GOTM75 - Final Spoiler

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GOTM 75 Final Spoiler - Game Submitted



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What victory condition did your Vikings pursue? Any significant problems?
 
swordsman_small.gif

predator, diplomatic.


My initial idea was to claim the remnant of Arabia, then proceed against Greece. This way i would have freed the MPs in the 2nd core, collect the 3 remaining luxuries and (hopefully) generate a leader.

Too bad i discovered that my trade reputation against Arabia was toast. How? I don't know. In the whole game i never bought hard stuff for per-turn payments, exactly because i didn't want to lose the ability of buying techs for gpt.

To check out things, i saved the current turn and loaded the turn before war with Arabia had begun (10 AD). My trade reputation is clean at this point. There's a RoP (which i didn't exploit) and a trade in which they are paying gpt for a tech. For what i know, losing the trade rep would require the exact opposite.

Well, guess what? If i declare war, i lose the trade reputation. D'uh.

Anyway, lesson learned. If you sell the AS hard goods for a per-turn payment and broke the deal, you suffer a rep hit as well.

----

Back with the game now. Those were the AS picks:
- Greece: Medicine
- Germany: Steam Power
- Russia: Steam Power


To be able to buy Fission later i must keep Arabia alive then have the right scientific AS to declare on them so they'll forgive my "ghost" betrayal. The consequence is that Greece must be kept alive as well.

Or else i could declare on Arabia, have Greece and Russia declare on them (gpt), buy Medicine and Steam (waaay more gpt), then declare immediately on both, thus marking myself as the world villain. This looks like the simplest choice, but 1) there are likely to be Arabian settlers wandering and 2) Mecca is for the most part Arabian.

Too much war and too few units to settle this thing quickly (not counting the attitude issues). So i went that way:

_540AD: Nationalism (research); Steam Power, Medicine (trade, Germany);

What now? I desperately need worker power, there's too much to do on the 2nd core. We'll bet on Industrialization, usually a good pick for the AS

_610AD: Electricity (research);
_670AD: Replaceable Parts (research); Military Tradition (trade, Egypt);
_710AD: Scientific Method (research);

Meanwhile i had waged war on Greece, seized the luxuries and obtained the leader, thanks to my all-elite force. Greece was actually a whimp. They were badly hit by the barbarian uprisings at the start of Middle Ages and never recovered. Their land was for the most part still unroaded, and the uprisings of the Industrial Ages made things even worse. So there wasn't anything to expect from them in terms of research assistance. Alex is left playing OCC in a southern town.

No one has researched Industrialization yet, and this is more than a nuisance. The leader was initially intended to rush Evolution ASAP and claim Atomic Theory and Electronics for free. I could still do it, but that would delay the building of Commercial Docks and neglect the chance to get Flight from the AS. So i decided to build Evolution with the prebuild and keep the leader for rushing the UN.

The lack of Industrialization after 23 turns should have sounded like an alarm bell. Too bad i ignored it:

_780AD: Atomic Theory (research);
_790AD: Industrialization (trade, Germany);
_820AD: Sanitation (research);

And now full steam ahead toward Combustion:

_860AD: Corporation (research);
_900AD: Steel (research); Refining, Combustion (ToE); Democracy (trade, India);

That's when i became seriously worried. The AS were way too slow in researching the optional part. But by then it was too late:

_940AD: Mass Production (research);
_980AD: Communism (trade, India); Navigation (trade, Germany);
_990AD: Electronics (research);
1030AD: Motorized Transportation (research);
1070AD: Radio (research);

No signs of Flight. The AS went for Economics and Free Artistry instead. And so the disaster is complete.

1100AD: Economics, Free Artistry (trade, India);
1110AD: Flight (research);

Gifted the AS, declared on Arabia, turned everyone against them, bought Fission, rushed the UN. End result: a non-exceptional diplomatic victory in 1120AD. Firaxis: 5476. Jasons: 8879.


