Gotm19-Ottomans Pre-Game Discussion

[Ambiorix]

Okay, here are my thoughts. Any advice, corrections or additions from more enlightened players are more than welcome. MORE than welcome...

I agree that there is little or no reason to move the settler. Moving to the SW or so would get two mountains out of the city radius, but that's only two tiles and would only matter very very late in the game - or even never at all. Furthermore, it's a small world (literally), and plenty of competition, so chances are that a neighbour is somewhere closeby. So my first action will be to settle where I start. If the city radius doesn't reveal anything spectacular I probably send my worker south and then the starter-warrior north and then east (moving over high terrain to see further).

My short-term strategy will be to get a settler out asap. Since it's a small map I'm not going to bother about building a granary first - just get the settler asap. To do that I could time a settler by the time Istanbul reaches size 3, but that may not be so straightforward. Another option would be to let Istanbul grow to size 4 and then crank out a settler by cutting a forest and pop-rushing. So, more in detail : start cutting the forest 5 turns before Istanbul reaches size 4 (or 5, if you wish), make sure that whatever Istanbul is building is finished the turn before the forest is cut, and then switch to settler. When the 10 bonus shields come in you still need 20 shields for the settler, which can be pop-rushed at the expense of 1 citizen.
Right, that's when we reach size 4, but what in the mean time ?
My worker will first road and mine the bonus grassland and then move NE to road and irrigate a plain tile (irrigating a plain is one turn faster than mining a grassland, with the same result). That is, if the forest in the SE doesn't contain deer or other bonuses of course, but I'm not counting on it.

@ Moonsinger : I don't understand why you'll let the worker mine before road. What will you be building in Istanbul first ? If it's a warrior a mine-before-road won't bring out the warrior earlier, while a road-before-mine yields an extra gold piece. Uhm...right ? (road : 2 turns, mine : 3 turns).

Concerning research : the new QSC-scoring system is meant to let us do selective research. With this setup (small map, 7 rivals) we'll probably have a couple of early contacts, letting us trade basic techs. So with bw and masonry already in the pocket, I'm going to reasearch iron working first. Since this is quite expensive, I'm going to do it at a leasurly 40 turns. This will yield a large amount of cash that can either be used for trading with the AI or a mass-upgrade to swordsmen. Actually, I'm expecting a lot of this approach in tech-research, since the AI always goes for the cheapest tech (if I'm not mistaken) they might occupy themselves with the basic reasearches, enhancing the chances of being able to trade iron working by the time I get it.

@ Jack Merchant : actually, you could get pottery in 15 turns or eventually even 13 turns or so, if you go full-out on that one, but I'm betting a beer that you can trade for it sooner than that.


With all the above in mind, production in Istanbul will start off with a couple of warriors (3 or 4) before building a settler. The warriors will explore the surrounding terrain, and by the time our initial worker has improved the first two tiles, he'll know in what direction to continue working, so that his work also benefits the second settlement. Istanbul may then continue with building another worker perhaps.
With two cities well-developed, I may start thinking about getting libraries and start doing research faster than 40 turns, although, at this level, I might get more research from my warriors than my scientists. Hmm...

I have absolutely no idea what kind of victory I'll be going for. Too many unknowns yet. Actually, I think I'm gonna go for not loosing. Seems ambitious enough for me.

Oh, almost forgot : I tried to re-create the starting condition to do some experiments. I found this very useful to estimate the impact of worker actions and build-choices, so I'm attaching my scenario-file here (crated with PTW 1.14f, European edition). If you use it : I only focused on the island in the top-left corner.
PLEASE NOTE THAT THIS FILE IS JUST MY FABRICATION, AND THAT THE REAL GAME MAY (AND PROBABLY WILL) TURN OUT COMPLETELY DIFFERENT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[hbdragon88]

I am so going to get beat...I can't take emperor level too well (based on gtom16). And my second try level games (a second gotm w/ same level)haven't done so well. gotm15 I had a slow expansion, monarch game. in gotm18 (monarchy) I also had a slow start. Then I lost interest in it - after [mysterious civ] delcared war on me.

