GOTM105 Spoiler

[Peaster]

Eco-Game at -1000 right now. As I said before I'm trying a complete different strategy as Peaster (actually the first I really learned when I started with deity 7 years ago) and stopped expanding when I was around 10 cities (I really dislike spamming cities and profit from the black citizen-bug, it's not meant to be there...).

Did you finish this ? With only 10 cities, how will you build a big eco ? I needed lots of cities to support a ship chain (especially hard in Republic).

I had a few RL problems after prev post, and just rush-finished my game. I played on to 300AD, to beef up my cities and build 14 WoWs. Trade gradually rose to about 3000g per turn plus taxes. My Hides supply dried up, so I needed numerous small domestic deliveries to compensate.

 

[Marlos]

Peaster, Hexer, Ali:
How do you guys finish so fast??? Do you use IPRB and caravans (trade cash and beakers) to speed things up? Can you answer this question concisely here, or do I need to read more elsewhere?

 

[Peaster]

Marlos: Mainly, you need fast growth, approx 6 cities by 2000BC, for example. To do that, let your cities make only settlers, and each settler makes a new city within 3-4 turns. To learn more, read DaveV's guide to ICS. You do not have to cover the map with cities [pure ICS], but you do need to know how to grow fast.

 

[Hexer]

I went for Mona -> Trade -> Poly, meanwhile built 12-15 cities. When Trade came in, rushbuilt MPE (with caras). Traded techs, got maps. (At this point decide if there is a need for Lighthouse.) When Poly was researched, switched to 70% tax and built tiremes/elephants in a 1:2 ratio, conquered the first two civs with the first wave (choose them, some don't have bronze working at this time), and the last two civs with the second wave + leftovers of the first one.

As far as I remember, I never ever had caras involved in a EC game, except wonder building of course.

@Peastor: I won't finish the eco game for the reasons I posted in the gotm106 thread. But I guess you are right. I didn't really thought about how to support a shipchain with only 12 cities

 

[Marlos]

I went for Mona -> Trade -> Poly, meanwhile built 12-15 cities. When Trade came in, rushbuilt MPE (with caras). Traded techs, got maps. (At this point decide if there is a need for Lighthouse.) When Poly was researched, switched to 70% tax and built tiremes/elephants in a 1:2 ratio, conquered the first two civs with the first wave (choose them, some don't have bronze working at this time), and the last two civs with the second wave + leftovers of the first one.

Very interesting, to say the least. It appears that I need to break out of my usual pattern. Namely, I would go for Bronze Working first to start Colossus production for SSC. Then to Monarchy, then to Philosophy (free tech), then to Monotheism for crusaders and Mike's. By the time I've gotten this far, you've got the game won!

In all of the games that I've ever played, I think that I may have built MPE once or twice. I never saw the offensive potential of it, until now. The key is the maps! Once you have those, and you know where the others are, the rest is planning and executing. Uh, executing your enemies, that is.

Looks like I have a new strategy for GOTM 107! Thank you for the tips, guys!

 

[Peaster]

As far as I remember, I never ever had caras involved in a EC game, except wonder building of course.

For me, this has been one of the hardest questions about EC strategy. I did not recommend vans in the EC guide, because no EC players used them [much] back in 2004. Also, Grigor convinced me that they are a waste of time on small easy maps [eg gotm 105].

But Slowthinker showed us the power of gold+outposts in an old gotm [41? 43?] and at Poly in approx 2004-5. I've experimented with vans in many gotms since then. IMO they work best on large cluttered maps [eg "The Guantlet"]. Part of the idea is that you can send out settlers and vans before reseaching polytheism. One outpost city + 1000g can make 4 elephants pretty fast, and with more flexibilty than sending the ellies directly [what if you need a 5th ellie or dips for city walls... ?]. Also, you can use the extra gold to drive up your score, if you care.

Something you might try for fun.

Congrats on a nice EC game.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

Peaster, Hexer, Ali:
How do you guys finish so fast???

Me finishing fast?! I wish. You must have mistaken me with someone else. I do not have a single green star in hall of fame. I am always amazed by how fast Peaster and others finish.

