CruddyLeper
Unworshipped Deity
That's what I'm HOPING for - I can't guarantee it but it could be so why not go it? I'm I'm wrong - ah well, I'm sure the wood could come in handy for something. Like, vet Hoplites maybe.
Gotm21-Melee - Pregame Discussion
- Thread starter cracker
- Start date
That's what I'm HOPING for - I can't guarantee it but it could be so why not go it? I'm I'm wrong - ah well, I'm sure the wood could come in handy for something. Like, vet Hoplites maybe.
DaviddesJ
Deity
People might want to consider (and discuss) the possible applicability of the RCP strategy to the GOTM21 start position. See the RCP thread in the Strategy Articles forum.
I'll start with the observation that RCP doesn't work as well for coastal cities, just because you can't build a complete ring around the capital. One alternative would be to build an early FP nearby (inland), and build rings around that.
I'll start with the observation that RCP doesn't work as well for coastal cities, just because you can't build a complete ring around the capital. One alternative would be to build an early FP nearby (inland), and build rings around that.
DaviddesJ
Deity
Here's a trick I discovered for detecting terrain features under the shroud (resources, rivers, etc.). In PTW, you can use Control-N to selectively turn on or off particular terrain features. If you're trying to figure out whether there's a resource or river under the shroud, you can get information by turning on or off just the one particular thing you are looking for, and switching quickly between the two screens to see if any pixels change. If there's even a slight change, then there must be something there.
Of course this can only be used once the game starts; it doesn't work on the image posted here. So it won't help for the pregame discussion. But I did want to share it here because it seems to me that if anyone can use it, then it should be general knowledge.
Of course this can only be used once the game starts; it doesn't work on the image posted here. So it won't help for the pregame discussion. But I did want to share it here because it seems to me that if anyone can use it, then it should be general knowledge.
southpawsc
Chieftain
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2003
- Messages
- 10
You would be able to see the hills(whole tile) if they were in fact hills, so I think its safe to say they are grasslands
kryszcztov
Deity
- Joined
- Mar 1, 2003
- Messages
- 2,423
With so little commerce available, I will surely go for Writing at minimum science at first. The only sea tile I'll use will be the fish. Therefore it is really important to find fresh water in the area, maybe the key is there. Also a harbour might help when the capital has finished building its settler(s), to get more commerce from the sea : if no fresh water is available somewhere near, it will be a good advantage, especially for Conquest players. 
With so many shields at the beginning, it might pay to build hoplites pretty quickly too.
With so many shields at the beginning, it might pay to build hoplites pretty quickly too.
Txurce
Deity
We will be the only scientific civ in the game. If we weren't, the PTW players would have a significant advantage over the 1.29 players, especially in pursuit of the space race or a diplomatic win. Under those circumstances, it would be difficult to compare scores. I would rather have an even game, where I'll never notice the absence of other civs getting bonus techs, rather than an uneven one where they do.
To achieve this, Cracker could have either had the Americans and Aztecs in the game, for example, or else modded the Ottomans and Persians. Given the terrific feel the Mediterranean Melee promises to have, I would much rather have culturally linked civs. I don't think Babylon without the bonus is going to play one iota differently.
In reply to southpaws comment, 11 tiles visible in gotm 20 start pic. 10 tiles visible in gotm 19 start pic. and NINETEEN tiles visible in gotm 21 start pic. Granted some extras due to open water but I believe distance diagonally is calculated as greater for many purposes so hills to WW and EE is doable but I'm no expert so maybe someone who IS could venture and opinion.
Edit. Just found a map (14?) where 2 tile distant diagonal hills are visible so I'll admit it, I'm wrong
. And it's 18 tiles not 19 so not only am I not an expert I apparently can't count either.......
Edit. Just found a map (14?) where 2 tile distant diagonal hills are visible so I'll admit it, I'm wrong
. And it's 18 tiles not 19 so not only am I not an expert I apparently can't count either.......Qitai
.
You will be able to see 2 walking tiles from/to a hill if there is nothing in between to block your sight. So, EE and WW are definately not hills.
I've read about the early war with archers tactic. I've also seen research paths suggested like 'pottery -> map making' or 40 turn 'writing'.
I was wondering. We start with Bronze Working, so at minimum research (40 turns) we could have Iron Working. Considering our start position (high production, relatively low food), we could probably produce a reasonable amount of hoplites, but especially warriors in between the needed settlers. Let's assume we have an iron source reasonably closeby and haven't given our money away, we could upgrade our warriors to swordsman (at least between 3 to 5). Together with a pair of hoplites and let's say 5 swordsman, we should be able to secure a few cities (even on Predator).
