Gotm20-Spain Pregame Discussion

[Stone Wolf]

Originally posted by denyd
If I remember correctly, no matter what type of tile you found a city on, all the food/shields are the same.

So if it turns out that the square S-SE is an incense/desert square, founding a town there would get the default food/shields (yet no bonus gold), right??

Well, not quite. A city tile has a set food production of two no matter what terrain or resource it has. It also has a minimum shield production of one, though it could be higher if the tile normally has an unworked production of two or more shields.

I don't remember how gold is figured out, though I think each city has a minimum gold production of one or two (including the one from roads). The capital has a min of 4 (I think) though you'll still lose one under despotism. You do get more if you build on a high gold tile. Building on gems, for example, gives the full gems bonus plus the road bonus.

 

[DaviddesJ]

Originally posted by denyd
If I remember correctly, no matter what type of tile you found a city on, all the food/shields are the same.

Not quite. Food in the center is always 2. Shields are the actual shields for the terrain, plus 1 if city or 2 for metro, with a minimum of 1. So a desert town or floodplains town both have 2 food/1 shield, but the desert city will have 2 food/2 shields while the floodplains city would only have 2 food/1 shield.

So if it turns out that the square S-SE is an incense/desert square, founding a town there would get the default food/shields (yet no bonus gold), right??

The capital has a minimum of 4 commerce (minus 1 for despotism), so unless you have a really big bonus resource (like gold or gems), the resource doesn't affect commerce in the center.

I was wondering if anyone would suggest building on the incense. But I think it's clearly not worth 2 turns of moving, plus moving away from the grasslands and some of the floodplains. Bringing more deserts into the city radius isn't exactly a thrilling prospect.

 

[DaviddesJ]

Originally posted by Boyd
Production & Food: the analysis of others and of Gotm8 is very useful in our starting position in terms of mining plains first and accessing the floodplains later.
/B]

I don't see the point in mining the plains when there's a forest right there for you to work if you want. Plus there might be a bonus grassland to the east, which strictly dominates the plains.

The mined plains would be on the river, but so is the forest to the W/SW. (Another disadvantage of building the city on the hill is that you move out of range of the forest with river access---but that may not be significant if you find bonus grasslands.)

 

[SirPleb]

Some thoughts about victory conditions:

Diplomatic
I think this will be the easiest goal (not that any will be easy )
Ten Deity AIs at the standard map size research rate will drive tech to Fission at a respectable pace even without our help, so any Diplomatic victory should be at a date early enough to get a good score.
Depending on the size of our starting land mass, it could work well for a good score to take out all local Civs, build up that land for happiness, and work toward the UN vote.
A Diplomatic goal could also be the way to shoot for the highest score. Especially if there are some scientific AIs - the research rate could be made very fast indeed.
The main things for the Diplomatic victory of course are:
* Be caught up enough in tech to get Fission before a rival builds the UN.
* Have a prebuild or a leader ready for building the UN.
* Ensure that most of the remaining Civs like you more than they like each other. (And therefore it makes sense to try to completely take out any Civ which you start taking out.)
* [Edit, added this:] An important part of keeping their favor it to avoid breaking many deals and avoid razing many cities of any Civ.

Culture 100K
I think this one is likely to be a bit difficult. It works best when rapid expansion is possible and that's unlikely at Deity. It also depends on whether our starting land mass is large enough for all the towns required. And if not combined with some conquest, Culture 100K can be made harder at Deity by AIs pushing the 50K culture mark.

Domination
Hard to guess, the difficulty of this will of course be affected by geography. E.g. whether our starting land mass is large enough in itself to trigger Domination.

Space
This can be difficult at Deity unless you've gained a clear upper hand over the remaining Civs. If you are not ahead in production and tech this victory can slip away.

Conquest
I suspect this will be a difficult goal on this map because Cracker has designated it as the Predator class goal. (One more reason for us to guess that the map will have land masses separated by ocean - I doubt Cracker would have designated Conquest on a Pangaea map. It even makes me wonder if we may encounter something something special which could make conquest of the last rival more difficult.)

