GOTM55 Spoiler

Discussion in 'Civ2 - Game of the Month' started by Ali Ardavan, Aug 6, 2005.

  1. URUWASHI

    URUWASHI Warlord

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    ALI ,
    '" What happens if you wipe out all your enemies in one turn? Reduce them one by one to one city then wipe them out all at once. Has anyone ever tried that?"'

    Yes, I have , thats why I eliminate all Capital cities like on game 55 and leave one city from each civilization.THats my MO ALI , I take every Capital City , leaving one city left......( Scroll up and read my post )

    Problem is , respawinings will ocur until 1400-1450 ,then after that turn it will be no more respawnings.

    Game 55 , I took very early ... Moscow, Athens , and Trondhiem all BC . Then Madrid and Zulu'sCapital before 200 AC, then wiped out each city left . by 200 / 300 AD hoping the respawing civs will destroy themselves .

    I know that next time I need to take a different approach.
    Destroy Capital cities , and keep one city from each civ , then avoid respawning.
    Wait until 1400 and conquer all cities without using Armies ...( IE Bribe them )

    Then Go for Democracy and Go for Early Landing Conquest.

    The problem on game 55 it was a never ending respawning...I have never seen....White turn 4 times , so did Orange..........and LIlac.....I destroyed Athens TWICE........and the Russians Twice......I counted 17 respawings.

    Again by the time I finished.......I was so exhausted , and tired. that I have lost feeling for the game.

    But Im an old Man...... :), so I get tired easily........LOL
    Again ecxellent Map ........Great work , OUstanding lay out...but at one point the game becamed Tedious.
     
  2. mr. Y

    mr. Y Warlord

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    Well, I just submitted. In the end it took me until 1754... :S And still I seem to have been lucky compared to you guys; I counted 'only' 7 respawns, 2 of which were wiped out by AI. In the end I squeezed out a few wonders just because I could and to try and lift my score.

    This is not correct. I finished off the last AI city (Spanish) in 1750 and thought that was it, but the next turn the Egyptians popped up, LUCKILY on the same island and only a few spots from my main army. The penultimate respawn took place in 1570.

    Why would you specifically use diplomats for that?
    I know what I would do next time: let the AI figure it out and go for space as fast as possible.
     
  3. Peaster

    Peaster Emperor

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    Probably the best source of info on respawns is La Fayette's thread at 'Poly (though many questions are still not answered):

    http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=106281

    IIRC respawns end by 1500AD at Deity... maybe 1750AD (?) at Emperor, etc. There is no evidence that killing all the civs in one turn helps. Or that bribery works better than force. The basic anti-respawn ideas are - MPE for maps, a large navy, and killing off new respawns quickly. I offer more ideas in my EC guide.

    IMO the respawn madness should not last more than 15 turns. AFAIK the worst cases have been about 18 - 20 respawns per game. With good preparation for the respawn madness phase, you can usually kill off 1 or 2 per turn. Of course, this is still pretty frustrating for an EC player.

    @Ace: I estimate that one AI wipes out another AI in less than one third of my games with restarts off. The key civ is lost this way in less than 1 of 10 games. If any EL players disagree... how many of your GOTMs have been ruined this way?
     
  4. The BMC

    The BMC Chieftain

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    The strangest thing happened to me while playing through this game. It's probably been witnessed before by some people here, but it was the first time I'd ever seen it happen. I was wandering all the way to the west coast with four caravans, when the mongols sneak attacked me. The caravans had already passed Mongol territory to the west and were exploring the Greek territory. The Mongols and Greeks allied against me, so my treaty with the Greeks had reset to "contact", apparently.

    The greeks demanded that I give them Leadership. I refused, and they reply "We grow weary of your insolence. Consider yourself warned". Then I asked for peace, and they declared war on me for that!

    Of course, just a few turns later, the Greeks call me up again looking for peace, even though there was never a single attack made upon either of us. I was able to talk them into handing me 600 gold for the cease fire and another 250 for the treaty to make it worth my while, and all was well.
     
  5. URUWASHI

    URUWASHI Warlord

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    About respawnings and when they end, I have allways belived that 1400-1450 was the end of restarts.It allways happens on deity level....
    Maybe is a minimum amount of respawnings ??