I will undoubtly finish the qsc19 but I am not sure about gotm19. The qsc is the most imporant aspect I need to work on and focusing on that for now allows me to study more in-depth on the beginning game.

 

[cracker]

Originally posted by hbdragon88
...I can't take emperor level too well (based on gtom16).

Just be patient and pay very close attention to the discussion that you read here in this thread and in the past several QSC strategy discussions.

You are very close to achieving a breakthough here in terms of your play skill and the resulting level of enjoyment that you will get from the game.

A can guarantee you that all the answers are right in front of you with the experiences that you have gained since Gotm16. All you have to do is be patient and be very precise and surgical about the choices that you make with regards to overall strategy plus the deatiled management decisions that you have to make each turn for workers, moves, and citizen assignments.

While it is impossible to memorize a build and move sequence that will always work, the decision techniques that let you command the game are fairly consistent from one game to the next.

 

[jack merchant]

Originally posted by Ambiorix

@ Jack Merchant : actually, you could get pottery in 15 turns or eventually even 13 turns or so, if you go full-out on that one, but I'm betting a beer that you can trade for it sooner than that.

I totally forgot about the effects of map size on research - I've never played a small map before. (thanks to Shillen for pointing that out, too).
With 8 expansionist civs out of 24 civs, odds are that at least two of the 7 preset opponents are expansionist. Also, I think that 8 civs total is more than is normal for a small map - so it could indeed get rather crowded. Maybe I'll have to rethink getting pottery first - wouldn't want to lose that bet
Whatever happens, I'll turn up research to max from the start anyway, as I don't want to run the risk of finding out that this is an island map and fall massively behind.

 

[zagnut]

I think you are right about moving the warrior and worker, Ribbanah. I don't see how we can resist with no bonus resources available at this point.

LKendter has a good point about getting an early start with a small map, but what do you do if a visit to the mountain shows wheat or a cow nearby. Isn't the benefit of getting that resource better than building the city at the start position in order not to waste a turn?

Thanks, Shillen, for pointing out that all of those plains are not bonus squares.

Cracker says to stay flexible. Therefore, I will. I will send the warrior to the best mountain depending on our start position on the map. Then, depending on what she sees, I will probably move the worker south to the bonus grassland square. That should give me enough information to then decide whether to move my settler, or build at the start location.

 

[DaveMcW]

The start looks so discouraging that I will assume there is a better location, hopefully with a 4-food bonus resource which would justify moving my settler up to 2 squares.

Since the start has been equalized so much already, I doubt one of the mountains will show a better city location because then half the people would miss it. And those rivers to the west and south look very promising.

Therefore I will move the warrior west to start.
If the warrior fails to see a better site I will move the worker south.
Then if no better land is found, I will build my city at the start location.

 

[LKendter]

@DaveMcW -
Well I can already tell how you blow me out of the water at the skill of play. I never even thought of Cracker's balancing and the mountains not revealing anything. The only tile common is the mountain we can already see. Cracker wouldn't turn the game into a 50/50 guess to start.

That means my first move will be determined solely on the map location of our civ. I don't even have a guess there, as the game could be modeled after Europe only, Eastern Europe and Asia, or Eastern Europe, Asia and parts of Africa as the basis. My guess in the third, but we shall see.

========================

When thinking about the game, consider the announcement on the Main Page
This month's game gives you free unit graphics upgrades to both PTW and Civ3v1.29 as well as adding two additional playable civilizations to Civ3v1.29 to raise the standard civilization count to 20 possible choices.

Read the last 3 words - 20 possible choices
These new civs will show up this game. It fits the "mystery" theme. We have no idea what this civs attribute will be unless we meet them at 3900BC and can guess from their starting techs.

========================

With the civ tournament idle, and a "small map", this game will get a lot more attention per turn then my last. That one was rushed worry about time restrains, just to have me finish mid-month.

