Government Structure Run-Off

[Strider]

Lkost badly Blackhole.... Well, posters from both DS and Striders were happy with a compromise. And losing badly 9-8-4 is not a bad loss as such. Only a shift of two-three votes would make this very different, so enough propaganda from you Blackhole. If 2 votes moved from Striders and one vote from DS, it would stand 7-7-7.
Also, the poll was badly flawed, and you know that too, even you pointed it out.
Strider said this was an informational poll. Interestingly enough, only Blackhole, CT and Strider wanted this option out of the loop, where many called for a compromise.

I doubt you'd get many votes moved from mine, you'd more likely be sucking many more from the alternative government. I'm not an idoit, if I thought I would have beable to get away with it I would have added your option for the simple fact that it aids myself.

Also, sense you did not notice, I was one of those 4 who voted for your proposal in the last poll, as was CivGeneral who is also a strong supporter of the tradational government. That would be 2 votes that would have been lost from your proposal already.

BTW, I did support your proposal as both the government structure and a compromise. I left it out to be fair to the majority, not the minority. Your doing nothing, but losing allies.

 

[Provolution]

Strider

Well, I am not thinking about myself here, I try to find a middle ground that people can live with, I have no conflict with you Strider. I more disagree on the dirty tactics used by Blackhole to sabotage every single poll I present, and his interests to squash people like MOTH, Ashburnham, you , CG and several others who may like a more fair middle-ground solution. Frankly, I prefer your Constitution as a base Strider, as it is better written and done than Blackholes. However, where we disagree, and I hope you respect that, is on the merger and division of ministers and so on. I think you are a good constitutionalist Strider, and your craftsmanship is better than Blackholes here, however, the alternate government people do have a very valid point on the accessability and the long term planning in the game.

So my biggest frustration here is with CTs polls and Blackholes dirty argumentation to stop any sort of compromise. We do not even know how many that could go for a compromise due to this tilted process. If the compromise is presented in a fair manner and polled fairly, and loses, I will be happy and stick with the end-result. However, I do not approve of tilted polling. In fact, this run-off poll is not tilted, but as an end-product of CTs tilted poll it is unjust. I set up a compromise poll (attempted sabotaged by Blackhole, as usual) to test this out. And if we do not see the need for a compromise, that has truly shown the opinion of people, and we will see a bipartisan system develop, which I hope not will happen.

Strider, I know you wanted me to split votes for political reasons of the other alternative, but the reason I chose yours as a base over blackholes was the craftsmanship and the finished nature of the product. However, it is a broad support for a reform of government structure, and even your solid work cannot change that.

 

[Black_Hole]

So abstain is a dirty tactic provo? What is the DG coming to...

 

[Strider]

Well, I am not thinking about myself here, I try to find a middle ground that people can live with, I have no conflict with you Strider. I more disagree on the dirty tactics used by Blackhole to sabotage every single poll I present, and his interests to squash people like MOTH, Ashburnham, you , CG and several others who may like a more fair middle-ground solution. Frankly, I prefer your Constitution as a base Strider, as it is better written and done than Blackholes. However, where we disagree, and I hope you respect that, is on the merger and division of ministers and so on. I think you are a good constitutionalist Strider, and your craftsmanship is better than Blackholes here, however, the alternate government people do have a very valid point on the accessability and the long term planning in the game.

If your willing to let me interfere, I will be willing to make the needed edits to your constitution. Ripping one part out and putting another one in, doesn't work exactly as good as you might think it will.

So my biggest frustration here is with CTs polls and Blackholes dirty argumentation to stop any sort of compromise. We do not even know how many that could go for a compromise due to this tilted process. If the compromise is presented in a fair manner and polled fairly, and loses, I will be happy and stick with the end-result. However, I do not approve of tilted polling. In fact, this run-off poll is not tilted, but as an end-product of CTs tilted poll it is unjust. I set up a compromise poll (attempted sabotaged by Blackhole, as usual) to test this out. And if we do not see the need for a compromise, that has truly shown the opinion of people, and we will see a bipartisan system develop, which I hope not will happen.

Well, CT is doing all of the right things the wrong way. She's got the right idea in mind, she just isn't carrying out that idea very well. Needless to say, she is forcing us to move forward, which we do need to do. I don't share many peoples mindset of CT, I believe she is really trying to help, I just think that her ways of helping has grown abit out-dated lately. Add in the fact that her help has been unwanted alot lately and you've got a fairly big mess.

Strider, I know you wanted me to split votes for political reasons of the other alternative, but the reason I chose yours as a base over blackholes was the craftsmanship and the finished nature of the product. However, it is a broad support for a reform of government structure, and even your solid work cannot change that.

As I said above, I will be willing to try and duplicate that "craftsmanship." As you are likely to be using several of my ideas anyway, I have no regrets to making the needed edits, and possibly additions.

 

[Provolution]

Well Strider, what if you made those revisions in another draft, we still have time, seeking to bridge the gap with merged/divided ministries as many called for. "Provolutions" alternative is as much a Strider, DS, MOTH, Ashburnham and several others product. The proposal on government structure was a middle-ground reform where they key was limiting domestic and military, merging science and finance, merging FA-Trade and omitting culture (now governors mission to run culture wars from their provinces).

I know the compromise proposal holds a strong potential support, so abridging DS and Striders proposals with this middleground proposal could give us the needed peace and cooperation.

Personally I plan on being an opposition figure in the newspaper "The Purgatory", so my interest is in a stable system with clear responsibilities.

 

[Black_Hole]

provo you only have 5 hours before nominations start, and it looks like we will be using the alternate government...

