Be very careful with this. In my last regent arch game I used the pyramids to prebuild the lighthouse and got screwed bigtime. I was all alone on my island so had an extremely slow tech pace. Some other civ built the pyramids when I was 7 turns from map making even though I had beelined to it. I had nothing to switch production to. The palace was 3 turns from completion if I switched to that. Ended up wasting a ton of shields and getting the lighthouse much later than I should have.
Gotm17-Carthage Pregame Discussion
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Be very careful with this. In my last regent arch game I used the pyramids to prebuild the lighthouse and got screwed bigtime. I was all alone on my island so had an extremely slow tech pace. Some other civ built the pyramids when I was 7 turns from map making even though I had beelined to it. I had nothing to switch production to. The palace was 3 turns from completion if I switched to that. Ended up wasting a ton of shields and getting the lighthouse much later than I should have.
Singularity
Infinite Density
I'm allmost 100% sure that both are wrong, but I'm not certain that Cracker would like me to unveil the truth about what they are.
My best guess is that there may well be a few slaves that can be captured scattered around the map.
cracker
Gil Favor's Sidekick
As a matter of practice, I will not always intervene in these pregame discussions to clear up speculation about map features. Philosophically, giving you that chance to discuss what you feel the impact of different options may be is probably the greatest benefit of the pregame discussion. Even if the speculation is wrong, haveing you theorize and discuss how the strategy im plications will effect play is of great benefit.
Also, this post may not exclude other optional elements that could be included in the game just because I do not focus on them.
The Bonus Workers issue is designed to give you positive reinforcement and incentive to discuss to whole issue of early worker trading costs and how the AI uses early workers. This issue is a significant upgrade/change that can effect the play of some players as we more to the "all games being equivalent to PTW" concept.
You will notice that in the "Scope of the Game" setup discussion we try to place some separation between the settings on the map that are controlled by the Difficulty level and then the separate issue of unit bonuses even though the out-of-the-box has these lumped together just beacuse that is the only simple way to implement the games when they are randomly generator without a sentient map controller.
In this game all the AI civs bein the game with at least one additional free eqWorker and there are several reasons for this other than just wild caveat emptor.
The game is still a Regent level game in all map setup aspects.
So there are really two pieces to this pregame discussion issue:
"What is the eqWorker?" and
"How do you think giving the AI rivals extra, free, eqWorkers at the start effect play?"
Also, this post may not exclude other optional elements that could be included in the game just because I do not focus on them.
The Bonus Workers issue is designed to give you positive reinforcement and incentive to discuss to whole issue of early worker trading costs and how the AI uses early workers. This issue is a significant upgrade/change that can effect the play of some players as we more to the "all games being equivalent to PTW" concept.
You will notice that in the "Scope of the Game" setup discussion we try to place some separation between the settings on the map that are controlled by the Difficulty level and then the separate issue of unit bonuses even though the out-of-the-box has these lumped together just beacuse that is the only simple way to implement the games when they are randomly generator without a sentient map controller.
In this game all the AI civs bein the game with at least one additional free eqWorker and there are several reasons for this other than just wild caveat emptor.
The game is still a Regent level game in all map setup aspects.
So there are really two pieces to this pregame discussion issue:
"What is the eqWorker?" and
"How do you think giving the AI rivals extra, free, eqWorkers at the start effect play?"
Singularity
Infinite Density
I assumpted, like col mentioned, that they where barbaric slaves scattered throughout the islands, both on the civ controlled, and uninhabited islands. If so, that should give an incentament to further rush to the oceans to capture as many of the slaves before the AI found them.
Giving the AI bonus workers from start would also lead to several benefits if you look on how a classic regent game spans out:
- More likely to trade workers for your tech, and buying them off the AI.
- Improve the horrible rate the AI manages his infrastructure in the early games. I often have to bring with me workers on an invasion at regent difficulty just to make roads for my 1 move troops. This of course also has a flipside as he can move his defences around with greater ease.
By looking at the terrain at the start I can see a great need for early workers to work on the mountain/jungle terrain. This will most likely lead to a bigger difference from players with better infrastucture vs more cities/population in the early game.
One extra worker may not sound like much. But 100% higher infrastructure rate in the first 20 rounds or so will have a significant impact on the AI score compared to normal regent setup.