Final comments

Sanitation was actually a good pick. When you own the Pyramids and there are some cities that could grow way beyond size 12, hospitals are your best scientific buildings. Mecca nearly doubled its scientific outcome:

gotm75-endia.jpg


Apart from that, my strategy was a complete screwup. The turns saved in buying Fission were offsetted by the turns spent in researching Nationalism, and the attempt to get Flight from the AS resulted in negating the benefits of buying Industrialization.

With hindsight, it would have been better to simply buy the bonus techs with gpt, declare, forget the idea of buying Fisson and live with the penalty issues. Greece and Arabia could have been easily purged, leaving only one AS seriously against me (Russia). And of course i should have spent the leader immediately on Evolution, pick the canonical Atomic Theory and Electronics and go along without thinking about AS assistance.

Being creative does work... sometimes. And sometimes it does not. You never know.
 
Too bad i discovered that my trade reputation against Arabia was toast. How? I don't know. In the whole game i never bought hard stuff for per-turn payments, exactly because i didn't want to lose the ability of buying techs for gpt.

To check out things, i saved the current turn and loaded the turn before war with Arabia had begun (10 AD). My trade reputation is clean at this point. There's a RoP (which i didn't exploit) and a trade in which they are paying gpt for a tech. For what i know, losing the trade rep would require the exact opposite.

Well, guess what? If i declare war, i lose the trade reputation. D'uh.

Anyway, lesson learned. If you sell the AS hard goods for a per-turn payment and broke the deal, you suffer a rep hit as well.

My guess is that declaring war while there is an active RoP (even if you didn't have troops in AI territory) is the same as breaking a deal of per turn goods for per turn goods.
 
My guess is that declaring war while there is an active RoP (even if you didn't have troops in AI territory) is the same as breaking a deal of per turn goods for per turn goods.

Could be... although i cannot grasp the logic behind such a rule.
 
Every contract where you commit yourself for 20 turns will trash your trade reputation, if you declare war. RoP, peace, alliance, embargo, MPP will do it as well as the better known gpt or resource trades.
 
Well, good news at least: I won. That ends the good news, I'm guessing.

Conquest, spaceship victory, 1963 AD. (Don't mock me!)

Things actually went fairly decently after my last post (which I now see I forgot to finish). Memorable highlights:

1435 was the official entry into the IA, with the discovery of Magnetism.

1505 was amusing, sort of: the Aztecs, stranded in a crappy size 2 city in the midst of the southern tundra mountains, declare war on me. I'd picked up a city from the Indians on that island, and fortified it with a couple spearmen in city walls (wasn't quite sure what I wanted it for, but kept it). One longbowman put them both down pretty easily, and the Aztecs took the city. Of course, at that point I had a galleon with two cavalry and two berserkers headed back down to retake the city and remove the Aztecs for their impudence.

1525: Discovered Medicine. Nobody else has Medicine. Sweet. Trade Medicine to Greece for Democracy, 50 gold, and 100 (!!) gpt. Medicine to Arabia for Steam Power and 250 gold. Medicine + 450 gold to Egypt for Free Artistry and Industrialization. Wasn't able to pry Nationalism from anyone, yet. Set research to Sanitation to get some bigger cities and to hopefully have another monopoly tech to trade.

1565: Discover Sanitation. Unfortunately, it's not good for getting Nationalism or anything else up there. Oh well. Going toward Scientific Method to try to get Theory of Evolution.

1570: Elite Cavalry whups fourth Aztec spearman, generates great leader. That galleon picks him up and heads for the home island, waiting for ToE. Buh-bye Aztecs.

1590: Tromsoe flips to Germany on the island next to Egypt. Bummer.

1650: Got to Scientific Method first, yay. Switch Universal Suffrage build to Theory of Evolution. Insta build, and I still have a leader. Nice.

1655: ToE built. Took Replaceable Parts (finding 3 rubber already hooked up) and Atomic theory. (I wanted some good defensive units in case anyone got uppity). Scientific Method and Atomic Theory netted me Nationalism, Espionage, Communism, The corporation, and 27 gpt from Arabia. Scientific Method got me 44 gpt + 19 gold + world map (whee) from Egypt. Nobody else had anything worth getting.

