I have just seen the start game pic (kind late huh?) and i'm surprised than no one said we should move the settler south in the jungle. You would still be on a river, get one bonus grassland, and keep the space for the second town on the grass near the sea.
Gotm17-Carthage Pregame Discussion
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Phillip_martin
Make it so.
Originally posted by SirPleb
I wonder if we're scaring people off from going for culture shot or making it more tempting?
Nnnnooo nottt attt aall <nervously laughs>.
For no particular reason I was thinking that one could start trying for the faster 100k and swap to the 20k if one is found to be hemmed in (carfully keeping wonders in one city of course).
SirPleb
Shaken, not stirred.
I've wondered about that. It might work though it isn't a perfect compromise. I've practiced 100K culture a bit and it seems clear that what one wants for the fastest path to it is a fast buildout. Early culture (temples etc) is relatively unimportant - what matters more is to expand like crazy, and to buy culture improvements in corrupt towns as quickly as possible. Some early culture is nice of course but faster expansion is more important. On this archipelago map, with SO much water, fast expansion could be a challenge!
I haven't practiced fast 20K culture but I think it would be important to have a high production town starting on wonders fairly early. And, the best early wonders for it seem to be Colossus, Great Library, Oracle, Hanging Gardens, Pyramids. They're the most culture for their shield cost. But none of these seem much use toward a 100K culture buildup. (For example, Great Library seems the best of all for 20K culture - it gets 6 culture/turn for 400 shields. But those 400 shields could build 5 libraries instead for 15 culture/turn, a bit better for a 100K goal.) Lighthouse is likely to be very important on this particular map for 100K culture (and most other wins) but is low bang for the buck toward a 20K win.
On this map with 13 rivals, even at Regent level I think it will be very challenging to get many early wonders in a single city. It will probably be hard or impossible to get leaders early on to help the process. (Archipelago with SO much water
) And even though the AIs are Regent level, there are many of them, and the early wonders each is building will cascade when someone (who might that be? 
) completes something...And still, having said all that, it might be a good way to hedge the bet, starting out by going for both at once...
@Yndy, that sounds like a good plan to. But I really hate moving my settler if I can get by with the starting position.
@SirPleb, with that many civs the wonder cascades will be horrible! When one finishes I think you'll see a hord of switching and finnishing others. This also leads to the AI (and perhaps the player to) loosing a lot of shields.
Back to looking at the pictures, there is that one picture with all the galleys escaping from an island volcano errupting. This is just a coincident right? Not something that is going to happend? A hint of things to come. If that might be the case then I'll be moving my settler far far away from the mountains.
@SirPleb, with that many civs the wonder cascades will be horrible! When one finishes I think you'll see a hord of switching and finnishing others. This also leads to the AI (and perhaps the player to) loosing a lot of shields.
Back to looking at the pictures, there is that one picture with all the galleys escaping from an island volcano errupting. This is just a coincident right? Not something that is going to happend? A hint of things to come. If that might be the case then I'll be moving my settler far far away from the mountains.
Originally posted by cracker
"a few days in advance" as in giving you the announcement on the 26th and then not releasing the save file until the 1st of March.
//singing
Just one more day to go...[dance]
//Moonsinger really wants to ask if Cracker means London time or US Central time, but she remembers something about "the job" and decides to keep a low profile.
IronKnight
Master of Disaster
I have not played much archipelago. Under normal conditions, what can you expect from the other islands that you build on as far as corruption goes? How close will they have to be to your capitol to get more than 1 shield production? Temples will help your production...right??? Thanks!
Temples helping production? Since when. It only helps in keeping people happy. Which doesn't necessarily make them more productive. Code of Law and the police might lower production if you are within' resonable distance to the capital (or Forbidden palace).
Think the anti-corruption sphere eminating from a capital (or FP) extends some squares (don't recall the number now). Beyond that the city is a worker colony. A gulag!
The main problem will be that you need a port on every island to connect your luxeries to your empire grid so all your citizens become happy. That is not a funny build if you are producing one shield per turn. The it is time to use the iron fist & whip to be despotic.
Think the anti-corruption sphere eminating from a capital (or FP) extends some squares (don't recall the number now). Beyond that the city is a worker colony. A gulag!
The main problem will be that you need a port on every island to connect your luxeries to your empire grid so all your citizens become happy. That is not a funny build if you are producing one shield per turn. The it is time to use the iron fist & whip to be despotic.
In addition to that, happy people would trigger the WLTLD which helps production (sorry, I don't remember the exact figure).
