Gotm20-Spain Pregame Discussion

[cracker]

This month will be a little bit of a challenge for us in the pregame discussion because we have the option for players to Play in one of the three different intensity Classes will playing in the same game.

The CONQUEST class game has additional starting bonuses that should not become the topic of discussion here if at all possible. Try keep the discussion of those CONQUEST bonuses over in teh specific discussion area where you can focus on how you might use those bonuses to get you on pace with the main strategic challenges that will be discussed here.

It is not possible for you to begin play at this time but you can strategize together about what you think you would do in the main strategic challenges of game.

This process should allow all the players to look over the setup instructions for the game and discuss what they think these instructions mean without the risk of any real spoiler information. Since none of the players will be able to start the game, essentially all you will have available to support your discussion will be past GOTM results and strategy articles.

The rules for participation in this discussion thread are simple:

1) read the game announcement and get yourself set up to play the game when the save game is released to you.

2) barbarian features in this game have been announced and encountered in previous GOTM games so you may freely discuss anything you feel that would be appropriate for pre-game planning.

3) Once you download the starting save game file and open it to begin play you may no longer participate in this discussion thread.

I plan to leave this thread open to support pregame discussion for any players who have not yet opened the starting save game file but if we have any players who violate this rule the discussion will be closed.

Again there is a great deal going on inside and around this month's game, but at the core of the process the game is simple and fun. Read the instructions and you will have a good time.

Be warned also that the first spoiler discussion will not open until June 5th.

The first spoiler discussion will require you to have full visibility of the world map of your starting continent. You can be certain that one of the conditions for participation in the first spoiler thread will be that you must have gained enough technology knowledge to enter the middle ages even if you may not be allowed to discuss everything you might know up to that point in time.

Here is your link to the

Game Announcement Page for Gotm20-Spain

Good luck in your quest to survive the dark ages and emerge as the enlightened conquerers of the new world.

 

[cracker]

Just an added note about resource graphics files for this game.

Every player has the option to choose from three versions of resource graphics that are 1) plain and almost standard, 2) increased visibility with Letters and Smilie facesm, or 3) enhnced visibility plus letters plus similies plus bonus food/shield/gold blips.

You may choose which versions you use and you may switch as often as you like.

For the PTW players this process is fairly easy.

For the Civ3v1.29 players the process is still easy but you do have to read the instructions and pay attention when switch between the Gotm20 game and other games of Civ3. Civ3v1.29 does not have the ability to switch graphics back and forth automatically for you, so you have to remember to do this manually when you switch games.

I apologize in advance for any inconvenience that this swapping causes, but it seems to be one of the offshoots of other issues that we are trying our best to mitigate so that all players can continue to play the games.

If you have any questions about the resource graphics or any other aspects of the game you may feel free to email me at gotm@civfanatics.net if I can help you in any way.

Buena suerte en el juego,

Cracker de Ortiz Jesus Josephina Santos y Sandoval

 

[TedJackson]

Well that's a pretty sweet start for a commercial civ

Lots of river tiles and lots of food. Seems to be pretty well setup as a worker/settler factory even without a granary. I think I shall settle right there and start roading either S or SE depending on what is revealed. Any nearby bonuses can benefit my 2nd city.

This will be my first attempt at Deity and I'm looking forward to the challenge.


regards

Ted

 

[Ribannah]

Originally posted by cracker
Every player has the option to choose from three versions of resource graphics that are 1) plain and almost standard, 2) increased visibility with Letters and Smilie facesm, or 3) enhnced visibility plus letters plus similies plus bonus food/shield/gold blips.

I would like a version with blips but without the letters / smilies.

 

[Txurce]

Religious missionaries from the Franciscan, Dominican, and Jeronymite orders were given imperial powers of audit and compliance to assure that the conquered peoples where converted into pious Catholics instead of just gratuitously slaughtered by the Conquistadors.

Could this mean that defeated units are captured and "drafted," rather than eliminated? Too radical, right? Or is it a reduction in corruption even greater than the standard commercial trait? Or is it just interesting color commentary from our resident historian?

 

[DaveMcW]

This start has very poor shield production. The flood plains are a mixed blessing, they provide faster growth but no shields and carry the risk of disease. Note that pop rushing is a bad idea, you can convert food to shields without unhappiness by working the forest.

Using the tiles currently visible, it is impossible to make a 4-turn or even 5-turn settler factory. A 5-turn factory would be possible with a wheat, cattle, or bonus grassland in the city radius. A 4-turn factory requires a bonus grassland AND a cattle or flood plain wheat. Building any settler factory requires a painful 60 shield investment in a granary.

Because of the risk of disease, I won't "put all my eggs in one basket" by building an early granary. I might change my mind if a 4-turn settler factory is possible, but I will still build a settler first to give my non-industrious worker time to improve the terrain.

 

[Ronald]

I hope there are some bonus tiles around, so I probably will send my worker to the hill NE. Depending what it shows then I have several options with my settler: stay, move W or move SW.
One or two shield producing tiles will be important for a good balance of food and shields

 

[Smirk]

The top left looks like the river turns east around that hill, or leads to a coast. I'm leaning towards a coast since right beside that hill is some tundra, and rivers don't go thru tundra.