There are 15 rivals on a map which normally holds only 12, so early war seems likely and advantagous. Am I missing something here? Have I overlooked something?
It should be more efficient than the archer tactic. And with 16 civs on the same landmass, it seems unlikely to me that a '40 turn writing research' will yield success (certainly since we will not be the only commercial civ starting with Alphabet).
Any thoughts?
mudfoot (up to some warmongering mischief
)
I was wondering. We start with Bronze Working, so at minimum research (40 turns) we could have Iron Working. Considering our start position (high production, relatively low food), we could probably produce a reasonable amount of hoplites, but especially warriors in between the needed settlers. Let's assume we have an iron source reasonably closeby and haven't given our money away, we could upgrade our warriors to swordsman (at least between 3 to 5). Together with a pair of hoplites and let's say 5 swordsman, we should be able to secure a few cities (even on Predator).
There are 15 rivals on a map which normally holds only 12, so early war seems likely and advantagous. Am I missing something here? Have I overlooked something?
It should be more efficient than the archer tactic. And with 16 civs on the same landmass, it seems unlikely to me that a '40 turn writing research' will yield success (certainly since we will not be the only commercial civ starting with Alphabet).
Any thoughts?
mudfoot (up to some warmongering mischief
)
Darkness
Shadow creature
@cracker: So, basically, it's a crowded large size map?
That is good news, because there's no way I can finish a huge size map in a month. I did a HoF attempt on a huge map recently and you really don't want to know how much time went into that... (I had stretches of over 2 hours per turn
)
Interesting start. I hope there's fresh water nearby though, because I would like to see some of those plains irrigated to get my food production to a good level, so I can get out settlers at a good pace...
Because I will (again) be pressed for time next month I'll go for the open class again, as I think the barbarians in the predator class will slow me down and if that happens I don't think I'll have enough time to finish the game....
That is good news, because there's no way I can finish a huge size map in a month. I did a HoF attempt on a huge map recently and you really don't want to know how much time went into that... (I had stretches of over 2 hours per turn
)Interesting start. I hope there's fresh water nearby though, because I would like to see some of those plains irrigated to get my food production to a good level, so I can get out settlers at a good pace...
Because I will (again) be pressed for time next month I'll go for the open class again, as I think the barbarians in the predator class will slow me down and if that happens I don't think I'll have enough time to finish the game....
Mudfoot, that seems like an interesting idea... might well be doable... Like yourself, I find the swordsman rush much more effective, would be even more useful if the first neighbours are the minoans.
Although with a very hill/mountain strewn map, there is no guarantee we'd get iron?
edit: pressed enter too early.
Although with a very hill/mountain strewn map, there is no guarantee we'd get iron?
edit: pressed enter too early.
DaviddesJ
Deity
Does anyone have any thoughts on the difficulty/feasibility of building wonders (e.g., Pyramids) in GOTM21 at the Predator level? At Monarch it should be easy, at Deity it would be difficult to impossible, but this game is in-between (AI players get 2 settlers but only Monarch-level production bonus).
I reckon wonder building would be doable on Predator. The AIs will start with an additional settler and would initially develop faster and initiate the wonder build faster. But they don't have a buildign bonus. The large number of civs though make it increasingly likely that wonder builds would cascade from
Pyramyds to the Great Wall
Pyramyds to the Great Wall
Darkness
Shadow creature
Thanks Yndy, I missed that one.....So, it's like monarch plus?
Thinking about that north coast gave me a scary thought : what if we aren't on the mainland but on Crete ? Sure would give meaning to those predator-settings.
Personally, I'm thinking of a 20k culture victory. Never tried that before, haven't got a clue how to play for that, but gotta try it sometime.
Sure would give meaning to those predator-settings.Personally, I'm thinking of a 20k culture victory. Never tried that before, haven't got a clue how to play for that, but gotta try it sometime.
@Ambiorix: that is a really scary thought! It would make my warmongering plans useless, if not borderline suicidal :suicide: . Now, I don't think Cracker would do this to us, but you are right that it's less of a problem on Conquest (where they can save their chests for a harbor or their first galley?) then on Predator.
It would be challenging though!
mudfoot (not so sure about warmongering anymore, but still
)
It would be challenging though!
mudfoot (not so sure about warmongering anymore, but still
)
DaviddesJ
Deity
Yes, I've been thinking about the possibility that we're on a medium to small island, perhaps with no fresh water at all. On the other hand, that would affect everyone pretty severely, even the Conquest players, and I don't think that cracker would do that in the GOTM. (Although personally I wish for some more "challenging" starts like that. Perhaps this can happen in the future in the revived Tournament, if it isn't permanently tied to the same games as GOTM.)