BTW, for PTW players there is the extra threat from barbarians who prefer to pillage than to suicide on your city.
Giving the AI bonus workers from start would also lead to several benefits if you look on how a classic regent game spans out:
- More likely to trade workers for your tech, and buying them off the AI.
- Improve the horrible rate the AI manages his infrastructure in the early games. I often have to bring with me workers on an invasion at regent difficulty just to make roads for my 1 move troops. This of course also has a flipside as he can move his defences around with greater ease.
By looking at the terrain at the start I can see a great need for early workers to work on the mountain/jungle terrain. This will most likely lead to a bigger difference from players with better infrastucture vs more cities/population in the early game.
One extra worker may not sound like much. But 100% higher infrastructure rate in the first 20 rounds or so will have a significant impact on the AI score compared to normal regent setup.
BTW, for PTW players there is the extra threat from barbarians who prefer to pillage than to suicide on your city.
There are barbarian workers awaiting for us to capture?
That's so cool! However, my guess is that they will be guarded by their Gods.
PattonTwo
Warlord
I was thinking...
Could you switch to Palace, then send the city into disorder? Move all units out, put everyone to work? If that didn't work (city too small), perhaps you could revolt. I don't know if you can revolt without another gov. to change to, but it might be possible.
RE buying workers off the AI. I thought I read they would be 4 times as expensive.
Next time, could the world map be posted with the starting picture? It would be nice to see and discuss in advance if we seem to be to the south, north or whatever.
Of course it is fresh water - now go jump in it! 
I just found the download pack for the new graphics - way at the bottom of the GOTM17 announcement. Only 360K (squid sold seperately). Too bad we can't try it out first.
Pardon my editor ignorance, but is there a way to 'peek' at the GOTM save file and gain all kinds of inappropriate knowledge?
Also, what is this talk about discouraging milking? That would be a good thing IMHO, but a very difficult thing to do.
I just found the download pack for the new graphics - way at the bottom of the GOTM17 announcement. Only 360K (squid sold seperately). Too bad we can't try it out first.
Pardon my editor ignorance, but is there a way to 'peek' at the GOTM save file and gain all kinds of inappropriate knowledge?
Also, what is this talk about discouraging milking? That would be a good thing IMHO, but a very difficult thing to do.
SirPleb
Shaken, not stirred.
Click here for a thread with info about the new scoring system.
I think of the new scoring not as discouraging milking but rather as encouraging going for other victory conditions. With the new scoring system a well-played game with any victory condition will be rewarded in its final score. We'll see a lot more high scores as a result - early victories were previously penalized by the game's built in scoring. They'll be able to compete in score now.
One thing which the new scoring will definitely discourage is mindless milking, i.e. just hitting shift-Enter to get to 2050. Playing that way will result in a lower score than taking victory as soon as possible.
It will still be possible to get the highest final score with a milked game but it will also be possible to get there with any of the early victory conditions. The competition for the top scores will be hotter I think.
I'll still often want to milk since it seems the ultimate challenge and the longest game (also a reason to not do it at times!) but I'll also be tempted to go for other wins.
I'm wondering about being contrarian in GOTM17, perhaps going for culture against my own tendencies and Carthage's. Never tried for that on an archipelago, might be fun...
Go on - SirPleb. Go for that green ambulance...... 
Coincidentally, I'm going to try for the culture victory too.
Btw, after about 4 hours of MOOing last night, I'm happy to be back here.PS: MOO = Master of Orion III and it's definitely has no relation to milking.
pilferman
Steve McQueen as Bullitt
I'm doing a lot of planning for my early-game movement sequences. Much more, in fact, than I would ever consider otherwise. As soon as I start the game all of this planning will most likely go straight out the window. 
The presumed "ocean" to the east and northeast (representing the Mediterranean) will probably be a lake, as I said before. That will throw a few poor souls off the mark slightly. The water in the SW? That's probably the real ocean. Perhaps this starting location was designed to resemble (with the blacked-out squares) historical carthage, but in reality resembles a randomly generated archipelago. Hehehe...I can't wait!:flamedevi
The presumed "ocean" to the east and northeast (representing the Mediterranean) will probably be a lake, as I said before. That will throw a few poor souls off the mark slightly. The water in the SW? That's probably the real ocean. Perhaps this starting location was designed to resemble (with the blacked-out squares) historical carthage, but in reality resembles a randomly generated archipelago. Hehehe...I can't wait!:flamedevi
Arrr, a maritime adventure. Jiminy Christmas! Just when I thought CivIII was running out of relevant permutations, Cracker goes and tweaks it some more. Nice job.
