I have never heard of this bug before. SideshowBob, could you please elaborate on the exact circumstances under which this happens?
GOTM Techniques, Cheats, Rules & Discussion Thread
- Thread starter starlifter
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SideshowBob
Ah, winter finally.
I have no idea actually why or when it kicks in. It's something with that you have too many cities and or too many units, I think it's the former. It has never happened to me before as I'v never bothered to build that many cities. I don't even know if a patch would fix this. I'll see if it works. But I remeber reading a long discussion about this somewhere; how it works and how you could use it for your advantage.
I'm bringing this discussion to its own thread from the GOTM43 spoiler thread to get more input from other players.
Tanstaafl:
"As a "spoiler" about GOTM'ing...I discovered the ability to load the starting game xx_b4000.sav into the CivII map editor and it shows the entire world with specials and huts, but no cities. I don't consider this cheating but another way to out smart the AI and find the best goodies and terrain spots for my cities.
I did some black clicking but that wasn't very helpful and was very time consuming. Then I created a blank map the same size as the GOTM map and from the starting point of my city I created the landscape, and specials/goodie distribution as I found what the patterns were. That was a bit tedious, too.
What do you all think about this map editor loading and revealing the world? Is it cheating or not?"
ElephantU:
"It boggles my mind that viewing the map was never explicitly listed as cheating. I think it must fall into the area of "always presumed...". DoM, can we add that to the primary Rules page?"
Ali Ardavan:
" have known about this for some time now but I did consider it cheating so I refrained from it. But your statement makes me wonder. Combining black clicking and Map analysis you can construct the entire map (with some caveats covered earlier by ElephantU). You would know the location of all huts and all specials. The only thing you would not know is the type of terrain at any given location.
Why should we allow this much more tedious approach and not allow viewing the map outright in the map editor?
Personally, my biggest disappointment with all civ versions is that seeing the entire world is not a game option. Playing on known maps without this option is ridiculous, yet a world map was supplied since the first version of Civ.
I often play on maps that I have designed myself and freely look at the map in the map editor."
Tanstaafl:
"As a "spoiler" about GOTM'ing...I discovered the ability to load the starting game xx_b4000.sav into the CivII map editor and it shows the entire world with specials and huts, but no cities. I don't consider this cheating but another way to out smart the AI and find the best goodies and terrain spots for my cities.
I did some black clicking but that wasn't very helpful and was very time consuming. Then I created a blank map the same size as the GOTM map and from the starting point of my city I created the landscape, and specials/goodie distribution as I found what the patterns were. That was a bit tedious, too.
What do you all think about this map editor loading and revealing the world? Is it cheating or not?"
ElephantU:
"It boggles my mind that viewing the map was never explicitly listed as cheating. I think it must fall into the area of "always presumed...". DoM, can we add that to the primary Rules page?"
Ali Ardavan:
" have known about this for some time now but I did consider it cheating so I refrained from it. But your statement makes me wonder. Combining black clicking and Map analysis you can construct the entire map (with some caveats covered earlier by ElephantU). You would know the location of all huts and all specials. The only thing you would not know is the type of terrain at any given location.
Why should we allow this much more tedious approach and not allow viewing the map outright in the map editor?
Personally, my biggest disappointment with all civ versions is that seeing the entire world is not a game option. Playing on known maps without this option is ridiculous, yet a world map was supplied since the first version of Civ.
I often play on maps that I have designed myself and freely look at the map in the map editor."
Seeing the entire world, or knowing the basic land masses and oceans, is not unusual at the start of a CivII game. The few scenarios I have played all show the entire world, with the cities existing at the start of the game.
To win the game, playing by basic "non-cheating" rules, a player still must pay attention to details, his/her plan and create strategies in city production, wonder development and diplomatic/war relations. Having a basic knowledge of the world shouldn't be that much of an advantage. What does the AI know about the whole world...well, the AI knows all the other civ's parts, some where from 3-7 parts of the world.
To win the game, playing by basic "non-cheating" rules, a player still must pay attention to details, his/her plan and create strategies in city production, wonder development and diplomatic/war relations. Having a basic knowledge of the world shouldn't be that much of an advantage. What does the AI know about the whole world...well, the AI knows all the other civ's parts, some where from 3-7 parts of the world.
Seeing the map ahead of time is cheating. It may not have been added to the list of rules, because, as was noted, it is very obvious.
That is one of the reasons why your first pass through the game is the only one that is allowed.
That is also par of the reason that people should not upload maps of their game as they are playing for others to see.
I think the reason it was not explicitly stated was that no one thought about revealing the map beyond using Cheat mode, so that general rule was thought to be enough to cover it.
That is one of the reasons why your first pass through the game is the only one that is allowed.