Culture 20K
A difficult goal at Deity, especially if you want a high score. It will be hard to build early wonders and hard to get early leaders, both of which are very desirable for this goal.

Histographic
This would be a milked game for sure at Deity. Hard to reach 2050 without an AI winning unless you have them subdued. So the considerations for it are same as for Conquest I think, except that the score of a late Conquest might be increased by good milking.

I'm not sure yet which goal I'll go for, am considering Diplomatic (shooting for score) and Conquest (to be a Predator )

 

[DaveMcW]

Spaceship should score higher than diplomatic if you get most of the modern techs in 4 turns, especially if none of the scientific civs cough up Fission.

 

[samildanach]

I have been reading all the great advice on this thread avidly and have decided to wade in with my, probably, not so great advice.
I have competed in the last three Gotms. However, Gotm 20 will be my first QSC and consequently I have been thinking more about my opening sequence of moves. In particular whether or not to found my city at the start location.
There are lots of good reasons why the city should founded at a site other than the start location which have already been pointed out by the great players on this thread.
But there is a good reason for founding at the start position in that it may help to maximise the QSC score in the event that the minimum research gambit is used.
For example, I found my city at the start location I then choose to research writing and literature at minimum research ( 40 turns each ) . In practice games at diety the trading leverage gained by acquiring the second tech (in this case literature) has enabled me to gain most of and sometimes all of the techs required for the middleages. The reason this relates to the QSC is that 1000BC is
the termination date for the QSC and is also 80 turns into the game according to my ,possibly, wonky arithmetic. 80 turns being the time it takes to research the two techs.
If I had chosen to delay founding my first city then I would not get the second tech until after 1000BC if using the min research gambit and consequently not have the tech trading opportuinities in time to boost my QSC score.
Whether this is a valid enough reason to influence the choice of your starting city location ... well I dont know thats up to you.

 

[cracker]

Here is a minimap of your starting position in the Spanish world of Gotm20:

here are links to minimaps of the last to games for anyone who has a burning urge to compare:

Gotm19-Ottomans minimap
Gotm18-Celts minimap

 

[ltcoljt]

 

[Peanut]

So ... a position slightly to the north of the equator.

Perhaps some thick African jungle beyond the Sahara whose edge we can just glimpse to the south, maybe the promise of the rich grasslands and forests of Southern Europe to the West (that hint of green could mean many things), and the dry Iberian plains to the north and east stretching to the rich fishing grounds of the temperate north Atlantic whose beaches we can only just discern if we crank up the zoom ratio and squint.

And lots of room there for the New World just waiting to be visited by the bold and adventurous (i.e. suicidal) Galleys under the leadership of Grand Admiral Peanut.

Or on the other hand, maybe not. But hopefully no tundra for a few tiles north anyway ...

And probably fierce diety class opponents on all sides of us. And all of them just drooling in anticipation of snacking on a tasty Peanut settling right there in the middle of them.

... but we Spanish Peanuts will be tough nuts to crack ... hopefully ... I think ... Si el Dios lo quiere

 

[Dynamic]

It's almost the center of world! May be we are placed on the left side of continent and there are other 1 or 2 continets to the west from us.

 

[Stone Wolf]

I'm guessing we're at the Western coast of our continent, and that there is a New World type continent W of us. No real reason for that, other than the fact that we have at least some coastline nearby and looking at a world map.

 

[Hurricane]

The ordinary randomly generated maps in Civ have jungles and desert along the equator, so my guess is that the grasslands are to be found due north. Now I'm even more convinced of settling on the hill.

 

[Sailorstick]

I think I'll settle on the hill to the north east. After my shocking GOTM19 I'll need all the defensive bonuses I can get I'll send the worker first to see if it's suitable, if not then I'll mine the bugger.

 

[Ambiorix]

Originally posted by cracker
Here is a minimap of your starting position in the Spanish world of Gotm20:

here are links to minimaps of the last to games for anyone who has a burning urge to compare:

Gotm19-Ottomans minimap
Gotm18-Celts minimap

Uhm... maybe it's just me, but I wonder why Cracker is also adding last months' starting positions. Is this invitation to compare them just a mockery of the tea leaf readers (no offense guys ), or can we actually deduct something from it ? You tell me - one thing's for sure : I'm not expecting the Spanish inquisition... (if you're saying 'hugh?' now, read the prediction thread ).