I guess my start position depends on which victory condition I choose to go for. Moving SE will actually give the capital the most long-term production, as you get to keep all the mountains, unless that square 2 tiles east is a coastal hill or mountain, which actually it looks like it might be. Move 1 tile east then, get the worker started on a mine right off, just gamble that it's the better move and forget exploring. A warrior or two, a settler, get the pyramids going for the culture. City two, get a few warriors, a settler (join the worker if necessary), get it started on the colossus. So bronze working is first, then mapmaking, then monarchy for the food and production bonus. I'm assuming there'll be another Civ around to trade for the other techs off my research path. Maybe city 3 will be capable of producing the lighthouse, I could just prebuild it from the start, have a 3 city civ with 4 warriors and everyone building wonders for awhile. If it works, that's a wrap, the other civs on Regent will be hapless. It just might work, they can't build wonders particularly fast, and who knows, maybe I'll get a free settler or bonus tech. I'm concerned about the barbarian activity, if they pillage 150 shields I'll get grouchy. How bad could they be though? And the other civs, whatever, this is regent, 4 warriors will be sufficient defense. They don't start with any defensive units, I might just be able to take one out with warriors. Once the wonders are built it'll depend on what the map looks like. If we're on a penninsula as Sir Pleb speculated, a palace jump north might be worthwhile if the northern landmass is large enough. For a 100,000 culture victory anyway. Might just have to settle for a miniature empire and go for 20,000 in the capital, take a more defensive posture (but it is regent), just float a few boats and trade like crazy, leave 'em alone until Chivalry or later. Um, Cracker, is there any distinction in the results between 20,000 and 100,000 culture winners? Maybe I should already know this, but I forgot. 100,000 is fun, it's a quasi-milk run, you have to save your money, sieze territory and rush libraries and whatnot. With the small land area and the regent AI it might be the ultimate challenge. But we'll see, this whole thing could get scrapped if there are surprises.
Also, what if there are volcanoes, and they flatten the mountains down to hills or grass or something? Or screw up the tiles around them? Could affect things...
I guess my start position depends on which victory condition I choose to go for. Moving SE will actually give the capital the most long-term production, as you get to keep all the mountains, unless that square 2 tiles east is a coastal hill or mountain, which actually it looks like it might be. Move 1 tile east then, get the worker started on a mine right off, just gamble that it's the better move and forget exploring. A warrior or two, a settler, get the pyramids going for the culture. City two, get a few warriors, a settler (join the worker if necessary), get it started on the colossus. So bronze working is first, then mapmaking, then monarchy for the food and production bonus. I'm assuming there'll be another Civ around to trade for the other techs off my research path. Maybe city 3 will be capable of producing the lighthouse, I could just prebuild it from the start, have a 3 city civ with 4 warriors and everyone building wonders for awhile. If it works, that's a wrap, the other civs on Regent will be hapless. It just might work, they can't build wonders particularly fast, and who knows, maybe I'll get a free settler or bonus tech. I'm concerned about the barbarian activity, if they pillage 150 shields I'll get grouchy. How bad could they be though? And the other civs, whatever, this is regent, 4 warriors will be sufficient defense. They don't start with any defensive units, I might just be able to take one out with warriors. Once the wonders are built it'll depend on what the map looks like. If we're on a penninsula as Sir Pleb speculated, a palace jump north might be worthwhile if the northern landmass is large enough. For a 100,000 culture victory anyway. Might just have to settle for a miniature empire and go for 20,000 in the capital, take a more defensive posture (but it is regent), just float a few boats and trade like crazy, leave 'em alone until Chivalry or later. Um, Cracker, is there any distinction in the results between 20,000 and 100,000 culture winners? Maybe I should already know this, but I forgot. 100,000 is fun, it's a quasi-milk run, you have to save your money, sieze territory and rush libraries and whatnot. With the small land area and the regent AI it might be the ultimate challenge. But we'll see, this whole thing could get scrapped if there are surprises.