1660: Used leader to rush Palace in Snagnarst (since FP was already in Linkoping.) I don't know if this was the best spot for it but it was decent enough, and gpt went from +90 to +151.

1725: Research Electronics. Trade it to Egypt for Refining, Steel, 45 gpt, and 37 gold. Science set to zero--it's time to take on the German Army.

1730: DOW Germany. Berserker boats assault four German cities on the island near Egypt (I didn't want any accidents there). Capture two (including the one that flipped earlier), burn two. Also took Brandenburg out of the belly of my territory--that was going to be a thorn in my side. And thus a third civilization had a city ripped from them in that same spot. I finally have learned my lesson though, and settle it pretty quickly. I also bomb the heck out of a couple other German cities.

1735: The Germans counterattack, taking out some conscripted infantry speed bumps, losing a bunch of units, and taking no cities. 1735 and 1740 were bad years for Germany. It would have been worse, but one redlined rifleman took out about 13 hp worth of cavalry by itself or Munich would have been mine in 1745.

1756: Germans sneaked through Arabia's border with me and captured a worker! Oh noes! Elite Cavalry goes to clean up, generates Great Leader #3. Hoover Dam was built in nearby Smolensk.

1764-66: War weariness is becoming a significant issue--lux slider at 50% and still having some problems. Fortunately, Berlin is in my sights, and they have Universal Suffrage, which I desperately want. They also have the Oracle and Hanging Gardens (whoop de doo), making Berlin the #1 city on the F11 button.

1776: Finally!!!! take Berlin. About damn time. RNG garbage, grumble grumble. At one point 13 straight artillery units whiffed completely. Also had one redlined infantry hold off three veteran cav units (promoting once; artillery immediately knocked it back down to 1 hp). It's about time for peace with Germany (for now).

1784: Egypt DOW on me. Ooookay. They're over there, I'm over here. Though Egyptian destroyers in the waters do make me a bit nervous.

1786: Egypt may have miscalculated:
1786Egyptwar.JPG


The war efforts consist of watching my shore bombarded by Egyptian warboats, crushing a couple of minor cavalry landings, and watching the Egyptian army tear through the Iroquois like their casino had a free shrimp buffet. Everyone else was also in Communism, which was nice to see.

1812: For the first time in the game, I am finally ahead on score:
1812finallywinning.JPG


1830-ish: Make peace. Everyone else had, basically. Time to re-crush some more of Germany.

1870-80: Crush Germany, and while I'm up there Russia as well.

After that I was well ahead on tech in the modern ages (though I had to pry Computers out of Greece with like four techs), and it was just a matter of getting the ship built. I launched in 1963:
1963victoryismine.JPG


More screenshots later if I have time.
 
Well, I started this one with the best of intentions. Tried to rocket to MM, which I did, only to find most of the others already had it and most of the land was already taken. Got a foothold across the straights between India and Russia. Then 2 cities near Arabia. Just when things were going good Arabia declares on me and convinces just about everyone else to. I used amphibious denial to keep them off my island, but lost everything else. Got way behind in techs, missed Great Library by 4 turns or so. As the game grew late, I used my earlier era units to take the Great Library from India (ROP betrayal). Kept it for a few turns, it brought me closer to most of the Civs, but Arabia, India, and Egypt were an era ahead.What allowed me to get closer was they started attacking each other. I poured on infrastructure, and got my Literacy rate up to 99%, switched to Democracy. Was finally able to secure 3 or 4 cities on former lands of India and built the FP in about 1950AD! Was beaten to the UN. Only real option left was Space Race. It was a race to be sure, eventually became the tech leader. The end came to fast, at 2050AD I was 4 turns from Launching.:cry:
 
I was completely unable to establish a strong foothold on the main continent during the entire game. I was able to conquer most of Russia but India and Arabia eventually booted me off completely. I captured the GL in Arabia for 2 turns to catch up to the advanced AI's. I switched to Democracy and set my research at 90% the entire Industrial Age. Somehow with only 6-7 cities I was able to keep up with the bigger warring civs. In the Modern Age I became the tech leader and launched my spaceshp in 2049! :) It is definately not a good win (only about 700 Jason) but much better than losing.
 
