GOTM55 Spoiler

[Ali Ardavan]

I have played to -475. I did a map analysis and found a 4 special site and a hut each within three tiles of the starting position. The continent being #1 did not allow me to ascertain either of them are on land, but I decided to risk it and go for it. The hut gave Currency; almost anything else would have been better. A None unit or money was what I was hoping for. Alphabet would have been nice too. The 4 special site turned out to be the middle forest of the row of 3. I took it. It took a while for me to get the other settler there and change it to plains. But it did allow for a quick warrior which revealed the whale and tipped the next hut which gave a supported Chariot.

The Chariot went on a hut hunt. The warrior was quickly returned to Persepolis to be disbanded in an effort to get a size 1 settler. Next hut gave Horseback riding. Two turns after I disbanded the warrior expecting a size 1 settler soon, an advanced tribe gave Pasargadae. Great outcome on its own, but I had to change Persepolis production to Horseman losing about 20 shields in the process. The next turn another advanced tribe builds Susa. Wow! two in a row; that must be a first. Next series of huts were all less than helpful: empty, Warrior code, Iron Working.

In -2650 I ran into Mongol Samarkand. From its location it likely came about by an advanced tribe. Bronze Working -> Mongol (2) -> Polytheism. They also had Masnory, Wheel, and Mysticism. I refused further knowledge exchange, as Monarchy is already delayed too far. They also gave me a 100g tribute. A hut that same turn gave 50g. I became rich overnight!

Next two huts were very helpful too. A None elephant and Code of Laws. In -2400 I ran into Kiev. Peace -> Russian (2) -> 50g. Monarchy was finally established in -1650. By -1000 I had 10 cities. Besides expansion I started building elephants in anticipation of war with Russians.

Before I was ready to attack, the Russians did 3 simultaneous sneak attacks in -850 two of which were successful. I lost an explorer and a settler. War production picked up at this point but not to the exclusion of all else. Russian civilization was destroyed in -475.

Meanwhile, I have built Marco and Hanging Gardens. I swapped maps with Spanish and Zulu. For some reason the Spanish have only 1 city in -675. Everyone else has at least 3. By -575 the Zulu have totally explored their continent but only built cities around their capital.

 

[Peaster]

A 4-special site is great for OCC, but it sounds like you are playing for conquest...?

I have been a little more interested in gold than green lately, but I took your comments about finishing before 500 AD as a challenge. I am at 500 BC now, with Pyr + MPE + LH + HG + good outposts. No conquests yet, but I plan to finish by about 300 AD according to the oracle. With good luck and no re-spawns, a BC finish might be possible.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

A 4-special site is great for OCC, but ...

It is great for everything, specially the ones that give you arrows. The original site had only one special (wheat) and its bonus is food. At the start I need shields and arrows much more than food. Three turns for 3 more specials I think is worthwhile. Besides, this had the the extra advantage that I could get the first hut before my first city which could lead to a None unit. Of course, in my case the hut yielded Currency but it was a risk I was willing to take.

it sounds like you are playing for conquest...?

My original plan was to conquer the butterfly and then go for a space ship. But now (-175 and having conquered Russians in -475) I am having doubts.
I do not want to play conquest all the way unless I have to. It is just not as enjoyable to me. I have long been supreme so I need the Mongols or their successors (my key civ) in the game. The problem with wiping out Mongols is that both Spanish and Zulu have completely explored their continents and have units all over it even though they have settled only a tiny portion. If they wipe out Mongol successors I will be seriously hurt in the research department.
An alternative is to forge an alliance with the Mongols, go through their territory, and Conquer the right wing of the butterfly. I do not know whether I can get them to that point and even if I do I have to watch them all the time not to stab me in the back. There is no way I can get to the right wing through land otherwise. Of course I could start building ships and ship my units over there. I guess that is yet another alternative.
Another alternative is to go after Zulu. They have plenty of good land but have not settled much of it. I could seal off the left wing rather easily because of the mountain range east of Mongolia. But I have to build the Lighthouse or wait for Navigation.
Going after Spanish is an inferior alternative, so I am not even considering it. If I want an offshore adventure, Zulu is the proper one.
Yet another alternative is to stop conquering right now. My elephant army is on the mountain range east of Mongolia and the entire left wing of the butterfly is either my territory or empty. I have 20 cities and can easily build 20 more on the left wing. That is more than enough for a good landing game.