So I assume that puts us at or near the top edge.

I might consider moving the settler northeast to the hill, only because of the hill. A move west or southwest to get some more variety in tiles and more river tiles. Any move south or southeast will likely get more desert tiles in the radius which is no good. I'd guess at this point that we have at least one, on the east side of the river, if we move southwest, we would switch that to the west side.
Its highly likely that there is a wheat flood plain tile nearby if the flood plains go on further south. As a educated guess I'd say its already within range two tiles southeast. Moving the worker to the hill would spot it, if so.

Despite the good food and shields we get just irrigating, the tundra to the north and the desert to the south makes this seem like a pretty poor start. I generally don't like flood plains myself, that is ever since pop-rushing was destroyed so completely.


Edit:

On second look, maybe its my inexperience with the default tile set, it now does simply seem to be more coast with the beach. I use snoopy's terrain which doesn't have such bright beachs, or as extensive either.

 

[Txurce]

Using the tiles currently visible, it is impossible to make a 4-turn or even 5-turn settler factory. A 5-turn factory would be possible with a wheat, cattle, or bonus grassland in the city radius.

I tend to not look under the shadow, but doesn't the WSW tile look like a forest? If so, wouldn't the two forests provide enough extra shields to create a settler factory, in conjunction with the plains and floodplains?

This leads me to a question that I can't answer for myself, and which has helped to keep me from expanding quickly at the start. Four- or five-turn factories require anywhere from three to five pop for optimization - how do you calculate how many citizens are required? Is it simply adding up how to reach 40 wheat and 30 shields as quickly as possible, factoring in growth and improvements? If so, are there any experience-based shortcuts?

 

[gozpel]

Originally posted by Smirk
The top left looks like the river turns east around that hill, or leads to a coast. I'm leaning towards a coast since right beside that hill is some tundra, and rivers don't go thru tundra.

So I assume that puts us at or near the top edge.

I agree it looks like a coast there, but how can you tell there is tundra? It looks like plains to me..

-------------------

cracker informs us on the info page:
"The Goody Hut benefits for you as the Human player included one additional technology that we have assigned to be "The Wheel" as well as 25 additional gold units for your treasury. (Players in the Predator Class game do not begin with these two hut benefits.)"

Hopefully my warriors will make contact soon and with the "right civs". The wheel can be valuable to keep up in the early tech chase.

 

[samildanach]

10 rival civs..... on a standard sized map...... on diety...... we don't
need treasure chests. We need NUKES!!

 

[Ronald]

The spanish UU seems to be difficult to use effectively: An expensive week knight (3.2.2) 70 shields with an actual movement of 6! They come available quite late (navigation). Are they of any use?(destroy roads, capture crucial resources etc.)

What would be best strategies to take advantage of them?

Comments welcome

Ronald

 

[DaveMcW]

Originally posted by Txurce
I tend to not look under the shadow, but doesn't the WSW tile look like a forest? If so, wouldn't the two forests provide enough extra shields to create a settler factory, in conjunction with the plains and floodplains?

This leads me to a question that I can't answer for myself, and which has helped to keep me from expanding quickly at the start. Four- or five-turn factories require anywhere from three to five pop for optimization - how do you calculate how many citizens are required? Is it simply adding up how to reach 40 wheat and 30 shields as quickly as possible, factoring in growth and improvements? If so, are there any experience-based shortcuts?

Yes, I factored in that second forest.

I'm putting together an article on tile management, but it will take a few more days. Here is the chart I used to calculate net shields and food from each tile (minus citizen upkeep) in an attempt to build a 5-turn settler factory. Assuming a granary, we need 10 food for growth and 30 shields for a settler.


Size 5, Turn 1
+2 food, +1 shield (city tile)
+1 food (irrigated flood plains)
+1 food (irrigated flood plains)
+1 food (irrigated flood plains)
+1 shield (irrigated plains)
+1 shield (irrigated plains)
---
+5 food, +3 shields

Size 5, Turn 2
+2 food, +1 shield (city tile)
+1 food (irrigated flood plains)
+1 food (irrigated flood plains)
+1 food (irrigated flood plains)
+1 shield (irrigated plains)
+1 shield (irrigated plains)
+2 shields (forest) <--- growth bonus
---
+5 food, +5 shields

Size 6, Turns 1-2
+2 food, +1 shield (city tile)
+1 food (irrigated flood plains)
+1 food (irrigated flood plains)
+1 food (irrigated flood plains)
+1 shield (irrigated plains)
+2 shields, -1 food (forest)
+2 shields, -1 food (forest)
--
+3 food, +6 shields
+3 food, +6 shields

Size 6, Turn 3
+2 food, +2 shields (city tile)
+1 food (irrigated flood plains)
+1 food (irrigated flood plains)
+1 food (irrigated flood plains)
+1 shield (irrigated plains)
+1 shield (irrigated plains)
+2 shields, -1 food (forest)
+2 shields (forest) <--- growth bonus
---
+4 food, +8 shields


Total: +2 citizens, +28 shields
Not enough!

