[R&F] Governors are kind of immersion breaking.

[leif erikson]

Moderator Action: Please get back to topic. This thread is not for discussion of current issues of multiculturalism.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Sagax]

No, that would be immersion breaking.

The general point is, if you want more historical simulation then play a game that is a historical simulation. EU is that, Civ is not. Civ uses history as a theme, but at no point does it ever try to be an accurate presentation of actual history. So its like getting mad at a screwdriver for not being a good hammer.

EU is much less focused on city-building and doesn't allow you to enjoy the progress of your civilization on a micro level as much as Civ does. You're proposing to replace a screwdriver with a saw - still not the hammer that's needed for the job.

There is certainly an itch that neither EU nor Civ scratches as fully as some players desire - a history simulation game that is more focused on actual city-building and allows you to see how your nation grows from the humble beginnings of a small tribe. Civ 5 tapped into this realm by looking more realistic than its predecessors, and I think it attracted quite a number of players that have been craving for this particular niche. But now, with Civ 6 gong back more to its "board game" style, we can see the divide in what players seek from the franchise.

More on topic: it looks like there are several issues with the governor system when players claim that it's immersion-breaking, and lumping them all together seems to just add confusion to the discussion:

1. Governors not being from your civ. I personally have no issue with this one. We don't yet know when you can earn your first governor (or do we?) If it becomes available starting from Medieval era, then I'm not that concerned - by that time there were plenty of real life nations that had foreigners in their courts in one capacity or another.

2. Governors being from civs not in the game. This is a grey area, and really up to one's imagination and limits of immersion. I personally can turn a blind eye and assume they are coming from City State migrants of similar cultures. IMO, this aspect in particular is the one where you can't straight out reject it while accepting the fact that your Great People, and especially GWAMs, are all over the place.

3. Same governors/personalities being available to all civs. I can see this one being somewhat silly, and it could've been an easy fix. In fact, I think it would've been easier for them to just name governors as "The Castellan", "The Surveyor", etc. instead of having to come up with names. They clearly wanted to give the governors a bit more personality without having to come up with art assets every time they come up with a new civ. Maybe they do think of governors as spiritual successors of advisors, but didn't consider the shoft in the role's significance.

4. They look waaay too cartoony. Guess we'll have to swallow it... although I can see them growing on you eventually. Except for Pingala - you can't just remove Teddy's cheeks and stitch it to another guy...

 

[drubell]

I'm not continuing a discussion that insists that a governor should have a certain skin color for me to debate a point.

This thread from a few months ago is pretty good about Civ 6 and immersion on general:

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/we-are-winning-they-fear-us.620767/

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Remember when Elvis Presley was your entertainment advisor in Civ 2?

I consider these guys to be the spiritual successor to stuff like that. Very over-the-top, but in a fun way.

Boy would I love to see the Civ2 advisors make a comeback .

 

[Icicle]

It seems like an option to rename and select a portrait would solve this. But on the other hand I think they have specific name/image so that when you see one in your enemy city you know what's going on there at just a glance, which is the sort of UI simplicity that Civ 6 needs more of.

As someone who enjoys the immersion of civ games I can just pretend they're someone else, fixes it for me.

 

[Trengilly]

We don't yet know when you can earn your first governor (or do we?)

We do - they come very early. One point at State Workforce and another at Early Empire. And I believe the government district (with another point) comes very early also.

Because you are going to be playing with the governors all game long they wanted to give them personality. I think this was a good idea - as having a picture and name (that is the same every time you play) will help people (especially casual players) get to learn who they are. Having civ specific names/images would make them impossible to remember and be resource prohibitive. Spies have custom names - but I'll be darned if I ever notice or remember them. I have no problem with them being multicultural - there have always been foreign advisers and such throughout history.

Change I would make: Display them on map with a icon rather than the face picture - this way your opponents won't look like they are using your governors and you never need to see their name for AI civs - just "the Castilian" and their icon.

Modding - they made a point of saying that we could mod in new/alternate governors (or abilities) and could have more or less of them. But I'm betting that all the civs will have access to the full pool of governors. I doubt it will be possible (or at least easy) to create separate ones for different civs

 

[cakes]

It's not about discussions, it's about immersion within the game.

...

Because as others have pointed out, it makes no sense at all to play as Kongo or something similar, and then have a governor who is white and has a British name.

It makes perfect sense within a game world that doesn't make sense though. Do you lose immersion when there's no nice spectrum of skin colour across a pangaea map? 'Immersion' shouldn't be used as shorthand for saying 'corresponds directly to real-world history'. Maybe you'll just get used to it and become immersed when you're not just overthinking and nitpicking the game in the months leading up to its release and actually playing it.

 

[Ryika]

It makes perfect sense within a game world that doesn't make sense though. Do you lose immersion when there's no nice spectrum of skin colour across a pangaea map? 'Immersion' shouldn't be used as shorthand for saying 'corresponds directly to real-world history'. Maybe you'll just get used to it and become immersed when you're not just overthinking and nitpicking the game in the months leading up to its release and actually playing it.

If you're playing a nation of black people, and don't have access to white people, then where did that white person come from? Doesn't make sense at all in the context of Civilizations that are of different ethnicities. We even just got ethnic units in the base game to deepen the immersion when it comes to that, and then Governors throw that idea right out of the window.

That skin colors of the Civs are not based on exposure to sun on the other hand, is entirely fine, as the expected level of immersion is not "melanin simulator sandbox", it's "A Civ represents an ethnicity". Governors as they were presented do not fit that theme at all (and as I said before, Great People don't either, but at least they're not in your face all the time).

But yeah, like I also said before... it's not a big issue overall. We're making it seem like it's a big issue in this discussion, but that's because it's a big discussion about a small issue, that we're talking about in very big detail. For me personally, it's still symbolic for a design philosophy that I dislike.