Also, what if there are volcanoes, and they flatten the mountains down to hills or grass or something? Or screw up the tiles around them? Could affect things...
SirPleb
Shaken, not stirred.
I wonder if we're scaring people off from going for culture shot or making it more tempting?Originally posted by Moonsinger Coincidentally, I'm going to try for the culture victory too.
Is anyone else mulling over the victory to go for based on what we know so far? I've been thinking:
Space: Tough to get science really moving at Regent. But with 13 rivals there might be a couple of strong scientific ones who could be nurtured to help. The other Civs' eqWorkers might boost them a bit faster than normal Regent.
Diplomatic: Same considerations as space. Probably will be a good trading map, not too hard to get great relations. Could go for either space or diplomatic early on and decide between them later.
Conquest: Archipelago with 13 rivals - will take a while to hack and slash through that!
Domination: Much depends on the exact shape of the land as it unfolds. There's not a bad chance this can be done quicker than conquest. Might be possible to go for either conquest or domination and not decide between them till a fair way into the game.
Culture 20K: Regent and industrious Civ so this one should be fairly straightforward. But it wouldn't require seeing much of the world, could be played quietly from home. And on archipelago might be very hard to get a few early leaders and thus hard to get this victory early. And it must be decided very early in the game.
Culture 100K: Fairly easy at Regent on a good sized map but Carthage is not religious or industrious and archipelago might make it hard to aquire the needed land quickly, so it may be tough to get a great date for this. Ought to decide whether going for this one fairly early in the game.
Histograph ("milked"): Always challenging and pretty much demands exploring the entire world.
About the eqWorker: For many victory conditions I think that adding a worker to each AI will probably help us a bit at Regent level. A slightly stronger start for the AIs means more chance for commerce, for rapid research, and for better developed land to conquer. Conquest and domination might be hindered a bit, I'm not sure.
I haven't been able to guess the answer to "what is the eqWorker" at all. I'm assuming it is some kind of worker and will help the AI as such. And that we'll have a chance as good Carthaganians to adopt these slaves as our own
But just what are they? And what is the "eq" for? Equine workers? (One horsepower, look like centaurs.) Equal pay workers? (Demand 2 gold/turn pay.) Equivocating workers? (Can't decide whether to irrigate or mine.) Enough, I give up 
After all these times, I still couldn't figure out what you mean by that.
What exactly is your definition of "few days in advance"?
cracker
Gil Favor's Sidekick
Oops, "and" should be "a" and then it would read "a few days in advance" as in giving you the announcement on the 26th and then not releasing the save file until the 1st of March.
You better watch it or we're gonna give you a job.
You better watch it or we're gonna give you a job.
Jurimax
Duke of Flanders
I haven't decided which strategy I'll pursue, but I don't think I'll go culture, space or diplomatic. As previously stated, culture will probably take a long long time; space and diplo require modern techs and this is regent... result probably also long long time.
I might go for conquest/domination and as SirPleb mentioned a choice between the two could be made later in the game.
I hope there'll be another civ nearby, a bit of early warmongering can save the day on regent. Afterwards the Lighthouse, and lots of galleys.
A lot will of course depend on the initial exploration of the starting area.
Greetings Jurimax.
I might go for conquest/domination and as SirPleb mentioned a choice between the two could be made later in the game.
I hope there'll be another civ nearby, a bit of early warmongering can save the day on regent. Afterwards the Lighthouse, and lots of galleys.
A lot will of course depend on the initial exploration of the starting area.
Greetings Jurimax.
Luithien
Chieftain
Yeah my thinking on the colossus is that it does help alot with early science research on regent level, due to doubled trade in that city..
GL yeah not really that important in reagent i'll admit that..
My thinking here is having the GL would allow drop off science in favour of taxes and luxuries. Taxes to fill my coffers with gold, luxuries to lower the corruption on the islands and to keep production as high as possible.. with the GL you would at least be able to stay as advanced as the top two civs.
The biggest advantage this would bring is the wealth, improvments and units you would be able to generate even in your distant cities... Having your cities celebrating "we love the king" makes a huge differnce to your corruption...
(maybe)
It will be intresting to see if this actually works - Status
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