Gotm20-Spain Pregame Discussion

[Stone Wolf]

Originally posted by Leovigild
As this will be my first attempt at anything higher than Regent, and I fully attempt to be stomped, I will be playing in Conquest class. This will give me two workers and two settlers, so I can explore both to the NE AND to the S.

Nyah!

Don't forget that the treasure chests that you start out with can be moved. They are worth 10 shields, so can be replaced in the same times as it would take to build a warrior or worker and don't decrease pop like a settler or a worker would. I'm doing the Conquest version too, and those chests will be my first moves.

Oh, since I'm already posting I might as well put this in. I'm sure I'm wrong, as someone else would have noticed it before me, but does the tile directly N of the starting location look a little odd to anyone else? I've probably just managed to delude myself, but it looks a little like the "plains" pixels have been extended into the "tree" area. Someone tell me I'm imagining it, because it's starting to bug me. I mean, I can only think of one reason for cracker to cover something on that tile up, and that is to hide something that some people would have and others wouldn't. That would make it a horse, which open and conquest players would see but predator class players wouldn't. The problem with this is that cracker could have just taken the picture with the pred class game and not have had to alter the photo.

Somebody just tell me I'm nuts so I can stop staring at that stupid tile.

 

[Leovigild]

Originally posted by Stone Wolf

Don't forget that the treasure chests that you start out with can be moved. They are worth 10 shields, so can be replaced in the same times as it would take to build a warrior or worker and don't decrease pop like a settler or a worker would. I'm doing the Conquest version too, and those chests will be my first moves.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I didn't get the impression that treasure chests could be built. You just get three (amounting to 30 shields production).

What to use them on is a good question. It's tempting to sink them into a granary, but that may be a bad choice. Two will give you a temple in your second city leading to early culture expansion.

Any other ideas?

 

[Stone Wolf]

Ah, I should have explained better. I just meant that they could be used for very early explotation ( starting city locations) instead of a worker or warrior. If you reveal the map with them you can move your workers and settlers where you want them directly. I mentioned cost because if one is lost to another civ it's as easy to replace them as a warrior, and a warrior will take time to build. The chests are there right away. I still wouldn't move them any more than I had to to find the two initial city locations though, as they are completely defenseless.

 

[ltcoljt]

Well, after pondering the opening position for a bit (too long actually) I have decided to move the settler to the adjacent hill and found my capital there. I will work the starting square.

Here are my reasons. I welcome everyone to shoot them down. I might learn something.

1.Moves me away from what I expect is my western coastline, thereby giving me a little more elbow room to place towns to the west. Nothing worse than losing a chunk of your "corruption free zone" to the sea.
2.Gives me a defensible town site due west, on the same side of the river, that might have fish or whale resources that would have probably been blown off if I settled in the original position. This town site will not encroach on my capital's 21-tile perma-radius, and will serve well as a service city for building both land and naval units without the need to build a full range of city improvements there.
3.Saves two worker moves. It's very likely that if I move the worker to the hilltop first, I would end up moving the settler there anyway. Less wasted moves.
4.Increased defensive strength for my capital.
5.Possibility of bringing shielded grassland or bonus resources into my immediate radius to help with the low shield potential of the original starting location.
6.Increases the possibility of turning the capital into a settler factory.

Of course if that body of water is a lake - I blew it. But we pays our money and takes our chances.

I'll have one irrigated river plain tile giving 5 units and then one irrigated flood plain giving 5 units plus the 5 from the town center.

2-1-2
3-0-2
2-1-2 =>7-2-6 (+3 food)

If I get two shielded grassland river tiles to go with that

2-2-2
2-2-2=>11-6-10 (+3 food)

and if I am really lucky a flood plain wheat the southeast for the fifth pop point

+4-0-2=>15-6-12 (+5 food)

and that’s good enough for a four turn settler factory producing right at 50 commerce per 4 turns at zero corruption. Yeah, that's my bet and Mister Cracker had better have set it up like that or I'll pout. I'll pout I will.

"Ode to a soggy cracker"

Move the settler to the hill,
Build an extra worker,
One to mine and one to till,
And neither one a shirker.

Get a potter for your fill,
And use the forest proper,
Dip the cracker in the swill,
And toss it in the hopper.

ltcoljt,
(giving the best pre-game advice for #20, trust me)

Of course I'll be playing in the open class and without the treasure chests to build the granary it will take me 4---ever to get it all set up even if I get me terrain wishes granted.

 

[ltcoljt]

Stone Wolf,

Quick, jump up and run to the door. You have lost your mind and it's riding off on that horse you're imagining.

I don't think horse resources appear on forest tiles. Maybe he painted trees atop those plains.

Cracker may think me unbalanced and ill informed but by God here we have solid evidence that the "peering under the fog" ritual has made a poor simple forum user delusional.

 

[Stone Wolf]

Originally posted by ltcoljt
Stone Wolf,

Quick, jump up and run to the door. You have lost your mind and it's riding off on that horse you're imagining.

I don't think horse resources appear on forest tiles. Maybe he painted trees atop those plains.

Cracker may think me unbalanced and ill informed but by God here we have solid evidence that the "peering under the fog" ritual has made a poor simple forum user delusional.

:jump:

That's it. No more Civ3 for me until the next GotM starts. I think I need a break.

 

[Stone Wolf]

Is there any chance to build the Great Library in a deity game with this many opponents? I managed the pyramids in GotM-19 but now the AI civs only need 240 shields to build a 400 point wonder. I am going to do the Conquest game this time, so if I used one of my settlers to build a city that made nothing but a granary and then the wonder I might be able to do it. Of course, I'd have to do it in my capital if I wanted tiles other than the initial 9 or else build a temple and slow the build time down. I could build the cities very closely so that the wonder city could take advantage of the culture radius of the capital, but that really depends on the terrain. Any ideas?