I have been a little more interested in gold than green lately, but I took your comments about finishing before 500 AD as a challenge. I am at 500 BC now, with Pyr + MPE + LH + HG + good outposts. No conquests yet, but I plan to finish by about 300 AD according to the oracle. With good luck and no re-spawns, a BC finish might be possible.

Impressive. You have 4 wonders and outposts (meaning a navy) at -500? Well, the speed of your conquests have always been amazing to me, good luck.
I am wondering why you bothered making Pyramids?

 

[Peaster]

It (a 4-special site) is great for everything, specially the ones that give you arrows. The original site had only one special (wheat) and its bonus is food. At the start I need shields and arrows much more than food. Three turns for 3 more specials I think is worthwhile.

To me, a good food-shield mix is the key to fast growth. After settling quickly near the wheat and the whale, I pushed south to the grass ASAP. I am happy if each city is on grass with one special + 1-2 forest. If there is a 2nd special nearby, I save it for the next city. Sharing specials is very handy too.

An alternative is to forge an alliance with the Mongols, go through their territory, and Conquer the right wing of the butterfly.... Of course I could start building ships and ship my units over there. I guess that is yet another alternative.

I guess you meant the left wing ? And you don't have ships yet ? I thought overseas trade was a big part of landing games (but I know almost nothing of that).

You have 4 wonders and outposts (meaning a navy) at -500? ...
I am wondering why you bothered making Pyramids?

I have played to 350BC now, and have 15 triremes. A decent navy is necessary for EC with restarts on. I have used my outposts to take 4 of the enemy capitals. But my economy (etc) has not gone so well, so I can't afford all the bribes and rushes I had planned. My Spanish and Greek outposts will not be very effective unless I get some tribute or booty soon.

I built the Pyramids first, in 1650BC, to speed growth. I guess it adds about 40 per cent to my average city size eventually, and maybe 30 per cent to shield + arrow production. And I always have plenty of size 2+ cities to make more settlers in.

In 350BC, I have 40 cities, mostly size 2 or 3. Costs = I had to build HG in 725 BC to keep the peace, and am employing about 20 entertainers. I doubt this makes sense for pure EC at Emp/Deity level, but it does build up your score. It probably also makes sense for EC players at lower levels.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

After settling quickly near the wheat and the whale,

So you did not settle at the original location either. Whale is by far the best thing you can get at the start of the game. Whale and wheat on plains for 1 move certainly beats whale, wheat, fish, and buffalo on forest for 3 moves.

And you don't have ships yet ? I thought overseas trade was a big part of landing games (but I know almost nothing of that).

None. I doubt that even if I was playing a peaceful game, I would have any by now. There is plenty of trade I can do on land. But I am playing a hybrid. Except for my science city (equipped so far with Colossus, Hanging Gardens, Temple, Library, and soon a marketplace), the rest of my empire is geared towards war.

I have played to 350BC now, and have 15 triremes. A decent navy is necessary for EC with restarts on. I have used my outposts to take 4 of the enemy capitals. But my economy (etc) has not gone so well, so I can't afford all the bribes and rushes I had planned. My Spanish and Greek outposts will not be very effective unless I get some tribute or booty soon.

Amazing. 4 enemy capitals wiped out! Unbelievable.

I built the Pyramids first, in 1650BC, to speed growth. I guess it adds about 40 per cent to my average city size eventually, and maybe 30 per cent to shield + arrow production. And I always have plenty of size 2+ cities to make more settlers in.

I usually skip Pyramids in favor of other early wonders. I love to capture it. Unfortunately no one is even trying to build it in my game. At Deity and emperor I usually find my cities growing too fast as is under Monarchy and through celebrations in Republic and Democracy.

In 350BC, I have 40 cities, mostly size 2 or 3. Costs = I had to build HG in 725 BC to keep the peace, and am employing about 20 entertainers. I doubt this makes sense for pure EC at Emp/Deity level, but it does build up your score. It probably also makes sense for EC players at lower levels.

40 cities! My god. I am playing mostly for conquest so far and by -175 I only have 20.

 

[Peaster]

DONE! Towards the end, I had pretty bad luck with respawns (approx 18) and casualties (11 vet ellies) and huts (20 barb horses from 3 huts). My rep got so bad, I couldn't even get maps from the new civs, and had to find them by bumping into them.

But with approx 70 cities churning out vet ellies and boats, and some attention to respawn patterns, it was over in 100AD. Except for the Pyramids and the luxury slider, I did not play for score this time.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

100 AD! Wowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
I have to study your game at some point. Even though early conquest is not my style. Still I feel there is a lot to be learned.