I do think it's unlikely that there's a river just a couple of spaces away, as some have suggested. The map generation code seems to start everyone on a river, if possible. I think it generates random starts and then individually looks at the neighborhood of each one and moves it a few spaces if possible to a more "suitable" location. And it seems to place a high value on rivers when determining "suitability". So, when there's no river in the initial view, I find there's usually not one very nearby.
P.S. Being on an island would certainly affect the value of building the Pyramids! Of course, there should be time to start the Pyramids and then switch to something else (e.g., FP) if it turns out that the island is too small to make it valuable. Does anyone know the exact definition of "same continent" for wonders like the Pyramids? Does it have to be connected by land? Or can adjacent islands with only coast in between be considered part of the "same continent"? (Like Britain and Crete are part of Europe.)
I do think it's unlikely that there's a river just a couple of spaces away, as some have suggested. The map generation code seems to start everyone on a river, if possible. I think it generates random starts and then individually looks at the neighborhood of each one and moves it a few spaces if possible to a more "suitable" location. And it seems to place a high value on rivers when determining "suitability". So, when there's no river in the initial view, I find there's usually not one very nearby.
P.S. Being on an island would certainly affect the value of building the Pyramids! Of course, there should be time to start the Pyramids and then switch to something else (e.g., FP) if it turns out that the island is too small to make it valuable. Does anyone know the exact definition of "same continent" for wonders like the Pyramids? Does it have to be connected by land? Or can adjacent islands with only coast in between be considered part of the "same continent"? (Like Britain and Crete are part of Europe.)
ltccone
Prince
The Pyramids (or any other continental wonder) affect only cities in the same contiguous landmass.
Txurce
Deity
I think starting on a large island with the Minoans is just the sort of challenge Cracker would create for our learning curve, as he rolls abck from deity to monarch. (And if not being handcuffed to the Minoans, then something similar.)
I've been thinking of going for two wonders, although Yndy raises a good point about cascading. On the plus side, we have only a slight production handicap and a GA ready to be triggered. (A mid-game GA isn't as meaningful on monarch.) The downside could be lack of population. It may be hard to compete with all those civs, some of whom could have prime real estate on top of their 10% production bonus.
On monarch, the alternative to the 40-turn research gambit is to crank up the science! At max research, even a large number of civs doesn't necessarily mean that we would be badly beaten to writing.
I've been thinking of going for two wonders, although Yndy raises a good point about cascading. On the plus side, we have only a slight production handicap and a GA ready to be triggered. (A mid-game GA isn't as meaningful on monarch.) The downside could be lack of population. It may be hard to compete with all those civs, some of whom could have prime real estate on top of their 10% production bonus.
On monarch, the alternative to the 40-turn research gambit is to crank up the science! At max research, even a large number of civs doesn't necessarily mean that we would be badly beaten to writing.
drewshark
Proud Father
@mudfoot
The one problem I see with your early warmongering potential approach is that these hoplites would definately be involved, thus triggering an early GA. This is something I now always avoid until after monarchy, if possible. You seem to have the right idea however that early war will definately be advantageous if you can carry it out quickly and without any long term production setbacks. I personally expect that if we are dealing with several islands or landmasses that if won't be as easy as we think to "hop" from one to another, therefore domination or conquest will require careful strategic thought on how to move troops around.
@daviddesJ
I wouldn't put too much past Cracker when it comes to GOTM and map design. Although it was before Cracker (BC), last summer Egypt was stuck on a moderate sized island all by ourselves in August of last year, I believe. The players who were able to get off the island and get a foothold in the Japanese larger island to the East, were the only ones who made headway early in that game.
The one problem I see with your early warmongering potential approach is that these hoplites would definately be involved, thus triggering an early GA. This is something I now always avoid until after monarchy, if possible. You seem to have the right idea however that early war will definately be advantageous if you can carry it out quickly and without any long term production setbacks. I personally expect that if we are dealing with several islands or landmasses that if won't be as easy as we think to "hop" from one to another, therefore domination or conquest will require careful strategic thought on how to move troops around.
@daviddesJ
I wouldn't put too much past Cracker when it comes to GOTM and map design. Although it was before Cracker (BC), last summer Egypt was stuck on a moderate sized island all by ourselves in August of last year, I believe. The players who were able to get off the island and get a foothold in the Japanese larger island to the East, were the only ones who made headway early in that game.
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