Jurimax
Duke of Flanders
What I was thinking about was the following, what's gonna be the story when you join those eqWorkers to one of your cities? They're supposed to be 'invisible', what will that 'invisibility' do to the productivity of those workers? Will they be immune to corruption?
I know, some crazy thoughts, but with the release of the save game so close, I think you can forgive me my 'crazy' thoughts.
Greetings Jurimax
I know, some crazy thoughts, but with the release of the save game so close, I think you can forgive me my 'crazy' thoughts.
Greetings Jurimax
pterrok
Warlord
If you move your worker direction 1 onto the mountain, who knows what it'll reveal? There seems to be a river on the squares on the other side; it may be that moving the settler direction 4 into that forest (or jungle?) may pick up cows or other goodies and it too may even be on a coast!
Cracker seems to have deliberately made it so that you can play conseratively by plopping down where you are--which is not a bad place--or aggressively by moving your worker 9 or 3 and then moving your settler 6. Or as Yndy suggests, moving the settler 2. But with an Industrious worker, moving him 1 to reveal the Western side of the mountains to gain that map intelligence sure seems to be the first thing to do...
I was jonesin' for a fix, so I made some archipelago games approximating the given stats; with this many opponents--who all stay alive most of the game--turns take a LONG time when going for a 20K culture win since they're always at war with SOMEONE in the later stages. Trying to expand and get another kind of win, I remember how much I HATE building all these navies to shuttle troops around! But Cracker implied it was NOT going to be what we expected--and I believe him.
Is it possible that Cracker's Barbarians can transport troops on ships? I know that I would have a heck of a time if I saw a barb galley and never knew if it was gonna unload some warriors on my shore! He's said they're like a different civ (civ 0)--which they need to be either so that all the versions act the same or that regular civIII barbs would act like those in PTW...
Cracker seems to have deliberately made it so that you can play conseratively by plopping down where you are--which is not a bad place--or aggressively by moving your worker 9 or 3 and then moving your settler 6. Or as Yndy suggests, moving the settler 2. But with an Industrious worker, moving him 1 to reveal the Western side of the mountains to gain that map intelligence sure seems to be the first thing to do...
I was jonesin' for a fix, so I made some archipelago games approximating the given stats; with this many opponents--who all stay alive most of the game--turns take a LONG time when going for a 20K culture win since they're always at war with SOMEONE in the later stages. Trying to expand and get another kind of win, I remember how much I HATE building all these navies to shuttle troops around! But Cracker implied it was NOT going to be what we expected--and I believe him.
Is it possible that Cracker's Barbarians can transport troops on ships? I know that I would have a heck of a time if I saw a barb galley and never knew if it was gonna unload some warriors on my shore! He's said they're like a different civ (civ 0)--which they need to be either so that all the versions act the same or that regular civIII barbs would act like those in PTW...
Yes WLTLD (or we love the leader day) would help production. But if you are only producing 1 shield and the rest is corruption, what would that do? Give you 2 shields and double corruption?
on with the thread ..
That would be so cool. So the barbs would be like Vikings. Except they would have warriors and horsemen instead of berserkers.
This is my last post into this thread as I have already downloaded the save (Edit: Did not . See my post below) and plan to open it today. After much thought I decided not to explore with the worker (will build a warrior in 5 turns) and move my settler south (2).
Build order: warrior, warrior, settler or granary prebuild pending exploration results.
Worker action: Move to bonus grassland SE (3), Road, Mine, move to the other bonus grasslands and road them and later mine them.
Science: Max on Pottery, then Writing
Good luck to you all.
Build order: warrior, warrior, settler or granary prebuild pending exploration results.
Worker action: Move to bonus grassland SE (3), Road, Mine, move to the other bonus grasslands and road them and later mine them.
Science: Max on Pottery, then Writing
Good luck to you all.
Singularity
Infinite Density
Downloaded the save???
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That's a gambit I'll say, I'm starting to think about moving the settler east to the jungle after I've scouted the mountain in the SE with the worker. The thought behind that is the odds the island stretches furter west than east - thus ensuring zero corruption in a ring of cities around my capitol.
Then again I believe that delta 2 tiles SE of start point indicates that we're on the southend of the island, thus making a move to NW more logical - but I don't really want go into terrain that seems to be nothing but jungles and mountains. In worst case I can do a palace jump if everything looks bleak corruption wise.