It appears that I need to break out of my usual pattern. Namely, I would go for Bronze Working first to start Colossus production for SSC. Then to Monarchy, then to Philosophy (free tech), then to Monotheism for crusaders and Mike's. By the time I've gotten this far, you've got the game won!

I used to go for Colossus or Hanging Gardens as the first wonder too till I discovered the value of Marco. While maps are great and most important for a conquest game, the tech trading is immensely beneficial too. And if you are playing OCC, alliances and the gifts that come after wards are also essential.

 

[grigor]

To Peaster and Hexer:

IMHO the issue was always deciding how long the game was likely to last. I always have had difficulty with the period between 700BC and 100BC, because that seems to be where trade starts to matter, as Slow Thinker taught us. But earlier than that vans don't pay enough to justify their time and shield cost. So, if you think you are going to be able to take everybody out by 7-800 BC, go vanless, especially if the map is a contiguous landmass.

BTW, the earliest I ever got Marco Polo was about 1400, but that seemed to be about 300 years too early to be able to do anything with it. I found best results with getting Marco at 1100BC, which is where Peaster has been getting it in the past 20 GOTM or so. That time is compatible with an 800BC finish.

 

[Hexer]

You won't be able to send out your first troops before 1000BC anyways, so MP around -1500 (especially -1600...) seems to be a little off, yes. It might help you with the advances though.

 

[Peaster]

To Peaster and Hexer:
IMHO the issue was always deciding how long the game was likely to last.

I completely agree.

So, if you think you are going to be able to take everybody out by 7-800 BC, go vanless, especially if the map is a contiguous landmass.

I agree with this, too, but might even say "by 1AD". I don't recall any EC games based on vans that finished much sooner than that, at Emp/Diety. Slowthinker's game finished at approx 1AD, but it was not played under GOTM rules. Van rehoming was allowed, which gave his plan a huge advantage. For most GOTMs, EC players aiming for the green star can probably omit vans.

For completeness, two other great players could be mentioned:

solo [author of the Early Landing Guide] experimented with very lean EC, not even including MPE. This is not a totally bad idea, since you can omit Trade, etc,
but it is tricky to get mapmaking/poytheism and find the AI quickly. I see it as a risky gamble, and have not pursued it much, but maybe Grigor has.

TimTheEnchanter [a founder of the GOTMs ?]: He reported sending one van along with each early flotilla. This didn't generate a big economy, but the trade bonuses apparently paid for bribes, sort of a compromise plan. I tried this once or twice, and felt it worked OK, but not great. Gold from tribute and taxes is usually enough for bribes, and the van takes boat space away from ellies. Tim didn't post many details, so there may be more to the idea, and it might be worth more tries.

 

[Magic_gorter]

TimTheEnchanter [a founder of the GOTMs ?]: He reported sending one van along with each early flotilla. This didn't generate a big economy, but the trade bonuses apparently paid for bribes, sort of a compromise plan. I tried this once or twice, and felt it worked OK, but not great. Gold from tribute and taxes is usually enough for bribes, and the van takes boat space away from ellies. Tim didn't post many details, so there may be more to the idea, and it might be worth more tries.

I tried this technique when I and Peaster played some warrior only conquest games. Because warriors are cheap you don't need a lot of money to raise a big army. Perhaps I try this method with one of the next GOTM's to find out how it goes when buying ellies or crusaders. However a conquest before 1 AD I never managed at the higher levels but this 220 AD was my best IIRC.

 

[grigor]

Solo is a truly great player, who along with Samson really fleshed out the theory of the game in too many ways to enumerate. But his decision to bypass MPE was based on ignorance of its power, as he himself later admitted. I did a lot of lean EC games myself, but I wasn't as good a player as solo, and my results were not as spectacular. With MPE my intuition improved a lot

 

[Peaster]

... but I wasn't as good a player as solo, and my results were not as spectacular.

In EC games ? Debatable! I admired solo for his boldness with new ideas, and he was obviously a great landing player. He played in a few EC comparison games at Poly, partly to help me write the EC guide in 04 [did you also play in those?]. As I recall, his results were pretty good, but mixed, maybe because he was always experimenting.
He never settled into a system that he really liked and then perfected it. I think you did, and your GOTM Green Stars probably outshine solo's EC results.