 

[Provolution]

Well, the compromise faction will work through amendments, and I concede that this dirty American style way of running political processes won. Well, mistakes will take place, and we have one term to make adjustments to those positions in amendments. The first term is not that critical as FA and culture has almost nothing to do, and the real burden of work is better represented in what will be future amendments. Also, the legitimacy of this process has been far from acceptable, so we will certainly see amendment proposals to the existing government structure on a term basis.

 

[Black_Hole]

this poll is way more legitimate than your poll provo, heres why:
1. Multiple choice, bad for polls that decide one thing.
2. You stripped everyones name off the proposals in your poll, now it is hard to figure out who's proposal is what
3. The language of your options in your poll is complicated
4. Striders poll is simple, yet good

 

[Provolution]

Well, I folded my cards, but we will see in the amendment session. Term one is as we said a no-brainer Term, and we have plenty of time to rectify a couple of legal/poling mishaps. Also, I questioned CTs poll , not Striders poll, but striders poll was based fully on CTs poll



Besides, many of us missed a compromise option.

 

[Bill_in_PDX]

It's really a demogame *cultural* decision regarding which is more valued, the chat or the forums. The chat has been more valued than the forums since the middle of DG1. Most of us who refrain from attending the chat don't really mind you all having a chat and having a blast so long as you give us a chance to play, too! You don't s we lose interest and drift off to do things that are more fun.

Well said, as were your comments regarding getting information to the people in the forums being independant of the government in place.

 

[Strider]

Well Strider, what if you made those revisions in another draft, we still have time, seeking to bridge the gap with merged/divided ministries as many called for. "Provolutions" alternative is as much a Strider, DS, MOTH, Ashburnham and several others product. The proposal on government structure was a middle-ground reform where they key was limiting domestic and military, merging science and finance, merging FA-Trade and omitting culture (now governors mission to run culture wars from their provinces).

I know the compromise proposal holds a strong potential support, so abridging DS and Striders proposals with this middleground proposal could give us the needed peace and cooperation.

Personally I plan on being an opposition figure in the newspaper "The Purgatory", so my interest is in a stable system with clear responsibilities.

Okay, I am completed with a fully operational form of the constitution. I've made all the needed edits, modified many parts, and made several additions.

I would send it VIA PM, but unluckily it would take 7 PM's to send. So I'm just going to tell you that it is for the most part done.

 

[Provolution]

Sorry Strider, it seems the Compromise attempts was overrun with unfair practices.
All we can do, is to be fair to the Daveshack-Blackhole solution, and see how it works, and then make some amendments within Term One.

 

[Donovan Zoi]

Question: does this poll alone imply ratification of the winning Constitution? Or do we still have to endure a ratification process?

When you consider this poll ends on the second-to-last day of the month, this could be a major isue. Or at least it should. Then again, this is such a divisve issue that we may not be able to reach ratification levels anyway.

Add to this that we have ratfification of a completely different set of rules going on at the same time, and you see where there is cause for confusion. Which rules will prevail?

 

[Donovan Zoi]

It's also interesting to note that we have 4 voters who are not signed onto the Citizen Registry.

For Strider's Plan: Lecky
For Alternative Plan: Luxborg, Vietcong, eyrei (!!)

If this is not resolved, then the results go from 21-15 to 18-14. Not too significant, but something worth mentioning.

 

[MOTH]

It's also interesting to note that we have 4 voters who are not signed onto the Citizen Registry.

For Strider's Plan: Lecky
For Alternative Plan: Luxborg, Vietcong, eyrei (!!)

If this is not resolved, then the results go from 21-15 to 18-14. Not too significant, but something worth mentioning.

Yes, but remember that this poll started when we were still on the DG5 Citizen's registry. I think that at least Luxborg and Eyrie were both registered on that list at the time they voted.

 

[Black_Hole]

Question: does this poll alone imply ratification of the winning Constitution? Or do we still have to endure a ratification process?

When you consider this poll ends on the second-to-last day of the month, this could be a major isue. Or at least it should. Then again, this is such a divisve issue that we may not be able to reach ratification levels anyway.

Add to this that we have ratfification of a completely different set of rules going on at the same time, and you see where there is cause for confusion. Which rules will prevail?

no way, who would want that piece of crap constitution I created as the actual constitution?

 

[Strider]

Question: does this poll alone imply ratification of the winning Constitution? Or do we still have to endure a ratification process?

When you consider this poll ends on the second-to-last day of the month, this could be a major isue. Or at least it should. Then again, this is such a divisve issue that we may not be able to reach ratification levels anyway.

Add to this that we have ratfification of a completely different set of rules going on at the same time, and you see where there is cause for confusion. Which rules will prevail?

Well, either way we are in a jam. If we were to follow the rules we set out before the game starts, then one of the proposals will have to reach atlest 60% of the current census. Currently, neither proposals have 60% of people who voted, so I doubt either of them even has half of the current census.

Edit: Also, I'd consider this official enough. A yes vote for one proposals is a no vote for the other one.

 

[MOTH]

Actually, the 60% was that 60% must vote in the poll and a 50+% for an option would pass, not that an option needed 60% of the census to vote for it.

Edit: looks like you already note that.

 

[Strider]

I did the math real quick, currently among the current census it stands like this:

Daveshacks alternative with 38.48% of the vote
Striders Tradational with 24.19% of the vote
Abstain with 6.45% of the vote.

So 30.88% of the population still has not voted. Enough either proposal to win.

 

[snipelfritz]

both structures seem good, but I'm up for something different.