--------
That's a gambit I'll say, I'm starting to think about moving the settler east to the jungle after I've scouted the mountain in the SE with the worker. The thought behind that is the odds the island stretches furter west than east - thus ensuring zero corruption in a ring of cities around my capitol.
Then again I believe that delta 2 tiles SE of start point indicates that we're on the southend of the island, thus making a move to NW more logical - but I don't really want go into terrain that seems to be nothing but jungles and mountains. In worst case I can do a palace jump if everything looks bleak corruption wise.
pilferman
Steve McQueen as Bullitt
How is it that you already have the highly anticipated save file? Did I miss something? I suspect that you have some 'Civ'ic duty which allows for this. The peons, myself included, will have to wait until Cracker decides to release the game before we can play. I suppose that it is for the best, since I have an exam early this afternoon. The last thing I need is another distraction, much like this forum...
cracker
Gil Favor's Sidekick
Just so a riot does not ensue: the save file is not available yet for any of the versions. You final setup pack just includes the link that will lead you to the save after you make sure you have the game pieces installed and ready to go.
Still time for one more warm up lap on the track.
You may wish to glance at the two threads in the succession games forum where some of you peers have played a test game start with neoCarthage just to test out some of the features. These games are bothe titled with "QSC-C2xxxxxxxxx" as their title. The starting positions and concepts are not identical to the Gotm17 game but some of the issues that you will encounter are discussed in those opening move sequences.
Also just a little clarification in the games relating to the eqWorkers: In the PTW version of the game all the workers are "Workers" that perform all the tasks and will generally cost 115-130 shields to buy. In the Civ3 games, you have the eqWorker unit to equalize most of the early worker trade costs. If you are sensitive to stating your version type at the begiing of any future posts, this will help to sort out these minor differences.
Good luck to all players when the green flag waves.
Still time for one more warm up lap on the track.
You may wish to glance at the two threads in the succession games forum where some of you peers have played a test game start with neoCarthage just to test out some of the features. These games are bothe titled with "QSC-C2xxxxxxxxx" as their title. The starting positions and concepts are not identical to the Gotm17 game but some of the issues that you will encounter are discussed in those opening move sequences.
Also just a little clarification in the games relating to the eqWorkers: In the PTW version of the game all the workers are "Workers" that perform all the tasks and will generally cost 115-130 shields to buy. In the Civ3 games, you have the eqWorker unit to equalize most of the early worker trade costs. If you are sensitive to stating your version type at the begiing of any future posts, this will help to sort out these minor differences.
Good luck to all players when the green flag waves.
haegint
Chieftain
This is what I wanted to post earlier:
-----------------
Somebody earlier mentioned Yndy's QSC Excel file from GOTM 15 Russia (either was it on this board or another one). I took a look and indeed, his file is very simple, easy and useful in my opinion.
I'm attaching my slightly modified version of Yndy's log file which hopefully you will find even more handy. If you think it's useful, please feel free to employ it. Just DISREGARD all info that is currently entered. It's junk. I just left it for flavor sort of. I also left Yndy's original file as a 2nd worksheet in the file (to see it, click bottom tabs).
I took off the "BC" extension from the year, simply to save space as it's obvious that it's BC. I did away with the dropdown lists (I have my Excel Autofill-enabled, so if you would type "wo..." then Excel completes it to Worker). I set the table on Arial Narrow font again to save space. I basically changed only 2 columns:
Eliminated one column where to set the gold distribution. My reasoning was that you can only set Science and Happiness anyway, so the third number (middle number) is always just the residue to 100%, is it not?
My only real contribution, so to say, is a proposition to changing Yndy's Location columns: I put only one column now and name it Numpad. There I intend to just type in the keys I'll be hitting on the Numpad. So a single "4" would be "move that unit from its present location one tile straight to the West". A double-digit "36" would mean to go one tile to SE and another one straight East, like for a Scout for example. Moving a one-move unit on a road would be a triple-digit number, and so on...
One could also come up with a list of abbreviations for the various units: Worker = WK, Spearman = SM or SPM, etc... In the absence of an auto-tracking utility like moonsinger is proposing (great idea!!), maybe we find common ground for logging our early progresses. Really just thinking....
More on-topic, I really look forward to my first real GOTM. Last night I did my private QSC with the GOTM 16 Rome, just to see what I come up with and compare it to the official results due out soon. I'm really clueless whether it was any good, but I guess it will not be... only met the Japanese, and they would not trade me comms with America nor Germany nor any other techs.... ah well...
