Gotm21-Melee - Pregame Discussion

[CruddyLeper]

Erm... Gingerbread, the cultural border will expand after 10 turns anyway to include that mystery resource...

Assuming you settle at the start position, of course.

 

[Gingerbread Man]

You're not disagreeing with me.
There is sheep/menudo above/east of our start locaton, within our possible borders, on the plains. You can either start with the menudo or the mystery resource for the 1st ten turns.

I would prefer the food bonus, and getting the resource in the shadows later.

Also, I also want the olives on the hills. moving SE will lose it.

 

[zagnut]

While I love this thread and read it all every month, I cannot help but remember that all of the clever hypothesizing goes out the window with the first move of the Worker once the game starts.

Remember last month. Most players were planning to move their Worker to the hill just east of the start position. That move revealed 2 cows to the NE and wheat to the SE. With that information all of the speculation went out the window and a new plan had to be developed.

Rather than what resources might, or might not, be under the fog in the vicinity of the start, I think we should be focusing on the following:

1. Why did cracker change the movement for naval vessels for the Predator game? How does that impact the Open game where the original movement still prevails?

2. What is the impact of the new resources? A lot of this information was immediately available at the beginning of this thread.

3. How does the 3 billion year old geology mesh with the resources?

 

[a space oddity]

Originally posted by zagnut
I think we should be focusing on the following:

1. Why did cracker change the movement for naval vessels for the Predator game? How does that impact the Open game where the original movement still prevails?

2. What is the impact of the new resources? A lot of this information was immediately available at the beginning of this thread.

3. How does the 3 billion year old geology mesh with the resources?

Quite right.

1. That's what I was wandering. Predator should be harder, right? So how's increased movement gonna make things harder?
Only if the Ai is going to benefit! So how about real nearby islands that are reachable through suicide gallies that the AI never use, unless movement is upped?

2. The new resources to me speak of very dry lands... kiss goodbye to rivers and lakes.

3. That's young, yes? So.. mucho hills and mountains, underlining the drought...

 

[DaviddesJ]

Originally posted by a space oddity
So how about real nearby islands that are reachable through suicide gallies that the AI never use, unless movement is upped?

This is a cool theory, but I think it doesn't quite fit the facts. It's true that if there are ocean crossings of one space (i.e., C-S-O-S-C), then these can be safely crossed with the Predator galleys without risk of sinking. And this might give the AI an advantage over normal rules, since the AI doesn't use suicide galleys. (It might be worth testing whether the AI can actually figure out that it's allowed to cross such oceans, under the modified rules. I know the AI didn't move quite correctly in GOTM19 with the galleass; it would get confused by the speed 2 galleass and leave it where it could sink.)

But the fact that the spoiler thread will require contact with all civs (in both Open and Predator) implies to me that ocean crossings aren't required, to make contacts.
So if there's an effect like you're mentioning, I think it's relatively slight.

I really don't think the modified movement will be a disadvantage, but maybe I'll be proven wrong.

I'm not sure if the younger world (3 billion years) means fewer rivers and lakes, or not.

 

[Svar]

Originally posted by a space oddity


1. That's what I was wandering. Predator should be harder, right? So how's increased movement gonna make things harder?
Only if the Ai is going to benefit! So how about real nearby islands that are reachable through suicide gallies that the AI never use, unless movement is upped?

I don't see that movement has been increased. If you want to skirt the coast you can only move 2 tiles per turn. If you move out to a sea tile then parallel the coast through another sea tile before going back to the coast, you move the same as before. If you move out to the open ocean you move faster but you may perish also before navigation. If there are no ocean tiles then movement has been restricted.

 

[CruddyLeper]

Originally posted by zagnut

3. How does the 3 billion year old geology mesh with the resources?

I cannot add anyhing new to your previous 2 questions... but a 3 billion YO geology means more mountains than hills and more hills than flat... given that lakes and rivers occur at lowest elevation (water goes downhill, yes?) then fresh water will be in short supply.

Given that resources will be clustered, it seems that luxury and strategic resource trading will be very important. With 15 civs there aren't enough of either to go around... so getting a monopoly should have a greater impact.

Oh yes, PM for you Zagnut (unrelated topic).

 

[Txurce]

Has Cracker yet to make a map that wasn't intended to steer the players toward a certain style of play?

Why go to the trouble of adding dry-weather resources (and making the earth 3 billion years old) if the map won't be dry and hilly?

Or altering galley movement if galley use won't be central?

Or adding a couple of luxuries if trading them won't be key - for our commercial civ - with 15 AI civs?

Or, finally, creating a brand-new civ if it's not going to play a central role in Greece's game?

I expect aggressive maritime expansion will be necessary in order to acquire both the territory and the resources that are needed to win, and that the Minoans will be the first obstacle in our way. Dealing with those peltasts - whose numbers will be enhanced by a GA - while simultaneously trying to hit the water could be the first big fork in the paths our respective civs will take.