    I did that on game 49 or 51 ( the one with simplified combat ...grrrrrr ) and I kept one city from Celts, Greeks , Mongols , Spanish , Zulu's etc. and in one turn I took them all using diplomats, and the game was over.....no respawns.

    Maybe was a lucky move, Im not certain.

    Mr Y you asked me , Why will I use diplomats to take the last cities ?
    Well If you are in Republic or Democracy , you may be overrueld by the senate to wage war, unless attacked first.

    IF I would have play game 55 differently...I had built SOL , and change to Soft Fundy...save money for about 10 turns, Im sure that I could earn about 400-600 per turn or about 5000 gold in 10 turns.....THEN would have changed to Democracy, buy the necessary improvements for cities , and then try to get my reputation ( Atrocious ) to a better level. Kept the 6 AI cities to trade and keep them as puppets.

    Since I have never played en Early Landing game ( still have no idea, how many parts or what parts are needed to build a spaceship ..is it better to send 10.000 or 50.000 colonists ? ), I knew that this will take another 6 or 8 hours of play...and I was not ready to spend another 6 or 8 hours......

    Peaster mentions that having the MP helps to locate the other AI's Civz, And its true except I had such an bad reputation that nobody was willing to exchanged maps.....IF I had knew earlier the respawning Zone ( 13 respawns happen in East Zulu and North Zulu , the rest in East Spain and one in small Island...) I would have invaded Zululand from South West of the Butterfly and From South East....., I was betting most spawnings will occur on Spanish Land.....
    That happened to the Spanish Armada when they tried to Invade England ...ohh well!!!!!
     
  6. Peaster

    Peaster Emperor

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    I have not played past 1100AD in over a year ;) , so I cannot argue, but I think the consensus of other experienced players is 1500AD on Deity. If you are interested enough, you could test this pretty easily. Or read the threads to see if you believe them.

    Not sure. That would make the whole thing more fair. But IIRC I once had a game with only one respawn (Deity, 7 civs), so I doubt it.

    Again, I can only say that expert players in other threads don't believe this works. But it's hard to believe you had that much luck. Could this have happened after 1500AD ?

    This is something I know almost nothing about. You mean the Senate will not overrule diplomatic actions, such as inciting a riot?


    This sounds A LOT like my game. I built a city in North Zulu (around 100BC?) to contain the respawn zone a little. Also, the last Zulu city was near the SE corner, so I had units heading into that area anyway. I also built cities on the island and in eastern Spain just to keep respawns away. Many occured in the butterfly's tail, but I had many troops waiting there by 1AD. The hardest area to reach was East Zulu.

    If I played this again, I would keep a better rep.
     
  7. URUWASHI

    URUWASHI Warlord

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    Peaster "This is something I know almost nothing about. You mean the Senate will not overrule diplomatic actions, such as inciting a riot? "

    The senate will overrule an attack in most cases against a respawning Civ, if you are in Republic or Democracy.
    Also they may overrule an attack IF the other civ ( the one you are attacking ) wants to have a Cease Fire etc.

    My point is that , any opponent cities , of any civilization that have NO Palace are easy to be subverted ...for the right price.
    For instance if you try to Subvert Kiev from the Russians and they have no Capital , you will get a message...IE" Kiev Residents will riot for 300 " May Cause incident........or a second option : Citizens will riot for X2 = 600 ( Causes no incident )...........if you " Buy " the city for 300 , in a Democracy or Republic your civilization will get into Anarchy , caused by International Incident .
    If you buy it for 600 , the city will join your civilization and your reputation will not be affected.

    I have subverted cities that still had a Palace, but largest city , near their Palace , depending on number of citizens will have a higher price.
    Thats why sometimes I find usefull to build SOL and get into SOFT Fundy, for 10 or 20 turns and amass 10000 or 15000 in a few turns, before switching to Democracy

    Regarding the Game I ended in 1400 or so ( when I used all diplomats to subvert all 5 or 6 cities Left , one from each civilization. )...I could look at the save..hopefully I had that saved....but I am sure that was not later than 1450. In addition I think I went thru 2 respawnings ,BEFORE 1400 , so again Maybe is a minmum ammount of respawnings.........
     
  8. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    +1000 to +1500 report. A period of huge population growth, expansion, significant tech advance, and wonder building.

    In +1120 the first universities were built. Much caravan trade took place in this period; most of it domestic, some with Greeks, a few with Zulu. First shipment of freights to Zulu was less than successful: only one of 4 made it; the other 3 were killed.