(Edit: Thanks acivguy for pointing out some silly math errors and the 2-shield city tile at size 7!)

 

[Txurce]

Pillaging shouldn't be underestimated, especially when it's strategic resources that are being uncoupled. This means that a resource within six tiles of the border is within range, even at the start of a war. If the UU can survive one turn in enemy territory, there is virtaully no resource that couldn't be uncoupled, provided the UU started from the appropriate jumping-off point.

There is potentially a lot to be said for a unit that can strike six squares deep, as the AI doesn't consider that a "danger" zone. Never mind workers - most of the interior cities will lack "4" defenders, even if the AI has researched nationalism, as interior upgrades always take a while. In effect, you will be constantly surprising the AI with the UU, and surprise for the AI often means paralysis. A few UUs deep in the AI interior ought to have the heads of its military units spinning.

In addition, if "New World"- type exploration proves to be part of the game, then the UU's ability to zip through the black, even through jungle, could also be huge in terms of securing resources.

 

[Txurce]

Dave, that's really helpful. I'm looking forward to the completion of that article before next Sunday!

 

[Bamspeedy]

The hill to the west looks to be on a peninsula (north of that hill looks like water, not tundra). To the east of the eastern hill looks like possibly grassland (although they may be hills), so I would send my worker to the hill or eastern floodplain to check it out.

 

[Moonsinger]

Well, Since I love building my city on top of the hill, I will definitely move my worker East and move my settler NE; my first city is going to be on top of the NE hill and my second city will be on the West hill as seen in the starting possition. I'm sure the second hill (2 square West) is right next to the sea; therefore, it will be my primary port for building up as many sucide galleys as possible (yes, this will be my first game using the sucide galley tactic). Even though there are 10 rivals, my guess is that at least half of them couldn't communicate with the other half until they discover Navigation; therefore, with the sucide galley tactic, I will be able to control all trade transactions between all the major trading groups (because my guess is that there will be at least two major continents in this game). Personally, I don't think any of us going to have much of a problem surviving until the end of the Middle Age because I have a feeling that Cracker is already making sure that we all have a chance to try out our special UU.

Yndy: Just got back in town and have only a few minute here so I can't really do a summary on that long trading thread yet.

 

[MadScot]

I think I shall move - away.

To get to DaveMcW's size 5 city is going to take 20 turns, if we go all out for population growth. Which means we'd only have about 30 shields accumulated towards a granary, so unless there's a LOT of forests to cut down, that seems bad.

None of the local tiles, even when improved, gives more than net +1 combined food/shields. To accumulate the 60 shields for the granary and 80 food to grow to population 4 is going to take forever. Using the three visible flood plains to give +3, +4 then +5 food is going to take 7 turns from size1-2, 5 from 2-3 and 4 from 3-4. Assume another 4 from 4-5, that's 20 turns. And all we've gathered in shields is the city centre tile 1 per turn, plus one extra from an irrigated plains while growing from 4-5 (I assumed working 3 flood plains and one plains). We still need another 36 or so shields - let's assume there are 3 forests or mined plains available too, and just before growing to size 5 we'll work 3 forests/mines and one flood plain. That's 7 shields per turn, while we stand still on food. That's another 5 or 6 turns. So I don't see how we can get the granary up and running before turn 26, without sacrificing the population. (either whipping OR using the forests/mines earlier). Add in the 6 or so turns to actually build the settler and that's turn 32. And that's all we've got.

Worse, for me, even if we don't build a granary it's still going to take ages to produce a settler - we need a total of 70 food/shield to get to size 3 and built that settler. The best tile we can work is only +1 net. Luckily the centre gives us 3, but that's still going to be in the 20 turn range before we get a settler out.

I'm wondering if this is another stage in cracker's process of turning us into settler nomads. The last few games have rewarded those who moved a tile, usually. Maybe this is the time for the great trek?

I believe I shall move the settler onto the hill - for a good view. I expect to move again, anyway. But if the hill is nice for surrounding tiles (to the NE) it'll be a decent defensive position for when the AI overruns me!

If that reveals nothing I'll move the worker due West. After that, it'll depend....

 

[Checkmate13]

I dont think there is really that much of a driving need to move as the floodplains under despotism act like grasslands in terms of food.

Also I think the need to take in account the presence of 10 civs instead of the normal 8 means a cramped game with early expansion crucial to becoming an established empire.

So no mucking about with moving for me unless I my worker reveals some booty from upon that hill.

But then, after accidently pissing of the carthagians and getting crushed in the last game my advice should be taken with a grain of salt.

 

[SirPleb]

Cracker, a couple of questions if you don't mind divulging more info

1) Will the science rate be the setting for a standard map or a large map? (I'm wondering because although the 5000 tiles means a standard map, the 55% setting means a larger landmass than normal for standard, and the number of rivals is correspondingly large.)

2) Will the Open Class have anything extra at the start from pre-popped huts?