That is also par of the reason that people should not upload maps of their game as they are playing for others to see.
I think the reason it was not explicitly stated was that no one thought about revealing the map beyond using Cheat mode, so that general rule was thought to be enough to cover it.
Added a line to the main rules page that states:
'Revealing the map in any fashion is not allowed at any point of the game.'
'Revealing the map in any fashion is not allowed at any point of the game.'
Thnak you Tanstaafl, for starting this thread. This discussion definitely deserved its own thread.
Thank you Duke, for confirming what ElephantU and I presumed.
However, I think a discussion is warranted as to why we are disallowing revealing of the map while we are allowing the combination of black clicking and Map analysis, which in a cumbersome way reveals almost all that matters about the map (location of land, huts, and specials; which is everything except the type of terrain at any given location).
Thank you Duke, for confirming what ElephantU and I presumed.
However, I think a discussion is warranted as to why we are disallowing revealing of the map while we are allowing the combination of black clicking and Map analysis, which in a cumbersome way reveals almost all that matters about the map (location of land, huts, and specials; which is everything except the type of terrain at any given location).
la fayette
King
Duke of Marlbrough said:
clap, clap, clap
I agree with Ali, because there are all of these "techniques" allowed for discerning what the pattern of huts and specials are why is revealing the map any different? Because its faster? Because its more complete?
I would like some discussion, too, on how much the AI knows about the amp if anyone can identify that piece of information. Playing all of the other civ's in a game the AI has access to information of all of those civ's.
I would like some discussion, too, on how much the AI knows about the amp if anyone can identify that piece of information. Playing all of the other civ's in a game the AI has access to information of all of those civ's.
I posted this originally in the GOTM43 Spoiler thread as another thought occurred to me...
I've responded to this discussion in the separate thread but I would like to make one other point about "revealing the map"...
Isn't using the black click method revealing the map? The game itself has things that allow players to learn information about the terrain. I guess using the posted "patterns" for huts and specials is not "revealing the map" but it does do that to a degree. There is also the point to be made that the whole part of the map is NOT revealed, the cities and units of other civ's. Only the terrain and specials are shown, just as some could construct by black clicking or building the map in the editor as you move your own units around.
I guess the issue might boil down to something being too easy versus something that is much more cumbersome and time consuming as to their legality in this gaming situation.
I've responded to this discussion in the separate thread but I would like to make one other point about "revealing the map"...
Isn't using the black click method revealing the map? The game itself has things that allow players to learn information about the terrain. I guess using the posted "patterns" for huts and specials is not "revealing the map" but it does do that to a degree. There is also the point to be made that the whole part of the map is NOT revealed, the cities and units of other civ's. Only the terrain and specials are shown, just as some could construct by black clicking or building the map in the editor as you move your own units around.
I guess the issue might boil down to something being too easy versus something that is much more cumbersome and time consuming as to their legality in this gaming situation.
It was allowed from the previous GOTM staff and was never really questioned, so it stood.
I personally think it's cheating since you can use it to tell where land is for trireme's and expansion. Plus, not all versions can do it.
Let's keep it to the Rules thread though, so that it'a all in one spot.
I personally think it's cheating since you can use it to tell where land is for trireme's and expansion. Plus, not all versions can do it.
Let's keep it to the Rules thread though, so that it'a all in one spot.
I guess the next questions is, does that apply to 'black clicking'?
If people want to discuss it here, feel free.
If people want to discuss it here, feel free.
Andu Indorin
Retired Druid
Tanstaafl said:
I'd say the issue is far from the "ease" of one versus the other. I view the matter quite differently, and do so in terms of the intent of the game design as well as the GotM scoring system.
In terms of the game's design intent, the fact that the "reveal map" function appears in the Cheat Menu makes pretty clear the intent that players should explore the map. To use the map editor to achieve the same results is simply using a different means to achieve much the same ends.
Beyond the intent of the game designers, there is the question of unintended "bugs" in the program design that players have discovered through playing the game. These bugs should be broken down into two basic categories, those that further Civ 2 as an historical simulation, and those that clearly cannot be justified from any historical perspective. Of the former, some examples are using multiple Engineers, using precharged Engineers, the rehoming of caravans/freight, etc. One such bug relative to this immediate discussion is "Black Clicking." This, to a degree, can be justified in terms of the historical experience. It can be thought of as the limited geographic knowledge that exists among pre-civilized cultures. Recalling that humans existed throughout the planet prior to the advent of civilization; and that economic and cultural exchanges existed between these peoples, a sense of "what lay beyond the horizon" existed. Early explorers and traders often relied on such local knowledge when determining which way they would go next. Of course, such hearsay knowledge is always sketchy at best; hence, a good reason for "blacking out" unexplored areas. Granted, Civ 2 players generally have happier experiences than, say, the many explorers who sought the Seven Cities of Cibola or El Dorado. (In a similar way, using the Find City function to locate AI Wonder cities can be similarly justified in terms of the way in which the early civilizations become cognizant of one another. Knowledge of other advanced cultures travelled as far and as wide in the ancient and classical periods as did the products of their material culture.)
