players will not play at this level and their ideas will be missed in the discussion.
But it interferes a bit with the Conquests-mode of the COTM/GOTMs.
GOTM at Emperor level are probably really scaring away people. They say, I never managed to do it on my own up to now, why sign up for such a game? Learning by frustration? I think not many players will do that.
A Warlord-Monarch game would attract players of these classes.
But there is the "Training Day", and I fear if only low-level players compete in a GOTM, the learning effect would be less, because the experienced players will not play at this level and their ideas will be missed in the discussion.
grahamiam
In debt to Mr. Geisel
Longasc said:
i'm going out on a limb here as i've had limited experience with map modding but might as well try to stick my foot in my mouth again
(and give ainwood more stuff to worry about )since cotm doesn't have to worry about 3 versions like gotm(mac, civiii, and ptw), it should be possible to make the C3C game from the same map at a lower difficulty. for this month, say open and preditor@DG, then conquest would be 1 level below @ emporer or monarch (edit). this would eliminate a cotm or gotm jr setup, with seperate scoring, tracking, checking, awards, etc, etc. lower difficulty levels automatically produce lower firaxis scores, and jason could account for it as well.
this would take some work, however, since these are modified maps. if they were random, then it would just be a matter of using ainwood's seedbeast utility.
however, thinking further, this may not be true. i believe you can make a mod'ed map without assigning a difficulty level to via a .bix (or is it bic or biq)file. then, when you first open the scenerio via the conquest screen, you can then set the difficulty level and opponents. maybe someone from the mod community could weigh in?
grs
nameless one
I really think it would take much fun out of the competition to play virtually uncomparable games; i.e. games with diffenrent difficulty levels.
The current C/GOTM provides a robust competition supporting C3C and PTW/Civ3, and promotes improving the Civ skills of the participants/lurkers. I think running a parallel GOTMjr adds additional task work to the Staff, while undermining the 2nd function of improving the general skill level of the community. It creates a comfort zone for less experienced players, and allows them to continue using poor strategies in a successful manner. Holding a GOTMjr would be a disservice to these players.
Considering that at Regent Level the AI gets no benefit in production or research compared to the player, and is encumbered with all the poor logic choices its programming forces on it, there is no reason why a human player with a little experience should not consistently trounce the AI. (Other than using poor strategies, which they should change.) The Conquest level bonuses should allow a modestly competent Regent level player to hold their own at Monarch level. Emperor and above require considerable skill, but that's one of the points of C/Gotm, to improve the skill level so that more players are capable at this level. There are lots of resources to assist the players to compete at higher levels, especially the Spoiler threads. Rather than consistently winning at Warlord (or Chieften), wouldn't it be a far better goal to win more often than not at Monarch and be competitive at Emperor?
Considering that at Regent Level the AI gets no benefit in production or research compared to the player, and is encumbered with all the poor logic choices its programming forces on it, there is no reason why a human player with a little experience should not consistently trounce the AI. (Other than using poor strategies, which they should change.) The Conquest level bonuses should allow a modestly competent Regent level player to hold their own at Monarch level. Emperor and above require considerable skill, but that's one of the points of C/Gotm, to improve the skill level so that more players are capable at this level. There are lots of resources to assist the players to compete at higher levels, especially the Spoiler threads. Rather than consistently winning at Warlord (or Chieften), wouldn't it be a far better goal to win more often than not at Monarch and be competitive at Emperor?
I agree with you, civ steve. It would be additional work.
Between Monarch and Emperor is a big leap, I would also say between Emperor and Demigod because of AI's extra settler.
What level should GOTM's be? Where will it end -> DEITY? Sid is probably out of discussion.
I would say: Emperor. Newbies should hone their skills and read the fora until they have Monarch level. Everyone not comfortable at Emperor level can play in the Conquest class.
Still, there are some players that can win on Deity. But where is the large majority?
There is perhaps really no sense in Warlord or Regent because you can do many things wrong and still win.
Between Monarch and Emperor is a big leap, I would also say between Emperor and Demigod because of AI's extra settler.
What level should GOTM's be? Where will it end -> DEITY? Sid is probably out of discussion.
I would say: Emperor. Newbies should hone their skills and read the fora until they have Monarch level. Everyone not comfortable at Emperor level can play in the Conquest class.
Still, there are some players that can win on Deity. But where is the large majority?
There is perhaps really no sense in Warlord or Regent because you can do many things wrong and still win.