    Low level warfare with Greeks and Vikings continued. Small cities on both sides were razed. I captured one Greek city and bought a Viking one. Vikings and Greeks ended their war.

    Status at +1500
    Population: 23.52M; Cities: 63; Trade routes: 63D10F; Government: Democracy
    Finance. Treasury: 59; Cost per turn: 92; Income: 396; Tax rate: 20%
    Science: Total advances: 54; Advance every 2 turns; Science rate: 40%
    Production: 459MT; 0 polluted tiles
    Wonders: Marco, Hanging Gardens, Colossus, Michelangelo, Pyramids, Copernicus, King Richard, Leonardo, Adam Smith, Magellan, Newton.
    Units: 35 Engineers (1 None), 30 Musketeers (1 None), 10 Crusaders (3 None), 2 Transports, 1 Diplomat, 16 Freight, 1 Explorer.
    Russians: Destroyed by me
    Celts: Destroyed by Zulu
    Romans: Destroyed by Zulu
    Celts: 4 cities, 25 tech, 133g; Allied with Zulu
    Zulu: 13 cities, 37 tech, 652g; Allied with Celts; Great Library, Shakespeare
    Vikings: 6 cities, 25 tech, 427g; Great Wall
    Spanish: 12 cities, 16 tech, 1069g; War with me; Lighthouse
    Greeks: 7 cities, 20 tech, 528g; War with me; Sun Tzu
    Mongols: 2 cities, 42 tech, 163g;
     
  9. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    Another 6 to 8 hours? You obviously have not played landing games. Late in the game you will be spending 30 - 60 minutes per turn. I have played to 1730 now and my per turn time is just short of 1 hour. I am not close to being done either; I am researching flight this turn. Of course, my game has not been a purely landing game and this map is humongous both of which make things take longer.
     
  10. EmperorGandalf

    EmperorGandalf Wizard

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    My game is now 1800, and i have finally disposed my continent of all but the germans (they popped up when i destroyed the vikings, i think) I am not used to restarts being on, and it is annoying for new civs to keep on popping up in the middle of my territory. i find it doubtful that i can win by conquest or spaceship; although i have more tech than other civs, i dont have very good military techs (maybe im just too used to using units such as tanks and helicopters) and i am a long way from making spaceship. I only have three wonders; gardens, leonardo, and michelangelo, and am unable to build any at the moment. unfortunately i have not built a navy or many armies, and have been unable to land and stay on other shores. if i get to build a spaceship, ill probably have to do a small one.
    I still am enjoying it though, and nice map!
     
  11. la fayette

    la fayette King

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    Restarts?
    O no! Not with such a beautiful butterfly :)
    This requires at least a big space ship...
    = safe landing in 1549.
     
  12. EmperorGandalf

    EmperorGandalf Wizard

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    La Fayette? did u just say u landed a spaceship in 1549 ?!?!? its about 1910 for me and i still haven't discovered a single tech for spaceship, and i'm usually good at research (or maybe not. i should probably get more practice at high difficulty games. mostly ive only played up to the 4th difficulty level.)
    I feel so pathetic around you people with all these early conquests and spaceships.
     
  13. la fayette

    la fayette King

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    Yes I did :) (and it was the biggest possible SS, the one with 40 000 colonists onboard)...
    ... and there are at least 3 players who would certainly land much earlier if they had a try, namely solo, Zenon and stuporman.

    Have you read solo's guide ?
    Here is a link:

    http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=82209

    You cannot expect to launch an early spaceship without having read that guide and played several games after that, in order to master high speed research, which is the key to that kind of games.

    If you are interested, just let me know: I am ready to share my experience and try to help you improve your gameplay.
     
  14. mr. Y

    mr. Y Warlord

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    I am interested. I already read the excellent guide by Solo. I tried for an early landing last month but didn't make it until somewhere in the late 1800's I vaguely remember. I also replayed last months' GOTM and the one before that a couple of times, and the most important questions I have are:

    - Do you stick to the 10 settlements Solo recommends or build more?
    - At what point do you start building caravans in your helper cities (what improvements are present at that point) and do you save them for wonders or send them off to the nearest enemy civ immediately?
    - Do you use internal trade, does the distance to the nearest civs influence that decision?
    - Do you build colosseums?
    - If salt tastes 'salty', why does sugar taste 'sweet' and not 'sugary'?

    thanks,

    mr. Y
     
  15. la fayette

    la fayette King

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    1) There is a big difference between an early landing game and a GOTM: the scoring system of the GOTM is such that you will get a much better score if you land later but with a much bigger civ. I am going to reply about early landing, not big GOTM score.