 

[ControlFreak]

Originally posted by samildanach
I have been reading all the great advice on this thread avidly and have decided to wade in with my, probably, not so great advice.
I have competed in the last three Gotms. However, Gotm 20 will be my first QSC and consequently I have been thinking more about my opening sequence of moves. In particular whether or not to found my city at the start location.
There are lots of good reasons why the city should founded at a site other than the start location which have already been pointed out by the great players on this thread.
But there is a good reason for founding at the start position in that it may help to maximise the QSC score in the event that the minimum research gambit is used.
For example, I found my city at the start location I then choose to research writing and literature at minimum research ( 40 turns each ) . In practice games at diety the trading leverage gained by acquiring the second tech (in this case literature) has enabled me to gain most of and sometimes all of the techs required for the middleages. The reason this relates to the QSC is that 1000BC is
the termination date for the QSC and is also 80 turns into the game according to my ,possibly, wonky arithmetic. 80 turns being the time it takes to research the two techs.
If I had chosen to delay founding my first city then I would not get the second tech until after 1000BC if using the min research gambit and consequently not have the tech trading opportuinities in time to boost my QSC score.
Whether this is a valid enough reason to influence the choice of your starting city location ... well I dont know thats up to you.

Excellent point! I know I'm going for minimum science gambit, and I already stated I probably wouldn't move the settler for other reasons. You've just convinced me.

Thank you Sir Pleb for your assessment of victories (not that I think any are possible for me). I plan to eventually go the diplomatic route. I figure, I'll already be sucking up to not get killed so they should be happy with me.

 

[DaviddesJ]

A warning to the min-science players (maybe this is well known): if you want to get Writing in 2150BC (turn 40) with minimum research, you have to be sure to open the science advisor and select Writing, on your first turn. If you just leave no research selection, then the computer will prompt you for a research target between your first and second turns, but that turn (3950BC) then won't count toward the 40-turn total; in 3950BC you'll still have 40 turns to go.

This seems like just a bug to me, but anyway, it's not a problem as long as you know about it.

 

[ControlFreak]

DaviddesJ@

Thanks for the reminder. I know to set research as soon as a city is founded but I forget 50% of the time.

Deity is going to involve a lot of things before pressing the spacebar. Need to check happiness. Need to check Diplomacy. With this start, we'll need to check we're not wasting food/MM-shields every turn practically. Whew! I hope I can finish by the end of this short month.

 

[Dislak]

Cracker-

Thanks for the mini-map. In fact, i've blown it up 1200% and I can make out wheat to the south and incense to the north!!

 

[ltcoljt]

Originally posted by DaviddesJ
A warning to the min-science players (maybe this is well known): if you want to get Writing in 2150BC (turn 40) with minimum research, you have to be sure to open the science advisor and select Writing, on your first turn. If you just leave no research selection, then the computer will prompt you for a research target between your first and second turns, but that turn (3950BC) then won't count toward the 40-turn total; in 3950BC you'll still have 40 turns to go.

This seems like just a bug to me, but anyway, it's not a problem as long as you know about it.

The min research writing gambit is in doubt this game. I have run 3 games up to writing. Twice the French beat me to it. Once it did not matter as I had an extra contact to parlay to tech parity. But only 2 of 3 games worked out.

As for wonders, the combination of civs I am playing with are cascading like crazy. I do not expect to get a shot at the library.

I am playing with these predicted Civs: France, Germany, Vikings, Celts, Carthage, Arabia, English and Rome.

I am not playing with but expect to see: Iroquios, Americans, and Aztecs.

 

[Moonsinger]

I had a weird dream about this game last night. I saw the Egyptian Empire in just about 7 tiles NE of my starting position, the Japanese Empire was just a few square to the East and Persia was on the South and South West. My Spanish land was so tiny that I had to place most of my cities 2 tiles apart. It was really a nightmare! Wave after wave of Egyptian War Chariots, Persian Immortals, and Japanese swordmans were coming toward me from all direction...then I waked up.