I just hope this doesn't become a repeat of GOTM#17 in which I scored far below my average. My play suffers the most when I am presented with new and unique situations. It is very interesting from a learning curve, but horrible for me in a competition.

========================

I just hope the one comment about Cracker making the games progessivle harder doesn't hold true. If so, I am scared to death what we will get when the next deity game finally shows up.

 

[KindLE]

I can't tell for sure, even with a zoom, but there may be a cow or a wheat two squares on the SE grassland tile. But it may also just be a bonus shield peeking it's head under the fog. But then again, since I'm going to move the worker S one tile before founding anyway, I'll find out soon enough. I'll probably move warrior N, worker S. Maybe worker E to take advantage of the mountain. Depending on our location on the world map, I may want to go to the other side of the river for the defense bonus.

 

[alamo]

To summarize: We are the Ottomans on a small map, geography, landmass and climate unknown with 7 opponents. On start we get 1 conscript warrior and +25g to even out the product of close goody huts. Most people say their 1st move will be: scout with warrior to mountain, move worker S, and found Istanbul on the starting spot. Others say move warrior W first, which I like.

Edit: There was a minor problem in the PTW readme - the first path (for the art) was for vanilla civ, and the second was for ptw. I wound up adding the new art to both units folders and had no problem with the test game.

 

[hotrod0823]

Read the last 3 words - 20 possible choices
These new civs will show up this game. It fits the "mystery" theme. We have no idea what this civs attribute will be unless we meet them at 3900BC and can guess from their starting techs.

I figured out at least 1 of the other civs but won't share it for it is spoiler if you don't do some investigating.

Then again maybe I am wrong but I don't think so.

 

[jack merchant]

Originally posted by LKendter

========================

When thinking about the game, consider the announcement on the Main Page
This month's game gives you free unit graphics upgrades to both PTW and Civ3v1.29 as well as adding two additional playable civilizations to Civ3v1.29 to raise the standard civilization count to 20 possible choices.

Read the last 3 words - 20 possible choices
These new civs will show up this game. It fits the "mystery" theme. We have no idea what this civs attribute will be unless we meet them at 3900BC and can guess from their starting techs.

I took this to mean that two other PTW civs will be in the game for those who are still playing 1.29 - as no other civs have apparently been added to the PTW version.
Likely candidates to be included are Arabia (geographically close), Mongolia (I think I remember reading about Tamerlane conquering the Turkish tribes for a short while, but my memory may be way off there) or Spain, who jousted for control of the Mediterranean waters with the Ottomans for a long time until the decisive Spanish (Habsburg) naval victory at Lepanto in 1571 AD.

 

[Moonsinger]

Originally posted by Ambiorix
@ Moonsinger : I don't understand why you'll let the worker mine before road. What will you be building in Istanbul first ? If it's a warrior a mine-before-road won't bring out the warrior earlier, while a road-before-mine yields an extra gold piece. Uhm...right ? (road : 2 turns, mine : 3 turns).

You are absolutely right about that. Thanks for pointing that out. By building road before mine, I could get an extra gold piece. For some strange reason, I always have a habit of mining or irrigating before roading.

 

[Bolan Longpants]

I will move my warrior north or west (added: make that east!)(depending on the location on the World map). If no food bonus is visible I will move the worker south and establish the capitol. I will definately move my settler to another position if I spot a bonus food resource in the north. I prefer bonus food iso loosing one or two turns before estabishing the capitol.

 

[Ronald]

You get to see the most new tiles when you are moving a unit to the mountain in the East. Therefore, I would move my warrior there. (it still depends a bit where we are located on the world map if I do it)
If this does not reaveal anything promising, I then will move my worker to the west (at worst first best tile improvement delayed by two turns)
If there is still no better site in view, I'm still thinking whether I should build my capitol right away or take a gamble and move my settler to the SW. (grassland with mines is equal to plains with irrigation under despotism)
If there is nothing, I lost a move, if it reveals something it might be a good move.