    2) I stick to 8 cities in Republic and 10 in Democracy (apart from some "space ship contractors" that get built very few turns before launching the space ship).

    3) I start building caravans as soon as I get Trade. There are usually NO improvements at all in any of my cities when this happens. Most of these caravans are used to build early wonders (I almost never send an early caravan anywhere by land; if one is sent to a foreign city, it is onboard a trireme).

    4) No internal trade in the early game, except if the SSC needs a trade route and no foreign city is available (but this happens very seldom, since I build Marco in almost any game).

    5) I build colosseums sometimes (in games where I haven't built the Gardens or Mike, but I confess that I don't always follow solo's advice, since The Gardens and Mike are so cheap and so powerful).

    6) Your question about "salty" should be asked a native speaker ;)
     
  16. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    +1500 to +1750 report. A period of huge population growth, minor warfare in butterfly, significant tech advance, and wonder building.

    All urgently needed wonders were built in this period. There was much expansion in trade and most of it lucrative foreign offshore trade. The number of my foreign trade routes quadrupled. This gave a huge boost to my research allowing me to get two techs in one turn in 1690 for the first time and then many times after.

    Low level warfare with Greeks continued. Low level warfare with Vikings started following their sneak attack in 1690. In +1700 Celts offered alliance against Greeks for 100g. I accepted. Mongols were kept under a close watch and frequently given all but one tech. This took them to worshipful but still not interested in an alliance; maybe because of my dishonorable reputation. Barbarians took Mongol Nishapur. Good thing they built a second city and I let them keep it; or they would have been wiped out. Mongol partisans take Nishapur back, but now it is size 1.

    Status at +1750
    Population: 81.16M; Cities: 68; Trade routes: 73D42F; Government: Democracy
    Finance. Treasury: 1; Cost per turn: 467; Income: 1257; Tax rate: 20%
    Science: Total advances: 80; Advance every 1 turns; Science rate: 40%
    Production: 1222MT; 5 polluted tiles
    Wonders: Marco, Hanging Gardens, Colossus, Michelangelo, Pyramids, Copernicus, King Richard, Leonardo, Adam Smith, Magellan, Newton, Cure for Cancer, Bach, Hoover dam, SETI.
    Units: 1 None Settler, 59 Engineers (1 None), 1 Alpine, 38 Riflemen (1 None), 1 Mech Inf., 9 Cavalry (2 None), 1 Armor, 2 Transports, 3 Spy, 17 Freight, 1 Explorer.
    Russians: Destroyed by me
    Celts: Destroyed by Zulu
    Romans: Destroyed by Zulu
    Celts: No embassy; Allied with me
    Zulu: No embassy; ; Great Library, Shakespeare, Eiffel
    Vikings: No embassy; War with me; Great Wall
    Spanish: No embassy; ; Lighthouse
    Greeks: 8 cities, 25 tech, 786g; War with me; Sun Tzu
    Mongols: 2 cities, 78 tech, 280g;
     
  17. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    Three interesting observations in this game so far:

    1. I have built about half a dozen Uranium freights. Typically I get none. It must be something about this map. They were all available in landlocked cities surrounded by plains and desert. Unfortunately, there is no foreign demand for these so they were all delivered domestically.

    2. When I was about to take over the final Greek city, I sent a spy in and observed it carefully. There was a settler next to the city but it was not supported by the city. I bribed the city and got the settler as well; but now it is supported by the city?! I have never seen this behavior before.

    3. Viking Cannon which is next to my tank and freight chooses to kill my freight! I have never seen the AI attack a trade unit when it can attack a military one.
     
  18. Ali Ardavan

    Ali Ardavan Mathematician Moderator Civ2 GOTM Staff

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    +1750 to +1800 report. A period of increased warfare, consolidation of power in the butterfly, first offshore colonies, expansion of domestic trade and wonder building.