Predator, going for Diplomatic.
And up against none other than tR1cKy. Let's see how I compare.


The Ancient Ages

Scout north, worker south, decide to settle SW of start position. I build a scout(because I wanted to believe that expansionist could be useful!), then a granary. Nidaros then builds settlers and warriors, eventually sticking to an 8 turn settler+warrior factory.

I decide to settle the island quite tightly. My first three cities grab the bonus food tiles, then I fill in the rcp3(4 cities), and by 975bc I have 13 cities on the island.

Research goes as quickly as possible:Alphabet, Writing Map Making, COL, Philosophy, Republic. I make contact with India's continent around 1200, and Greece's around 1100. Republic comes in 550BC, and I research Currency and Construction and go medieval in 390BC. Germany gets Monotheism, and the other two scis get Feudalism. I buy Feudalism with Republic.

Around 450BC, Arabia DOW me, as I have a small millitary and a city on next to them. I don't hold the city, but I do(my first attempt at WH fishing) sign Iros, Rome, Greece and Aztecs into MAs against Arabia. I succeed in getting WH for a while from Iros and for almost all of the rest of the game from Rome. But I mess up later, making peace which breaks an alliance with the Aztecs.:mad:

To compare with tR1cKy: I enter the MA quite a bit later(390BC-610BC=11 turns different), and he's already up Invention and Feudalism! He managed to get two techs from huts and could trade for Currency and Construction!


The Middle Ages

Having read tR1cKy's first spoiler, I considered switching to Space Race, but decided to stick at the Diplomatic attempt. And afterall there was no guarantee that either of us would actually get elected as Secretary-General.:lol:

To begin with I build lots of Libraries and Harbours and Aqueducts. I also finish the Forbidden Planet(sorry Palace!) in 250BC, in the same place as klarius built his Capital.

Research goes Engineering(with which I trade for Monotheism), Invention and then Theology in 10AD. Meanwhile 5 productive cities start to build Beserks. Their first taste of battle is to liberate Qitaimjorg, a city just across the sea from the diamond-laden tip of our island, triggering a GA.

The research boost gives me Education(4 turns-90AD), Astronomy(5-190AD), Gunpowder(4-260AD), Banking(4-300AD), Chemistry(5-350AD), concluding the GA.

Meanwhile I decide my Beserks should find new lands to join the Scandinavian cause. My first target is India. Unlike tR1cKy, I decided against attacking Arabia because I hoped they would be a more useful trading partner left alive. The war started in 190AD and lasted until 350AD(14 turns), yielding me all 9 cities on the mainland plus 3 more island cities in the peace treaty. The vast majority of the fighting was done by amphibious landings from two galleys, which sailed all the way around India's coastline. This was my first war ever using Beserks and I have to say they impressed me greatly. I lost just one in the Indian war, and had 5 promoted to Elite status. One of whom was kind enough to give me a leader. Which rushed a palace in Calcutta in 380AD(in a nice central position on the shores of a big freshwater lake).

I ended the MA with a war against Russia, leaving them with just one city on the other side of Germany. This war gave a second leader, with which I rushed Newton's in 490AD in the FP city(which had built Copernicus' in 320AD)Between 350 and 530 I researched the remaining techs-Physics, Metallurgy, Gravity and Magnetism(18 turns overall).


The Industrial Ages

I gift the scientific civs up and they get Nationalism*2 and Medicine. tR1cKy entered the IA in 480AD. So I'd cut his lead from 11 turns to only 5. I still got nothing useful from the AI, while he got Theology, Engineering and a turn on Metalurgy. I however must have had more total beakers;) . In a diplomatic game, a five turn lead can easily be lost if no sci civ gets Fission, so it seemed to me that I was in with a real chance of catching tR1cKy.