Using the pattern of specials and huts probably falls into the second category of unintended bugs. Needless to say, the distribution of the world's peoples and resources aren't anywhere near as "geometically distributed." Not surprisingly, these patterns were eliminated from Civ 3 -- one of the few improvements in otherwise disappointing update.
The second aspect of this issue involves the GotM scoring system, which rewards finishing early, and hence rewards good planning as well as a degree of good luck. Here revealing the map to discover terrain makes a world of difference. Being able to view the map from the outset allows the development of strategies of expansion much earlier than otherwise. Knowing exactly which direction to commence exploration that will yield the highest chance of obtaining advanced tribes -- a terrain based variable -- and thus an "accelerated" start is probably the biggest advantage. Similarly, knowing which landmasses to initially avoid -- again based on terrain -- when Trireme exploration begins eliminates the element of chance that is built into the game system. Finally, I suspect that I for one could probably take a look at a "blank" map and make some pretty good guesses as to the location of opposing Civs, especially on normal sized maps. (Of course, I could make similar guesses with extensive "Black Clicking," but the reliability would be significantly lower.)
All said, it is not without reason that revealing the map has always been considered one the Major cheats in Civ 2.
Tanstaafl said:
For example? I am unaware of anything beyond differentiating land from sea.
How about 'Revealing the map, outside of normal game play, in any fashion is not allowed at any point of the game.'
Got my vote.
I realize that there are many ways to "cheat", to discover more information using gimmicks like loading the game in the map editor. Some things, like using the patterns of specials and huts, are just good observation of what is revealed and inherent in the game itself.
I pledge to play by the rules as posted here.
I realize that there are many ways to "cheat", to discover more information using gimmicks like loading the game in the map editor. Some things, like using the patterns of specials and huts, are just good observation of what is revealed and inherent in the game itself.
I pledge to play by the rules as posted here.
Swapping maps via diplomacy is not the same as viewing the whole map in MapEditor or cheat mode. The maps you get from other players are only partially complete, and they are a "snapshot" that shows current cities and units, but the units soon move away (the AI seems to have a "move everything that is not I/M/R-ing" flag set right after a map swap) and new cities will be founded that do not show. Same with the Apollo map - a one-time "snapshot" of all land and current cities. Early on in a game, when making caravan deliveries can significantly improve your civ's gold and beakers, map swaps are only partially useful because the AI have explored little of the terrain around them. It is still useful to know which direction you need to go, and what type of terrain is around their cities, but you need to find the way there yourself in most cases.
Black-clicking has three hindrances: it is very tedious, it only indicates whether a black tile is land or water, and in the case where a large continent gets the number 1 it tells you almost nothing. On the opposing side, it is harder to prove someone has mis-used black-clicking compared to someone who plans their development looking at a full copy of the map. Such issues as locations of river basins, concentrations of grasslands, and types of special terrains can give a significant benefit if the player knows they are there and heads directly for them.
For me, black-clicking is useful to get an idea whether there could be a decent One City Challenge site on the starting island, and whether a Trireme can make it across a potential strait. But it has its limitations, and I can think back to one notable GOTM where I thought DoM had removed Greenland from the world map to keep us from getting to North America - it turned out Greenland had gotten #1 and was thus invisible to black-clicking. Revealing the full map or looking at the game map in MapEditor gives away too much information for it to be a legal option for normal games. That said, I have played several Scenarios where the map was fully revealed as part of the initial conditions, but those are different stories.
Black-clicking has three hindrances: it is very tedious, it only indicates whether a black tile is land or water, and in the case where a large continent gets the number 1 it tells you almost nothing. On the opposing side, it is harder to prove someone has mis-used black-clicking compared to someone who plans their development looking at a full copy of the map. Such issues as locations of river basins, concentrations of grasslands, and types of special terrains can give a significant benefit if the player knows they are there and heads directly for them.
For me, black-clicking is useful to get an idea whether there could be a decent One City Challenge site on the starting island, and whether a Trireme can make it across a potential strait. But it has its limitations, and I can think back to one notable GOTM where I thought DoM had removed Greenland from the world map to keep us from getting to North America - it turned out Greenland had gotten #1 and was thus invisible to black-clicking. Revealing the full map or looking at the game map in MapEditor gives away too much information for it to be a legal option for normal games. That said, I have played several Scenarios where the map was fully revealed as part of the initial conditions, but those are different stories.
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