Sorry if I wrote too much on such a small affair. And many thanks to Yndy once more for the original log file!
-----------------
Somebody earlier mentioned Yndy's QSC Excel file from GOTM 15 Russia (either was it on this board or another one). I took a look and indeed, his file is very simple, easy and useful in my opinion.
I'm attaching my slightly modified version of Yndy's log file which hopefully you will find even more handy. If you think it's useful, please feel free to employ it. Just DISREGARD all info that is currently entered. It's junk. I just left it for flavor sort of. I also left Yndy's original file as a 2nd worksheet in the file (to see it, click bottom tabs).
I took off the "BC" extension from the year, simply to save space as it's obvious that it's BC. I did away with the dropdown lists (I have my Excel Autofill-enabled, so if you would type "wo..." then Excel completes it to Worker). I set the table on Arial Narrow font again to save space. I basically changed only 2 columns:
Eliminated one column where to set the gold distribution. My reasoning was that you can only set Science and Happiness anyway, so the third number (middle number) is always just the residue to 100%, is it not?
My only real contribution, so to say, is a proposition to changing Yndy's Location columns: I put only one column now and name it Numpad. There I intend to just type in the keys I'll be hitting on the Numpad. So a single "4" would be "move that unit from its present location one tile straight to the West". A double-digit "36" would mean to go one tile to SE and another one straight East, like for a Scout for example. Moving a one-move unit on a road would be a triple-digit number, and so on...
One could also come up with a list of abbreviations for the various units: Worker = WK, Spearman = SM or SPM, etc... In the absence of an auto-tracking utility like moonsinger is proposing (great idea!!), maybe we find common ground for logging our early progresses. Really just thinking....
More on-topic, I really look forward to my first real GOTM. Last night I did my private QSC with the GOTM 16 Rome, just to see what I come up with and compare it to the official results due out soon. I'm really clueless whether it was any good, but I guess it will not be... only met the Japanese, and they would not trade me comms with America nor Germany nor any other techs.... ah well...
Sorry if I wrote too much on such a small affair. And many thanks to Yndy once more for the original log file!
IronKnight
Master of Disaster
Thanks for the info. I could have sworn that I had recently read a post (maybe by SirPleb) that tested the effect of temples & cathedrals vs. courthouses & police stations. From what I remember, wasn't there less corruption, i.e. more shields, with adding temples & cathedrals??? If anybody remembers this I would appreciate reading it again.
Phantom Lord
live by the sword
[nervous trembling]This is going to be my first GOTM game, reading posts about "wasting a worker move to have a look" tells me I'm gonna be glad if I don't end up with the worst score here. Anyway, I'm targetting 100k cultural around 1850 AD, any better result would be a big surprise and I never had more than 16k in a single city before reaching 100k and I truly have no idea how to get 20k on archipelago. [/nervous trembling]
Anyway, I'm targetting 100k cultural around 1850 AD, any better result would be a big surprise and I never had more than 16k in a single city before reaching 100k and I truly have no idea how to get 20k on archipelago. [/nervous trembling]Arrr, maybe heading toward Monarchy too fast won't be the best thing for a 100k victory. On the one hand, the numidian infantry comes early, and building any at all in Despotism risks an early GA. On the other hand, it might be faster to build temples and libraries if they're rushed despotically. What was the final word on joining workers? As long as they aren't starving when you add 'em, go ahead, and rush what ya want? Or is that cheating? I never rush much anyway, but this might be a situation where it can pay off- within the rules of course.
And I have to disagree with Sir Pleb's calculations that the GL at 400 shields and 6 culture would count for 5 libraries at 15 culture. Thing is, you can build the libraries simultaneously, rush 'em or buy 'em when you can. The GL by the end of the game can be worth 2000+ culture, 2% of the goal, nothing to sneeze at. And then you can rush a library in that city. My point is the GL better utilizes the culture potential of what might be limited land area, and so it'd be good to grab. A lot of workers are going to be necessary too, to get trade of resources rolling...
And I have to disagree with Sir Pleb's calculations that the GL at 400 shields and 6 culture would count for 5 libraries at 15 culture. Thing is, you can build the libraries simultaneously, rush 'em or buy 'em when you can. The GL by the end of the game can be worth 2000+ culture, 2% of the goal, nothing to sneeze at. And then you can rush a library in that city. My point is the GL better utilizes the culture potential of what might be limited land area, and so it'd be good to grab. A lot of workers are going to be necessary too, to get trade of resources rolling...
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