I offered Mongols alliance; they refused. I tech gifted them to Worshipful; they still refused. I started attacking them with the goal of reducing them to a pet civ of 1-3 cities. So far (-0050) I have taken only one city (Bokhara) because they have sent so many units my way. I have killed a dozen so far with no casualties on my side, but most of my elephants are too wounded to attack.

The white civ keeps respawning in Zulu territory and even though at the opposite end of Zulu land so far the Zulu have destroyed both Celts and Romans. Now Celts are back again.

 

[Peaster]

Thanks, Ali, for your comments and for posting the game.

Without restarts, some players (solo, grigor, etc) have posted great EC games using 10 cities or less. But with restarts on, it seems better to think big - more cities, wonders, units... to control the whole map.

I am tempted to comment on your game, but should probably wait until you are done.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

Peaster, go ahead and comment. They will be welcome at any time. I am at 1AD now and Mongols have lost Karakorum (their capital) and Kashgar to my elephants. Kabul was taken over by Taliban (a vicious brand of barbarians) and destroyed when they tried to take it back.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

Status at +0001
Population: 1.14M; Cities: 26; Trade routes: 4D0F; Government: Monarchy
Finance. Treasury: 26; Cost per turn: 9; Income: 25; Tax rate: 30%
Science: Total advances: 23; Advance every 11 turns; Science rate: 70%
Production: 94MT; 0 polluted tiles
Wonders: Marco, Hanging Gardens, Colossus.
Units: 9 settlers (1 None), 1 Warrior, 8 Phalanx, 1 Horsemen, 1 Chariot, 12 Elephants (2 None), 1 Crusader, 7 Caravans.
Russians: Destroyed by me
Celts: Destroyed by Zulu
Romanss: Destroyed by Zulu
Celts: 1 cities, 13 tech, 1g; War with me
Zulu: 9 cities, 14 tech, 522g; War with me
Vikings: 4 cities, 14 tech, 38g; War with Greeks
Spanish: 4 cities, 10 tech, 339g; War with me
Greeks: 7 cities, 13 tech, 36g; War with Vikings
Mongols: 4 cities, 21 tech, 83g; War with me

 

[Peaster]

Well, I probably shouldn't offer any ideas yet, but it is interesting that the barbs are helping you against the Mongols and the Zulus are helping you clean up respawns... I wonder if there is some way to take advantage of that. I got a little help from the hut-barbs against respawns, but on the whole they did more harm than good.

You are at war with Spain and the Zulus, even without boats. I suppose those are bloodless wars started by the foreign ministers - or do your AIs have boats already? I don't recall AIs building any boats in my game, though they all had mapmaking.

You said the Mongols sent a lot of units your way, and I've read similar stories from other players. For some reason, that is quite unusual in my games. I rarely think much about defense - just a little caution approaching their homeland is usually enough.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

You are at war with Spain and the Zulus, even without boats. I suppose those are bloodless wars started by the foreign ministers - or do your AIs have boats already? I don't recall AIs building any boats in my game, though they all had mapmaking.

Exactly. They just declared war because I did not give in to their demands. Such behavior is expected of aggressive Zulu, but rational Spanish surprised me.

You said the Mongols sent a lot of units your way, and I've read similar stories from other players. For some reason, that is quite unusual in my games. I rarely think much about defense - just a little caution approaching their homeland is usually enough.

The units were in their territory. I sent one attack force toward Bokhara which took it over. The other larger attack force went towards Kashgar. There were so many Mongol units around Kashgar, and so many more joined quickly, that by the time I killed them all (10-12) all my elephants were too wounded to carry on.
They did have 1 elephant in my territory but that one came to battle Russians and once the Russians were gone it headed back home along side my army.

 

[URUWASHI]