 

[simonsezz]

One more theory to pile on the heap to delete to trash bin as soon as first move is made.
3 Billion years old, large map that's only 46% H2O, and NON-industrious workers. Lotsa mountains, lotsa coast, workers which can't build on mtns. for crap, EXTRA shields, LESS food, All of this making early (pre-navigation) coastal invasions much more attractive than trying to invade overland and the reduced coastal movement of predator galleys forcing a much SLOWER pre-navigation invasion pace possibly even making it easier for predators to invade far away as opposed to their neighbor resulting in corruption and flipping problems for them.
And, if getting 3 or 4 food out of a tile is difficult even with improvements, pre-navigation invasion may actually ALMOST as attractive as settler expansion.
Only played last 2 GOTM's so not exactly an expert at reading Cracker crumbs but let me know what you think, eh?


P.S. pointed out the SHEEP (imho) resource SE/SE at bottom of page 2 of this thread not sure why it took all of page 4 for people to start guessing what it was.

Edit: I guess everyone probably stopped reading after first really, really, dumb sentence thinking me the simpleton I can sometimes be when it comes to the totally obvious.

 

[SirPleb]

My pregame thoughts about GOTM21:

General

The big question is how isolated are we? We might be separated from everyone by water, might have just one local rival, or might be connected to many Civs by land. I don't have a guess. Exploration to find out is an urgent priority.

Food will be a priority. What we see at the start shows a very limited amount of food. If there's a river or lake nearby we can improve the food situation.

At large map settings research is going to take some effort. But Monarch level and being scientific does mean that it will be possible to get ahead in research and to get a fast overall tech pace if we want it. Slowing the tech pace will also be possible - this map's settings make either approach viable.

Opening moves

I'm going to start by moving the worker west onto the lambs. If that reveals a food bonus then I'll move the settler NW. Otherwise I'll settle at the start position.

Initial build sequence

I don't think a granary is an immediate priority with this start. The first town will run out of food if it grows large. It has only two food surplus per turn. Doubling that with a granary would gain just two more food per turn. Pumping out a settler will also (presumably) gain two more food per turn from the town it creates. Pumping the settler is cheaper and faster. So at least at the start I won't worry about granary, I'll build some warriors to go exploring and then aim for finishing a settler as soon as the town reaches size three.

Research

I plan to start by researching Writing at maximum speed. I'm not sure how much faster I can get it than the 40 turn minimum. But any gain I can make over that I want to. (I'm going Predator -> Space so I want a fast tech pace for sure.) My reasoning on going for Writing first:
1) I don't need Pottery quickly since I won't start with a granary build.
2) If there are neighbors around, Writing will be a good tech for trade.
3) If we're isolated on an island, getting to Map Making ASAP is a priority. So Writing and Pottery are the first techs to research. Given point (2) above, might as well start with Writing in case we're not alone.

After getting Writing, if we don't have neighbors it is an easy choice - go for Map Making. If we do have neighbors, it depends on how many and what their situation is. I might go for Map Making anyway, or might trade for earlier techs so that the AI goes for Map Making and then research something else to trade for Map Making later.

Hoplites

I don't plan to build many of these unless defensive action becomes necessary. I prefer to build offensive units. I may use a few Hoplites to trigger a Golden Age though I will try to defer that until after switching to an advanced government.

Wonders

At Monarch level it should be possible to build an early wonder or two. I think the Great Lighthouse could be especially valuable on this map. Colossus might also be helpful. The problems with building wonders will be:
1) 15 other Civs. There will be a fair bit of competition for each wonder and for any given wonder there will probably be one or two Civs building it in cities with good production.
2) With 15 rivals, and a high tech pace (not inherent in the map but I'll be trying for a high tech pace) wonder cascades will be common.
3) Our initial growth seems likely to be slow, making it difficult to get cities started on big projects soon enough. I'd like to have cities working on Forbidden Palace, Great Lighthouse, and Colossus. But it seems unlikely I'll be able to dedicate three cities to such projects soon enough.

Palace jump

Setting up for a Palace jump will be a high priority for me.

Although corruption will be lower than usual (large map settings and we're a commercial Civ) there's a good chance that geography will limit development around the capital. And therefore that a second productive region will be a priority.

Since the coastal start position isn't ideal for the Palace, building a Forbidden Palace a bit inland and jumping the Palace could work out well.

If the game develops such that a fair bit of early warfare makes sense then I might change my mind on this and try for a leader to hurry the Forbidden Palace somewhere, leaving the Palace at the coastal start position.

Miscelleneous

I expect that galleys will play an important part in the game. I'm nervous that there may be many squid. In case of this I plan to build early galleys in pairs, in separate coastal towns. One galley will start exploring first, as bait for the squids. After it has been out for a short time, the second galley will leave the other town and hopefully will have some safe time to explore - with luck the squid will be converging on the first galley.

As usual when playing a scientific Civ I plan to build few (if any) temples. Libraries will be a better way to generate culture.

