Gotm21-Melee - Pregame Discussion

[ControlFreak]

Seems like the natural worker progression would be to move to the Lamb (yes, its definitely a lamb to the W). Mine/Road it. Then move to the Olives and mine/road it. These 2 tiles will both be 2F, 2S in Despotism. They will both be 3F out of despotism and the olive hill will be 3F, 3S.

The fish is just 2F until harbor but the extra cash will be nice as there are no rivers.

Since we have more shields than food, I would think a granary would be a must build as they basically convert sheilds to food. If the whole map is like the start (which I suspect it is), the Pyramids would be extremely effective (provided we're not on a tiny island). Since the first spoiler requires the full world map, I doubt Astronomy is required. That reduces the importance of the Great Lighthouse a little. Between the Pyramids and the Great Lighthouse, I would chose the Pyramids. Of course, on Monarchy we have seen in the past that it's possible to build both.

I know that at least the Minoans start with Pottery. They are probably easy to find because if I added a nice new civ to the game, I'd want to showcase it. Therefore, I think min science on writing and beelining to mapmaking is the way to go.

 

[jeffelammar]

The Unique Unit (UU) for the Minoans is the bronze age javelineer or Peltast, which replaces the spearman but has similar characteristics (2/2/1) to the Babylonian Bowman that you are well familiar with in Civ3. Part of the Peltast's unique ability is the extra skill to defend each other in groups by hurling javelins into the face of onrushing attackers whenever they can defend as part of a group of other units. The Peltast unit comes to us courtesy of the very professional unit design work of CivFanatics member Kryten.

Cool - Am I right in assuming that this is done by giving them bombardment with a zero range?

Looks like Lamb and Olives in the immediate vicinity. My gut reaction is to move my worker west to the lambs and unless something shows up, then found on the coast. I might plan on a later move of my capitol a bit inland to improve the # of uncorrupted cities.

 

[Txurce]

Historically, the Minoans were a commercial civ centered in Crete, not nearly as warlike as the Greeks, who replaced them in the Aegean hierarchy. But in our game they are expansionist, militaristic, and - as noted by ControlFreak - unlikely to be buried on the other end of the map. Once they get bronze working - soon, given their scouts - they will have a UU that will be tough to beat with archers, and will likely require using hoplites in defense, thus triggering an early UU. The big question - especially if playing Predator - is whether they are neighbors on the same land mass, or whether (like the historical Minoans) they start on their own island. If they are on the same land mass, that early death struggle will require either an extremely early archer rush - virtually impossible on Predator - or waiting for swords, which could be crippling in terms of early expansion.

 

[denyd]

An off the wall thought, since we're given the number of tiles and not the map size, it's possible for a very wide, yet not very high map (like a zoom in on the Med from a world map picture).

Like most others so far, I'll move the worker to the west, and if nothing else neat shows up, settle in place, start research for writing and building a hoplite, worker will move to the hill for mining and road.

 

[ControlFreak]

Just a statement in need of confirmation:

Barbarians will not trigger our golden age by sacrificing themselves on our hoplite.

Right? Otherwise, I'm building warriors for MP and defense to prevent an accidental GA in despotism with 2 size 2 cities.

 

[Txurce]

Barbarians cannot trigger a GA.

 

[scubagtr]

I know Cracker stated somewhere in these threads that a Hoplite defending a city WOULD trigger a GA. But now I'm not sure if he meant against an AI or a barb or is there a difference?

I know Brabs can't create a Great Leader.

 

[a space oddity]

Yeah, barb fights will not trigger a GA. Only UU fights with the AI can trigger one, whether it is in offence or defense, make no difference as long as you win it!

 

[alamo]

Not that great of a position w/o irrigation.

Building hoplites is a good idea if it fits your production plans. They will be good for a looong time.

Looks like more resource dots on the bonuses - good deal. That sheep in +2 food, so it must be lambs?

Huge map w/15 rivals This could take all month, especially for the space race guys.

• Lambs: bonus; +2 food (found on Hills and Plains)
• Sheep: bonus; +2 food +1 shield (found on Hills and Plains)
• Wool: luxury; +2 food +1 shield + 1 commerce (found on Hills and Plains)
• Oysters: bonus; +2 food + 1 commerce (found in Coast)
• Pearls: bonus; +2 food + 3 commerce (found in Coast)
• Rocks (offshore): bonus; +1 shield + 1 commerce (found in Coast)
• Goats: bonus; +2 food +1 shield (found on Desert, Hills, Mtns)
• Menudo (young goats): bonus; +2 food (found on Desert, Hills, Mtns)
• Olives: bonus; +2 food +1 commerce (found on Desert, Hills, Mtns)
• Cotton: luxury; +1 shield +2 commerce (found on Desert and Plains)

BTW, the left frame on the GOTM21 page looks a bit too wide.