    The 5x5 island was finally settled in +1758. The first future tech was discovered in +1766. Domestic trade expanded significantly partially due to lack of foreign demand for commodities like Oil and Uranium. A wonder rush starts with Celts and Zulu. I build UN and Apollo because I wanted to; Darwin to keep it off others hands; and Oracle because Celts beat me to Statue of Liberty. All wonders but Manhattan are now built.

    Space race starts in +1796 (the turn after Apollo is built) with the building of 2 components and 1 module. But then it cools off as no one else joins the race.

    With the tech advances well into future techs, pollution becomes a significant problem. Several turns late in this period started with the number of polluted tiles in teens.

    Warfare expanded to include all the AI except Celts. The wars against Greeks and Vikings are offensive, the rest defensive. Many of them ally against me. Senate keeps giving them peace every time, especially before UN. Then they sneak attack in the next turn or two. Greatest military loss was caused by a well coordinated Greek sneak attack on multiple fronts that resulted in the loss of one recently taken over Greek city and 4 units: Musketeer, Dragoon, Engineer, None settler.

    Once Mongol partisans start pillaging, I realize that I need a new plan for Mongol containment. I kill all their units and take over their coastal city of Nishapur leaving them with just one city and no units. Then I give them all techs but Superconductor; yes even Mobile Warfare. Their remaining city is landlocked, surrounded by my cities, and has limited opportunity for growth.

    Vikings and Greeks steal several techs and get Space flight, Plastics, and Fusion Power. This is scary as I do not want to get into a tight space race.

    In +1770 Zulu unload 3 units in the butterfly tail: Cannon, Crusader and Caravan. They eventually deliver their caravan to my city of Lisbon. Their other units are killed immediately. They try some coastal bombardments and then they give up.

    In +1788 Spanish declare war when I ask them to remove their troops in the part of Greece which is now mine. I kill their unit and they ally with Zulu against me.

    Status at +1800
    Population: 126.52M; Cities: 90; Trade routes: 132D53F; Government: Democracy
    Finance. Treasury: 466; Cost per turn: 1300; Income: 1729; Tax rate: 10%
    Science: Total advances: 88+28F; Advance every 1 turns; Science rate: 50%
    Production: 2292MT; 8 polluted tiles
    Wonders: Marco, Hanging Gardens, Colossus, Michelangelo, Pyramids, Copernicus, King Richard, Leonardo, Adam Smith, Magellan, Newton, Cure for Cancer, Bach, Hoover dam, SETI, Darwin, UN, Oracle, Apollo.
    Units: 57 Engineers (1 None), 1 Partisan, 1 Alpine, 44 Riflemen (1 None), 8 Mech Inf., 6 Cavalry (2 None), 5 Armor, 1 Helicopter, 4 Stealth Bomber, 2 Transports, 8 Spy, 13 Freight, 1 Explorer.
    Russians: Destroyed by me
    Celts: Destroyed by Zulu
    Romans: Destroyed by Zulu
    Celts: 5 cities, 37 tech, 189g; Allied with me and Zulu; Statue of Liberty.
    Zulu: 18 cities, 54 tech, 1936g; Allied with Celts & Spanish, war with me; Great Library, Shakespeare, Eiffel, Suffrage
    Vikings: 3 cities, 39 tech, 639g; War with me; Great Wall
    Spanish: 16 cities, 40 tech, 2150g; Allied with Zulu & Greeks; Lighthouse
    Greeks: 1 cities, 39 tech, 395g; Allied with Spanish, war with me; Sun Tzu
    Mongols: 1 cities, 87 tech, 280g; War with me.
     
  19. grigor

    grigor Prince

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    I had a lot of trouble with this map. It was a lot bigger than I thought. I felt pretty good getting Trade from a hut in 1800BC, HG at 1350, LH in 950, and even better when I wiped out the Russians in 100BC with NO RESPAWN! (MPE in 75BC) But the logistics of just getting around were beyond my ability to anticipate. And I miscalculated badly on the potential for beakers from Trade. THe foreign civs were so trade-poor that no caravans delivered more than 96g. I ended up conquering in 1480AD (fortunately just before Lafayette landed...) with a supersize civilization in soft Fundy. Once I got there it was fairly efficient, but the Middle Ages were as dark as real life.

    Peaster - what a result!!
     
  20. Peaster

    Peaster Emperor

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    Tx Grigor. BTW - I was curious what you would do with gotm54 (Ali's concentric arc map) - did you play it??
     

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