During the Industrial Age I continued to develop my cities, with lots of railing, univesities in the Indina/Russian core etc. The Empire's population doubled at least(quadrupled according to the Demographics), with productive cities all getting to size 12. I destroyed India and Russia, took a city from Rome(leaving them with but one in the southern tundra), and took a couple from Greece. Arabia attacked again, and after losing a city briefly I managed to push them back, generating another leader:mad: :cry: . Still only optional techs given by AIs. Having trashed my gpt reputation, I realised that I would not be able to buy fission, so decided to time TOE to get Fission for free.

Techs:
Steam Power(5 turns-580AD)
Industrialisation(5-630AD)
Corporation(4-670AD)
Electricity(5-720AD)
Theory of Evolution(4-760AD, all the rest in four turns)
Steel
Replaceable Parts
Refining
Combustion
Mass Production
Flight
Atomic Theory
Electronics(1080)

So I get to 1110AD. I get everyone I can into MA versus Cleo, who will be the other UN candidate. Motorized Transportation is 1 turn away. Nidaros is due to finish TOE in 1 turn. Then comes my mistake: I rush a palace in Bjoergvin using a great leader. I end the turn. Research Motorized Transportation, build TOE, get radio for free, get fission for free. Then I right click on the palace in the F1 screen, and the menu doesn't include the UN! I had assumed that a rushed palace would be fine as a prebuild, but apparently it's not.

1120AD comes round. The palace is now back on the original island, and I've got to build the UN from scratch! Nidaros has a factory and can get it in 18 turns. So I set all productive cities to cavalry, and actually start attacking Egypt, in order to get a great leader. One comes in 1220. And I've just realised that I made a really really stupid mistake. I sent him all the way to Nidaros, instead of just rushing the UN that turn in a nearby town. Two turns later he arrives in Nidaros and I build the UN in 1250, with 6 votes to 1 in favor of me over Abu Bakr(I was surprised not to be up against Cleo, but I'd severely weakened her).

Diplomatic Victory in 1250AD, just over 8000 Jasons.
 
Excuse the double post, but the first was getting a bit long.

Some afterthoughts:

Ammusingly, I and tR1cKy got to fission only one turn apart, though we played quite differently. Had I hand built the palace prebuild instead of rushing it, we would even have tied.

I completely based my research order on the cost of the techs. I just picked the cheapest every time, hoping for 4 turn research as much as possible(which worked excellently). But the AIs gave me no useful techs apart from Feudalism, Monotheism and Medicine. I ought to learn more about AI research priorities.

Am I right that a rushed palace can't be used as a wonder prebuild? Is this a bug?

Beserks are excellent! 6 attack is really good, plus amphibious:king: .

I found out that destroying an opponent when you have a millitary alliance against them counts as breaking that treaty, and you get the rep hit for it!

In the end the better player won. It just shows that there's still a long way to go before I can consider myself a really good player.
I think that if the best bits of mine and tR1cKy's games were put together, a pre-1000AD win could have been feasible.
 
Too bad for the palace rush. I too learned this thing "the hard way" long ago and never forgot it... congratulations, you almost caught up. Actually i think you played a little better than mine - i'm not that big thing in non-military games.
 
I found out that destroying an opponent when you have a millitary alliance against them counts as breaking that treaty, and you get the rep hit for it!

I've seen and participated in a lot of discussions on this topic. In all that talk I don't recall seeing a definitive answer. However, my general understanding was that if the human player "breaks" the MA by killing the enemy civ, there is no rep hit.

I had intentions to test this out, but alas, the spirit is willing but the flesh so weak...:p

Not trying to doubt you, megistatos, but some confirmation of your conclusion would give me peace of mind. :) I'm especially interested if things work the same in C3C.
 
Thanks for pointing this out. I went back to that point in the game to investigate, and found that what I said earlier was wrong.

Testing showed that after destroying a civ, others will still pay the same for Millitary Alliances.

In my game the Alliance was actually tied to a peace treaty, as I was hoping to get for war hapiness out of killing off India. Well now I know that doesn't work. It just counts as a declaration of war.
 
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