 

[denyd]

Cracker: "In order to preserve some of the historic rivalries that might be associated with the Mediterranean, this game includes a number of civilizations that would have been given the Scientific trait by the original Firaxis design paramaters. The PTWv1.21 patch alters the impact of potentially having more than one civ in the game with the scientific trait and this patch fix has not been made available to all players. In order to balance this effect civs that normally would have been Scientific have retained the starting tech bonuses but have been reassign to have some other appropriately tested trait. With some investigation you should easily figure out these changes and you will observe that, in combination with other map features, the shift in civ traits is not a significant issue as long as a broad balance has been maintained. This same effect could have been obtained by switching to civilizations that did not belong in the game from a historic or regional perspective, but this would have reduced the quality of the game experience."

Oh goody.....

 

[JamesL]

This looks to be a very interesting GOTM. It is unclear how much contact our Civ will have with other Civs. What are the thoughts of you guys on the relative ratios of tax:science? Do you think it best to go for a high tax, low science strategy or vice versa?

My thoughts are to go for high science assuming we are alone then to quickly switch to high tax if we are not.

 

[scubagtr]

The only trait I need the other civs to have is the ability to die by the blades of my swords. :die:

 

[ltccone]

It looks like the coastal tile in the forest two tiles NW of the starting position may be the mouth of a river. What does everyone one else think?

 

[scubagtr]

Possibly, but it looks a lot like the tile we are on (as far as the coastal contour), so hard to say.

 

[alexman]

Huge map?
Last game was only standard, and each turn was taking me up to 90 minutes to play in the Middle Ages! I hope I can finish this one in time because it seems like a really cool scenario (not to mention that my real name is Alex and I am Greek!! ).

On huge maps early research is very slow, so Writing in 40 turns, hoping to get pottery from the Minoans, seems like the best approach right now.

 

[cracker]

Alexman, hold the fenzy!! the map size fits the "large" category just like Gotm's 9, 13, and 17. Technically all three of those games were Archipelago style with 74%, 84%, and 52% water.

 

[Svar]

I'm new to analyzing hidden terrain features but it looks like grassland directly east and lots of grassland west but covered with forest. The only forested tile west not grassland is the one on the coast. Question is which way is most likely to yield a river.

My first move will be the worker to the lambs then see what is revealed in those forested tiles. If there is nothing interesting there, I'm tempted to send the settler east to expose the grassland tile. The only other option would be to send the settler SE so the next move could still be building a port city.

My guess is that the starting location is on the southern coast of a large lake, the Mediteranean should be south.

I still want to see all the analysis from the terrain experts as to what is really there. They were amazingly accurate last game.

My feeling for a quick start to this game is to find a source of fresh water to irrigate all those plains tiles.

 

[simonsezz]

W, W, I believe is hills. E, E I believe is more hills. There IS a hidden sheep resource SE, SE which will be in our radius if we settle right where we are. And knowing Cracker isn't too sadistic (thankfully) I predict fresh water somewhere east southeast so we can get at least one bonus food by irrigating that sheep.
As the game announcement mentions isolated pockets of productive land and strategic control points I predict mountains and water close to all sides S W and E. We will have room for somewhere between 6 and 10 cities in our initial location with some freshwater present (probably not terribly convenient as is already apparent from start position) before having to hop either water or mountains to take out a rival, sixteen civs on a bicycle built for twelve. On the plus side we can look for these strategic control points where our Hoplites should SHINE. If you want to expand and/or usurp territory I would plan on a golden age late ancient age, head for your preferred gov. type stat.
Only my third game of the month so take it with a grain of salt but first two were wins and I was one of the few to guess goats, agreed with the olives, and was I the ONLY one to get Monarch level right due to guessed Naval/Terrain obstacles? Remember a few poo pooing the Monarch idea but no one agreeing.
My two cents for what it's worth.
P.S. Will plop settler first then if it is sheep s.e. I'll send my worker that way to road and hopefully find water, two mines (one a hill) for first 2 developments with non-industrious workers does net some shields but oh.....the thumb twiddling wait.

Edit: Added the P.S. and fixed a spelling error

 

[jeffelammar]

Originally posted by denyd
Cracker: "In order to preserve some of the historic rivalries that might be associated with the Mediterranean...

Oh goody.....

No doubt. This is one of the features that bothers me about the GOTM mods. I like many of the mods, but I think too much effort is expended "evening" out the PTW/Vanilla Civ differences. Removing Scientific from civs changes the dynamic more than I would like.

 

[simonsezz]

On the scientific front.......does this mean WE will be the ONLY scientific civ........or will there also be one and only one 'AI' civ with science? Does W, W look funky to anyone else......maybe cotton on hill? Not sure about this one.