 

[zagnut]

I like the term "cracker crumbs". He must have a ball watching us try to guess what is going on in his mind.

I don't think the modified naval movement is in the Predator game to give them any kind of advantage. I think cracker found that the type of map he selected for this game need some modification to naval movement to make it harder for the Predator folk. While we would all like to be able to move further on ocean squares it seems counter-intuitive that being able to move further would be a disability. However, it must be.

Or perhaps, as I think others have said, the Predators coastal movement is penalized and so maybe there is inconsequential ocean in the game. Whatever, the Predator's game is tougher and so we Open players shouldn't bemoan the failure to be able to travel long distances over the ocean. I believe that it must be that cracker is penalizing the Predator players by not giving them the coastal movement they really need.

 

[Txurce]

Originally posted by zagnut
I think cracker found that the type of map he selected for this game need some modification to naval movement to make it harder for the Predator folk... Perhaps, as I think others have said, the Predators coastal movement is penalized and so maybe there is inconsequential ocean in the game.

Zagnut, I think the coastal movememnt is a disadvantage created to slow down meeting neighboring civs, who could be reached via the coast, thereby giving the squids a chance to do their thing. But I think there will be some relevant ocean tiles, and the Predator player who learns to cope with the slow coastal movement will have an advantage in the open sea. We'll know soon enough!

In the meantime, I'm feeling pretty smug about having nearly an identical plan down the line to SirPleb's. Now all I have to do is execute it!

 

[TheFounder]

I'm new in this forum. I'm new in Civfanatics. And my English language skills also not old. But I will try to correct it. My think about GOTM is: why I need to download big file and then try to configure my Civilization 3 for this game? Why it couldn't be simply save without any graphics changes?

 

[CruddyLeper]

TheFounder; the GOTM uses civs that are NOT in original Civ3, BUT are in Play The World. Also, extra resources in this months game, different barbarians (squids too)... Add in the PTW extras like Stock Exchange, Ports of Entry (Commercial docks in PTW) and you can see there are LOTS of extra things to add to standard Civ3 to give those without PTW a similar game to players with PTW.

It is worth the big download. Believe me on this...

EDIT: If you have not got it yet, get the latest patch for Civ3 (1.29f) from

http://www.civ3.com

 

[Qitai]

Well... my take.

There does not seems to be any obvious good direction. Base on the map location and the following.

(1) Suspected Wool to the SE, SE (My comparison still shows it is wool, not ivory)
(2) W/E both has grassland, but West looks like forest to me.
(3) W, SW, SW looks like a desert to me. And desert isn't something I like.
(4) Land seems to curve north on the east base on the fact that the tile NE, NE, NE is a coast.
(5) We are near the centre of the map, and that means Jungle. I don't like Jungle start and would rather move northward.

So, I will move the worker E to reveal 5 more tiles and several more borders. After that, my settler may
(1) Move E if tile revealed are good or has potential.
(2) Move S to get wool immediately (if it is indeed wool) and still have all the starting resources within radius
(3) Settle on spot if all my speculations are wrong and further move looks hopeless.

And in the unlikely case, if the water to the north is a lake!! I will just settle right away.

For science, I will go for a wait and see approach. Depending on how the exploration goes and who are our neighbours, I may go either writing, iron or pottery.

Since this is Monarch level, I would probably try to extort cities from the AI through military stockpiling and war declarations.

 

[Renata]

I've always wanted to try a 20K culture victory, and never found the right opportunity. This doesn't look like it, either. Lots of hills, little food, non-industrious workers. A slow-developing empire, wtih 15 rivals trying to steal all the wonders. And a non-militaristic civ, with possibly a lot of water separating me from the civs I'd like to leader-farm. Doesn't look good ....

But then again, I do like a challenge and I do sometimes like to go against the flow, so maybe I'll try it anyway. Maybe.

Renata, feeling noncomittal

 

[King Of America]

Do people think there is much value in an aggressive military style if you're going for a Monarch-level space victory? (The level is important because we should be OK in the tech race, if not leading it).

By the end of the game, we will want big cities that produce research and productions (never bad at any point of the game, of course). Will wars help us get those?

Of course, we will want to either take on or entice others to take on the civilizations that are Industrious, Scientific, or both--Egypt, Babylon, and, most importantly, Persia (can you imagine the Greeks not facing the Persians).

Whaddya say?

Edit: of course, attacking for resources or lux. is another consideration as well.

 

[CruddyLeper]

KingOfAmerica: Definitely! I think so. To beat others in the space race, we will need more commerce = more cities. With 15 civs, we will have to build a big empire quickly. For Predators, this will be very important.

Also note, we are only civ with Scientific (others have been changed for this to even the PTW/non-PTW playing field).

 

[King Of America]

Please explain the PTW/non-PTW differences about science. I missed that day in school A non-scientific Persia would be nice.

 

[TheFounder]

Another question: what is the size of file I need to download? More then 1Mb? 5Mb? I need the PTW version 1.14f, 1.21f or simply Civ3 1.29f? What is better?