THanks for a great Map ALI , I enjoyed !
I just finished my game , and it was a long one, ( real time ) due mostly to respawns.
I also build my Capital city one square right of the starting point since I deducted that was a special ( Whale or fish ).
Send my second settlers south and build Pasardage since I knew that was 2 specials ( Bison and fish ), got Horse Back riding as my first tech and created 2 settlers ASAP.
After 4 cities, I created Horse Units in each city and send them to scout the right wing of the Butterfly. Got 3 techs , plus 3 cities and about 300 in gold.
Then proceded to build settlers in each of the 4 cities , and then built a Chariot in each city.
Wiped Moscow ( left Kiev standing ).Unfortunatly Vikings had destroyed Mongol Capital and taken Smarkand , Bokhara was the only mongol city left.
After Vikings took Bokhara I knew I was in trouble.I knew that Lilac had respawned ....somewhere.
But ... getting rid of Mongols allowed me to cross with elephants and take Athens by 500 and Trondheim by AC/BC.Left one Viking City and one Greek city, I want it to locate the respawning area.
I got Navigation before AC , Builded Caravels and sailed to conquer Zulus.
Interesting to me was that no Viking or Greek city was build by the water.
So I had to most of my sailing from the " Russian " corner , south to Zululand.
By 100/200 AD I took Madrid and Zulu Capital.
Then proceded to wipe the last cities of Vikings, Greeks , Russian and Zulu's.
The respawnings were amazing ! Greeks >>-Carthagininas * - English - then GREEK again!! Russians>>- Celts-Roman-Russians-, Vikings >> Germans *- French
Zulu >> Babilonian * - Japanese , Mongols > Indian, Sioux ....with the exception , of the ones with an asterisk ( Taken by others Civs or Barbarians ) I have to find the rest...!! That was time consuming and frustrating.
Changed to Republic by 300 AD , I think that was a big error....
All my cities on the right of the Butterfly and Ex-Viking Cities created nothing but Carvans, so I ended with 12 or so wonders
I still managed to finish by early 1000's, I could have waited another 10 turns and build LEO, STWA, SOL and Library,since I had over 25 Caravans being produced on my last turn , could have finished in Democracy....but I was exhausted after playing for almost 10 consecutive hours.
Also playing in Republic , you get overuled by the Senate if you attack an enemy, so I had to get into revolutions every 20 turns or so...
Now what I found really unusual....I saved my last turn...and then conquered Sioux Capital.....Game Over....Wrote score down , and saved the last Turn...

So a few hours later, I decided to rename the files to be send to GOTM, and then again Move one of my 3 Crusaders that are ready to take take City Capital again.....and the game does not end !! Sioux Respawn ...!
WOWWWWWWWWW
Reload game again...and used ANOTHER Crusader unit to take Capital city ...and game ends !!
How can that happen ??
So I disbanded " THE BAD " Crusader Unit ...used the same unit I used earlier...and the game ends !!
Any Explanations ??

 

[Ali Ardavan]

+0001 to +0500 report:
I reduced Mongols to 1 city as planned. This happened by +0200. At this point I met and offered them peace which has lasted since.

I allied with Vikings (for 50g) against Greeks in 140. Vikings had 1 city near Mongolia and the rest near their homeland. Greeks had more cities but all in their homeland. On my way to Greece they sent a lot of units my way and killed half of my invasion force.

Meanwhile I was busily expanding and making a ton of caravans in the left wing. I had several cities in the vast plain fields which could not grow beyond 2 or 3 due to lack of irrigation and were just dedicated to producing caravans.

Status at +0500
Population: 2.04M; Cities: 38; Trade routes: 6D3F; Government: Monarchy
Finance. Treasury: 100; Cost per turn: 12; Income: 36; Tax rate: 30%
Science: Total advances: 26; Advance every 8 turns; Science rate: 70%
Production: 144MT; 0 polluted tiles
Wonders: Marco, Hanging Gardens, Colossus, Michelangelo, Pyramids.
Units: 27 settlers (1 None), 1 Warrior, 17 Phalanx, 1 Chariot, 9 Elephants (2 None), 5 Crusader, 2 Trireme, 1 Diplomat, 14 Caravans, 1 Explorer.
Russians: Destroyed by me
Celts: Destroyed by Zulu
Romans: Destroyed by Zulu
Celts: 2 cities, 13 tech, 23g; War with me
Zulu: 10 cities, 20 tech, 426g; War with me; Great Library
Vikings: 5 cities, 19 tech, 105g; War with Greeks, Allied with me
Spanish: 6 cities, 12 tech, 542g; War with me
Greeks: 7 cities, 15 tech, 192g; War with Vikings and me
Mongols: 1 cities, 23 tech, 49g;

 

[URUWASHI]

My comments about the game...
Great Map...Im sure that Ali spended several hours working on the map.
But I like to add that the game gets a bet " boring ". after the respawns.
From 200 AD to 1000 AD just looking for new civs..may get boring
I enjoyed the game and took notes until 300 AD ..then it became a bot repetitive.
Again Ali EXELLENT map..but next time my point is...,either is a Deity level , or no respawns.
My point is ..if you are gonna have a game with 3 0r more Civs, Respawns are OK....4 to 7 it gets the get to be boring..depending on the Map.
I spend about 6 hours or real time , looking for the new Civz, by then I have lost the concept about the game itself.
Hope this is creative criticism ...........
Again Ali thanks for the great Map..........I enjoy it.