In general, I'm probably building warrior, warrior, settler and then depending on the surroundings either granary for fast expansion or barracks for veteran warriors or archers.

Ronald

 

[Moonsinger]

Sorry, I didn't realize there is a free warrior at 4000BC. In the case, like some of you have mentioned before, it may be a good idea to move the warrior to the North mountain then the worker to the East mountain to look for food bonus before settling.

 

[Ronald]

Originally posted by Moonsinger
Sorry, I didn't realize there is a free warrior at 4000BC. In the case, like some of you have mentioned before, it may be a good idea to move the warrior to the North mountain then the worker to the East mountain to look for food bonus before settling.

Hi Moonsinger,
We are not absolutely sure to have this warrior. It's our guess coming from the pregame info of cracker.

Why would you move your warrior North and not East? I thought that keeping at hte river for our settler was out of question.

Ronald

 

[Moonsinger]

Originally posted by Ronald
Why would you move your warrior North and not East? I thought that keeping at hte river for our settler was out of question.

Because, the river started from the mountain on the East. If there is cow, wheat, or fish, it likely to be found down stream (if Cracker has anything to do with it). Therefore, by moving the settler NW or West, we would still be following the river (in this case, we are heading down stream).

 

[hotrod0823]

Originally posted by hotrod0823


As far as my speculation I think it will be a deity game with a custom map that focuses on survival. Barb intensity will be strong, I expect to be see 3.2.1 units running around.

Maybe we will get to use MDI's this time around. Perhaps there will be some new PTW civs to play against. Not just the Keltoi or NeoCarthage. .

I think I got a couple things right. Moving the settler away from the mountains may be the best option but I think you need to have a food bonus to make it worthwhile. Getting a few less moutains in the city couldn't hurt but this game will get going fast and moving the city without gaining a bonus may just put it 1 turn behind the rest.

 

[Bamspeedy]

Originally posted by Moonsinger


You are absolutely right about that. Thanks for pointing that out. By building road before mine, I could get an extra gold piece. For some strange reason, I always have a habit of mining or irrigating before roading.

Yes, industrious does through things off a little bit.

If you start with a bonus grassland tile and the worker starts one turn after the city is founded, and you are building a 10 shield item, then it is better to road first. You actually get +3 gold. (Both improvements will be done after 5 turns, so if you road first, you get +3 gold, and if you mine first you get +2 shields). But for a 10 shield unit to start, the +2 shields gets wasted. However, if you move the settler, so that the worker has started a tile improvement the same turn the city is founded (or before), then you will get the first warrior faster by mining first.

If you move the worker onto a mountain or something, but still settle at the starting location, then you won't get the first warrior (or second) out any sooner by mining first.

For non-industrious workers, I almost always mine or irrigate first at the start, but then later on I will road first for hooking up cities, and movement of units. But I also watch the timing of when the improvements will be done, to decide if I need those extra mines/food or not (only when I have very few cities, it is too much of a headache when you have more cities).

 

[Moonsinger]

Thanks for the explaination, Bamspeedy.

------

The Goody Hut benefits for you as the Human player included one hut that was essential in the starting position that yielded an additional "skilled warrior" according to the in-game dialog. To keep the games consistent between players, all players begin the game with the benefits that would have been obtained from two additional huts that yielded 25 additional gold and nothing of value in the first 8 to 15 turns of play. Note that pre-assignment of these benefits is not meant to imply that it will or will not be important for you to explore your surroundings on the map. These will still be decisions that you will need to make in order to succeed at this game.

After I carefully read what Cracker said again, I think it would be best for me to found the capital city at the starting location. Because there are only two possibilities of getting that extra skilled warrior:

• 1. The near by hut will be opened automatically by Palace cultural expansion. In this case, we will get that skilled warrior in about 10 turns later.
  
  2. The near by hut will be openned by our own warrior which take 5 turns to build and a couple more turn of exploring (assuming that he is heading in the right direction).