 

[Dustbrother]

3. Same governors/personalities being available to all civs. I can see this one being somewhat silly, and it could've been an easy fix. In fact, I think it would've been easier for them to just name governors as "The Castellan", "The Surveyor", etc. instead of having to come up with names. They clearly wanted to give the governors a bit more personality without having to come up with art assets every time they come up with a new civ. Maybe they do think of governors as spiritual successors of advisors, but didn't consider the shoft in the role's significance.

This! Very well put.

 

[nzcamel]

The Civilization series is a representation of a world, not our world.

Giving the governors unique names would make it virtually impossible for us to discuss the governors on these forums, for a start. So the only other reasonable option to address this complaint would've been for the governors not to have names at all. Firaxis apparently decided that giving them names helped the game, so they did.

Incidentally, if Firaxis HADN'T given them names, then I imagine the major complaint would've been that Victor's portrait would not fit in a civ like Kongo or something. So Firaxis can't win either way.

I don't recall people complaining about how the advisors in Civ 5 looked, despite the fact some of them might not be "immersive" to some civs. Maybe people have forgotten about the Civ 5 advisors at this point?

Yeah the advisers weren't in game (neither were Civ II's as in they had no impact on game play; though they'd still be an unwelcome return for me if it was the same roster no matter which Civ you play).

The governors have titles as well as names and these suffice for discussions in forums. I don't need to say Victor - I can say the Castellan.

Give them an "Advisor Type" that is fixed, and a randomized name. Not that hard, really.


The Civ 5 advisors are not really part of the game. You don't have to interact with them, you won't ever see them unless you want to see their advice, which you will never do, unless you're a total beginner. They do run into the same problem with immersion but... not really, because I never have to see them.

In Civ 6, they will be on the screen all the time.

But to be honest, I don't think it's much of a problem in itself, it's just symbolic of the Civ 6 design philosophy that I dislike.

This ^^^^ 100%

 

[agonistes]

It seems like an option to rename and select a portrait would solve this. But on the other hand I think they have specific name/image so that when you see one in your enemy city you know what's going on there at just a glance, which is the sort of UI simplicity that Civ 6 needs more of.

As someone who enjoys the immersion of civ games I can just pretend they're someone else, fixes it for me.

I think this too: that the portraits are mostly so you can see what the ai is up to. And too I guess there are some folks who wouldn't be able to remember where their governors are, and what they do, without the portrait?

I dislike the governor names and portraits - to the point I'm considering not buying the expansion... and I've been waiting for Basil's for 20 years!

But I expect the images and names will be modded out by a few different people.

I'm also not impressed by the timeline, although until I saw it I thought it would be cool.

Hmmm... aside from Basil's and the civs, this xpac isn't doing it for me. I see more negatives than positives.

 

[nzcamel]

I think this too: that the portraits are mostly so you can see what the ai is up to. And too I guess there are some folks who wouldn't be able to remember where their governors are, and what they do, without the portrait?

I dislike the governor names and portraits - to the point I'm considering not buying the expansion... and I've been waiting for Basil's for 20 years!

But I expect the images and names will be modded out by a few different people.

I'm also not impressed by the timeline, although until I saw it I thought it would be cool.

Hmmm... aside from Basil's and the civs, this xpac isn't doing it for me. I see more negatives than positives.

I think it has a lot of potential...but could be too much flashiness.

i.e. The golden age/dark age just feels like it will come to dominate the game. I'd rather that it was hard to be in anything but a normal age for the majority of the game; but it looks like normal ages will be the rare state to be in

 

[malekithau]

I would have preferred generic governors - no pictures just roles.

 

[Duuk]

I think the devs may have gotten too excited about a feature and made it cooler than it needed to be. They've already said that the governor list is moddable, so they probably thought of it as so very cool...

...when probably 3/4 of everyone would have been fine with "Great People 2.0" with types of governors and civ-related names.

 

[AriochIV]

I don't think renaming the female African diplomat "Otto" is going to help with immersion.

I also don't think making 7 distinct character illustrations for each of 34 civilizations is really a viable option.

 

[Mr. Shadows]

I get it, "Viktor" isn't a name that came from China... or Japan or.... but geeze are we complaining about game elements we haven't even played with yet?

 

[Depravo]

This line of thought has been prevalent on the forum ever since the governors were revealed, but honestly, how are they any different at breaking immersion than the various great people that one can employ?
This is the very game where playing as Philip 2 of Spain you can recruit Francis Drake as an admiral for you!

It's easier to ignore that but as others have mentioned, your governor and your rival's identical governor could be working against each other in

I don't think renaming the female African diplomat "Otto" is going to help with immersion.

I also don't think making 7 distinct character illustrations for each of 34 civilizations is really a viable option.

That was based on all the bobbleheads being replaced with generic symbols, as I'm certain a mod will swiftly do.

 

[Zenstrive]

This game, you can have admiral that can transform into battleship at medieval age. It's already ridiculous.

 

[Chasethemage]

What about if the governors will have slight clothing change but the same face shape (for example: if you play as China, Pingala the educator will wear a Mandarin hat instead of a turban and his name changed to a Chinese one, but will have that same pear shaped face or Liang the surveyor will look more like Delores Umbridge when playing as a European Civ)
That might be a good suggestion

 

[Thormodr]

What about if the governors will have slight clothing change but the same face shape (for example: if you play as China, Pingala the educator will wear a Mandarin hat instead of a turban and his name changed to a Chinese one, but will have that same pear shaped face or Liang the surveyor will look more like Delores Umbridge when playing as a European Civ)
That might be a good suggestion

I was thinking something along the lines of this. Similar shape but different ethnicity/clothing style.

However, change the Eggplant governor to something more realistic.