 

[mr. Y]

I have to concur here, I liked the map, but respawns on takes is too much for me.

My favorite gametype is deity/small map/raging barbs/no bribe so this game has been quite a different one for me. In the beginning I liked it and thought it was going to be a quickie, but now...

It is not really a tactical/strategic game anymore, but more a battle against patience. One turn takes ages with all the units to move - even on automatic. I thought I almost finished the game in 200 AD. I am now in 1600 and fighting the last remaining civ (the original Spanish). Maybe I should have chosen a landing game instead of conquest one.

 

[Ali Ardavan]

Thanks for the praise of the map, Uruwashi and mr. Y.

I realize how frustrating it is for conqueres to deal with Restarts on specially on a large map. I was hoping that knowing the general shape of the world mitigate that. But Restarts off is frustrating for space ship games. Once your key civ is wiped out your research cost goes through the roof.

All this talk about respawns makes me wonder. What happens if you wipe out all your enemies in one turn? Reduce them one by one to one city then wipe them out all at once. Has anyone ever tried that?

 

[Ali Ardavan]

+0500 to +1000 report:

I got tired of Monarchy and switched to Republic in +0620. With my capital at the corner of my empire, corruption was rampant.

I reached first Greek city in +0600 and razed it. The next city was Delphi which was captured in +0740. My invasion force was not large enough for the Greeks. They had Chariots and later Knights. Next turn they put a Knight next to Delphi and asked for peace. I agreed. I am tired of conquest. I know that having captured Delphi I can keep an eye on and contain Greeks.

Research went on to Democracy immediately and Democracy was established in +0860. Next goal: Explosives and Leonardo's.

Status at +1000
Population: 9.81M; Cities: 50; Trade routes: 30D7F; Government: Democracy
Finance. Treasury: 16; Cost per turn: 50; Income: 94; Tax rate: 10%
Science: Total advances: 38; Advance every 2 turns; Science rate: 60%
Production: 315MT; 1 polluted tiles
Wonders: Marco, Hanging Gardens, Colossus, Michelangelo, Pyramids, Copernicus, King Richard
Units: 33 settlers (1 None), 1 Engineer, 1 Warrior, 19 Phalanx, 1 None Legion, 1 Chariot, 5 Elephants (2 None), 6 Crusaders (1 None), 2 Trireme, 2 Diplomat, 12 Caravans, 1 Explorer.
Russians: Destroyed by me
Celts: Destroyed by Zulu
Romans: Destroyed by Zulu
Celts: 3 cities, 17 tech, 72g; War with me, allied with Zulu
Zulu: 10 cities, 32 tech, 632g; Allied with Celts; Great Library, Shakespeare
Vikings: 5 cities, 22 tech, 416g; War with Greeks, allied with me
Spanish: 8 cities, 14 tech, 699g; War with me; Lighthouse
Greeks: 8 cities, 16 tech, 199g; War with Vikings
Mongols: 1 cities, 27 tech, 98g;

 

[Peaster]

@Uruwashi and Mr Y - I also hate restarts for the same reasons you do (and because of the increased luck factor). But even with very bad luck, they should not delay your finish more than 300 years. With MPE you can usually trade maps immediately with each new civ, and then send a hit squad of 2-3 ellies to finish them off, hopefully within 4-5 turns. It helps to have boats + units spread out over the map, especially in the areas with no cities.

@Ali - Restarts have been discussed pretty thoroughly here and at Poly. IMO nobody understands the process very well, but most agree that killing all 6 AI's in one turn does not help. I feel restarts are harmful to most EC games, but unlikely to affect most EL games. In my experience, it is unusual that one AI kills off another, and even more unlikely that the victim is purple. We have had this discussion before, and no one has responded to this point yet.

If there really is some good reason to leave them on, how about a compromise? Leave them on, but a player can declare victory as soon as the original 6 opponents are gone.

 

[Ace]

AI civs do kill each other off. I have seen this occur quite regularly over the years. IIRC, the most killed in one game was 4 by the others but that could be off by +/- 1. I don't keep track of it, but I do remember that phrase coming up quite often in the early part of the game " blank civ destroyed by the blank!"

As to the purple civ, I have much less data since I play the purple, except for GOTMs, because of the boost to science. Or more correctly, the lack of penalties since purple is your key civ when your supreme, therefore, its good to be your own key civ.