 

[Boyd]

Ambiorix... well you have pretty much sold me on staying put... I have been giving serious thought to it (see my previous post) but after reviewing Cracker's floodplain demo I see how it can be done and done right (thanks Cracker and Ambiorix).

It's always nice to check out hills so maybe I'll waste a worker turn to see the view and if it's stellar well I'll move but otherwise it'll "home, home on the 'floodplains'"...

thoughts on the worker move in this strategy if it turns up nought anyone?

NB. I'll be playing the "open".

 

[DaviddesJ]

Suppose there's a bonus grassland to the NE/NE or NE/E, and wheat to the SE/SE. Then moving E to build the city looks like a good spot (assuming the flood plain under the city doesn't cause disease, but only worked tiles do). Getting the wheat in the city radius for the first 10 turns is worth +20 net food, which is much more than we give up by moving (2f/1s/4c). Furthermore, we can move, then grow in 5 turns (based on 4 food/turn from the wheat), and then we also can work the bonus grassland for the next 5 turns.

I'm inclined to move the worker S. If I do see wheat, I can carry through on my plan, and the worker can irrigate the wheat asap. If I find nothing, then I'll just settle on the start tile, and irrigate the space my worker is on.

 

[DaviddesJ]

P.S. Why does the hill to the W/NW make it easier to see stuff on the other side of the hill, than if it weren't there??

 

[Txurce]

Stone Wolf, the GL can definitely be built. Start it right away in your second city - maybe even your third - and make sure it's on a river, preferably with good shield potential. If need be, stock the city with workers, although this is a real luxury. Researching it in time is no problem, especially since we start with the alphabet.

But...

...The AI can still beat you to it, no matter what you do. It's a decent roll of the dice, but a serious setback if you miss it. The question is, are you feeling lucky?

 

[Stone Wolf]

Originally posted by DaviddesJ
P.S. Why does the hill to the W/NW make it easier to see stuff on the other side of the hill, than if it weren't there??

From hills you can see 2 tiles in every direction instead of 1 because of the additional height. You can't see over other hills, forests, jungles or mountains, but you will see more tiles than from a flat terrain type. You can also see further over water tiles than land (2 tiles as well). I don't know if that stacks with the altitude bonus, but either way you'll be able to see a good ways into the water and that might tell you if you're seeing ocean or just a small lake.

 

[DaviddesJ]

Stone Wolf: Obviously you're mistaken, because in the start graphic, you can see over the W/NW hill to the other side, whereas you can't see terrain equally far away in other directions, that isn't on the other side of a hill.

This is just an amusing glitch in how the computer determines visibility.

 

[Boyd]

You know... upon further eye strain... what is in the fog to the NW? Something is there...

Edge of a forest?

The symbol for shield?

 

[Stone Wolf]

You can see the edges of the surrounding terrain, which always happens. When I say that hills, etc, block visibility I only mean when you could normally see more than one tile. If you're on a hill and there is a hill SE of you, you won't be able to see the tile SE of the second hill (other than the edge which you can always see). If you have plains to the SW, you will be able to see the whole tile SW of the plains. That gives you two tiles of visibility SW, but only one SE, because of the intervening hill.

On the flip side, mountains and hills are easier to spot than other types of terrain. I mean, in RL you an see mountains in the distance while not being able to see what the terrain is at the base of the mountain. In the game you can see a hill two tiles away even when on flat ground, which is why you can see the hill to the W/NW when you can't see terrain at the exact same distance in other directions. Presumably, then, all the tiles in the first ring you can't see are neither mountains or hills.

 

[DaviddesJ]

Boyd: I think what you're seeing under the NW/NW fog is just the edge of the blue dot on the center of the plains tile there.

 

[DaviddesJ]

My conclusion from this whole thread is that cracker, who knows the answer, should just publish as part of the start-game knowledge, the information about terrain/resources under all of the partially hidden tiles visible at start. That would put everyone on an equal basis: no staring at jpg artifacts, zoomer programs, differences between monitors, etc.

 

[Boyd]

Probabaly just a blue dot, DaviddesJ... I believe you are right.

IMO, we are all on an equal footing as those with better monitors and experience in deciphering the tea leaves share those epiphenies (or edgy guesses).

 

[cracker]

Originally posted by DaviddesJ
My conclusion from this whole thread is that cracker ... should just publish as part of the start-game knowledge, the information about terrain/resources under all of the partially hidden tiles visible at start.

Rest assured that this will probably not happen based on the statistics that I/We monitor about actual game play from our gizzilions of electronic sources.

In this game format, the mystery and process of discovery have great value to the sense of wonder that should be part of the opening game.

Speculation is good for the soul and we should not loose sight of the fact the good general play concepts will triumph in the long run over the one lucky move.

 

[Yndy]

Ambiorix, since I did not manage to succeed any cultural victory on deity I probably shouldn't make any comments but I just can't keep my mouth shut. I subscribe to everything that Ronald and daviddesJ wrote, just want to add that you should make an estimation of how many cities you will need. The best I've seen is 50 cities About 2K culture each but my advice is to try to get as many as 60-100.
Well you probably knew that but what i really wanted to tell you is that some AI civs build tons of culture and you have to wipe them out to get double the culture of the next competitor. I'll give you my deity training before GOTM 20. It's 570AD. I have about 2500 culture while Babylon is 15 times larger than me at about 32,000 culture. You can only beat that by destroying that civ. TO this end it would be nice if you could 'encourage' the other civs to war between them.

Stone Wolf, I was going to say you can only build the GL with a leader, but if Txurce says otherwise, you might get a chance (i never bothered to tell you the truth). Just remember that the AI usually build the GL around 750BC to 500BC.